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Message started by ojoeboy on Apr 4th, 2005 at 5:29pm

Title: Image only works on its original machine
Post by ojoeboy on Apr 4th, 2005 at 5:29pm
My tech said he built an HP DC7100SFF(hereafter known as  SFF) with all the usual software for our network platform based on Win XP Pro SP2. He removed the HDD and put it in an HP DC7100CMT(hereafter known as CMT) because it has more room ( being a tower version).

He ran ghost on the CMT and applied the SFF image to another SFF HDD. He took the second SFF HDD and stuck it back in its own SFF machine. He turned it on and got the starting Windows XP screen then a black screen with a blinking cursor in the top left. He said that he has done this same procedure before with other computers and had no problems. Only certain models do this. Any ideas?

He says he has never had to use any switches. :-/

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Poncho on Apr 4th, 2005 at 6:25pm
Restored images usually only work on the machine they were created on unless the hardware is identical. It's like trying to make a Chevy engine work in a Ford. Sometimes you might be able to make it work, but usually not.

There are some tricks, such as deleting all the hardware before creating the last image, and letting Windows find and install all the new hardware from the new machine. But this never worked for me.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by ojoeboy on Apr 5th, 2005 at 10:21am
Okay, I'm not explaining myself well enough.

A computer arrived with XP on it. My tech added Office and other platform-specific software to it. It was ready to go on the floor for an employee to use; however, its harddrive was removed, put into another computer and Ghosted to another harddrive from an exact same model computer.

So, "Computer A"'s HDD is Ghosted to "Computer C"'s HDD from within "Computer B". "Computer A" and "Computer C" are identical computers with identical parts and configuration.
"Computer B" gets involved because "Computer A" and "Computer C" are Small Form Factor computers and only accommodate one HDD comfortably. "Computer B" is a tower that can hold 4 or 5 HDDs.

In a nutshell, "Computer A"'s image should work on "Computer C" but it don't. Blinking cursor.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by ezboy on Apr 5th, 2005 at 12:09pm
After restoring the image try doing a restore with the Windows CD. Sometimes HP puts proprietary boot files on their machines that might cause trouble. A Windows restore should fix if that is the cause.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Christer on Apr 5th, 2005 at 2:04pm
Was the cloning done (1) from within Windows or (2) from Ghost Boot Disks?

If (1), then the computer B was automatically restarted with two identical harddisks (after cloning one to the other) installed. Windows reassigns a different volume identification to one of the harddisks and that harddisk will not boot.

If (2) and the computer B was "reset" after completion, then the same applies as above.

Use method (2) but when completed, do not let Ghost "reset" the computer but turn it off on the power switch and remove the "temporary" harddisks. When installed separately in different computers, they should boot.

Christer

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Christer on Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:13am
Any good news to share ...... ;) ...... we're all interested!

Christer

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by voclizr on Apr 12th, 2005 at 11:36pm
Makes me wonder.  When I have to replace my HDD, I was hoping I could use the ghost image to restore the new HDD.  Do you think I'll get away with this if I don't change any other hardware?
      JB : :o

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Christer on Apr 13th, 2005 at 3:01am
I have cloned a few HDDs, Disk to Disk and it worked well. My experience is to NOT start the computer with two identical (after cloning) HDDs installed but remove one HDD before restarting (or letting Ghost reset) the computer. Either of the two clones should work well on its own. It's only when Windows detects the identical HDDs that it goes sour.

Christer

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by ojoeboy on Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:44am
:P The target HDD had a 8MB 1st partition presumably put there by HP. My tech fdisk'd the drive and created on big partition. He then was able to ghost it successfully. Not the best plan but it worked.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by PJ on Apr 13th, 2005 at 1:06pm
Thanks for the follow up. I am looking to do the same.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by NightOwl on Apr 14th, 2005 at 2:25am
ojoeboy

I ran across something that may explain the problem you had with imaging the HP that has a special 'utility partition' for restoring the machine to it's original state.

It said for some systems like Dell, HP, and Compaq Server--you may have to use a command line switch for Ghost that forces the clone operation to copy the whole boot track, not just the first part of the boot sector.

The switch is '-IB'.


Quote:
When creating an image or copying disk to disk, the -IB switch (Image Boot) forces a sector-by-sector copy, and copies the entire boot track; not just the boot sector.

Use this switch when applications, such as some boot-time utilities, use the boot track to store information.

You cannot perform partition-to-partition or partition-to-image operations with the -IB switch.
Partition sizes cannot be altered when using the -IB switch.


There is some interesting information about Dell's utility partition here:

http://www.goodells.net/dellutil/

You can find more information about Ghost 2003 switches here:

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/ghost.nsf/8f7dc138830563c888256c2200662ecd/79d3d9ff21211e7a88256d1600730eb3?

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by aramlie on Aug 30th, 2005 at 12:19pm
I've got a similar question about an image working only on its original machine, but not quite.

I have 2 identical machines (both with internal 80GB HDD + IEEE 250GB HDD), installed with exactly the same OS and programs. The only difference is that Machine A's 80GB internal HDD was not partitioned and Machine B's was partitioned into 2 (Partition 1: 20GB + Partition 2: 60GB). The OS (Windows XP) on Machine B was installed on Partition 1 (20GB).

The internal HDD of both machines contain only OS and program files. The OS and programs take up approx. 12GB. All data files and documents reside on the external 250GB HDD.

Over the course of the last year that I've had these machines, I have found that as time passes, Machine A seems to boot up slower and slower than Machine B. Programs also ran much faster on Machine B than on A. As I added more programs to the two machines, the speed difference increases. It didn't occur to me what was going on until I read "Partitioning Strategies" on http://partition.radified.com/

Now my question is, can I "renovate" Machine A's HDD? What I'd like to do is to (i) Ghost an image of Machine A's OS on its currently unpartitioned 80GB HDD; (ii) reformat Machine A's HDD; (iii) repartition it exactly like Machine B's (20GB + 60GB); and then (iv) transfer the image of the original Machine A OS (imaged from its unpartitioned 80GB HDD) onto the reformatted and partitioned 20GB partition.

Has anyone done this before? Will images created with Ghost 2003 from a larger sized HDD work on a smaller sized HDD on the same machine (assuming of course that the size of the image fits comfortably into the smaller sized HDD)?

Any advice will be much appreciated.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by NightOwl on Aug 30th, 2005 at 12:48pm
aramlie

The procedure you outline should work okay.

But,


Quote:
It didn't occur to me what was going on until I read "Partitioning Strategies" on http://partition.radified.com/  


I'm curious--what do you think *is going on*?  Based on your description--both systems are *identical*, except one has a second partition--why do you think the second partition is helping improve the speed of that machine?

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Christer on Aug 30th, 2005 at 4:34pm
In days past, when harddisks were considerably slower than today, it was a "speed tweak" to limit the size of the system partition. On FAT32, it was recommended to limit the system partition to below 8 GB to get 4 kB cluster size to match the pages of the pagefile to make it faster.

The benefit with modern harddisks shouldn't be that pronounced, especially on NTFS.

Machine B has the system partition limited to the fastest 25% of the harddisk. This also means that WinXP can not move files as far back, when doing its "background defragmentation", on machine B as on machine A.

It all adds to the speed but as I said earlier, it shouldn't be that pronounced.

Christer

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by aramlie on Aug 31st, 2005 at 3:25am
First of all, thank you both for the swift response!

Nightowl: you asked
Quote:
I'm curious--what do you think *is going on*?


I think Christer gave a good explanation of it. I suspect that because the programs that I have installed on Machine A are spread all over the unpartitioned 80GB HDD, the head, physically, jumps all over the 80GB HDD to extract bits of file to run a program, whereas on Machine B, the OS and programs are confined to the fastest 25% of the HDD, and the head has a smaller area, on the fastest part of the HDD, to cover

But as Christer points out:
Quote:
The benefit with modern harddisks shouldn't be that pronounced, especially on NTFS.


Christer (or Nightowl): is it right then for me to infer from your (Christer's) remark above that there may be some other factor causing the perceivable speed difference between 2 "identical" machines, other than the difference in the way their HDDs are partitioned? And that it may not be worth the risk and time to "renovate" the HDD on Machine A by merely adding a partition and reinserting a Ghost image? I highly value your unput. Thanks!

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Brian on Aug 31st, 2005 at 3:46am
Aramlie,

I've also partitioned as suggested by Rad.

Why don't you consider defragging A, imaging A (for safety, not planning to use the image).

Then resize the partition on A back to 20 GB. Defrag. See how it compares to B.


Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Christer on Aug 31st, 2005 at 6:18am
My ideas on the speed difference is pure speculation. I have never had the opportunity to compare two, in other respects, identical machines. Maybe the speed difference is as significant as You perceive it to be.

If You "rate" the perceived speed difference, giving machine B a 10 (ten), what would be the rating for machine A?

I would think (speculating again) 9-10 or possibly 8-9 since You have no user files on machine A, only the same system files and program files as on machine B.

On Brians note:

How often do You defragment?

Do You use the WinXP defragmenter or a third party tool?

If the former, download Diskeeper Lite and see what effect a better defragmenter has on the situation.

Christer

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by NightOwl on Aug 31st, 2005 at 10:57am
aramlie


Quote:
is it right then for me to infer from your (Christer's) remark above that there may be some other factor causing the perceivable speed difference between 2 "identical" machines, other than the difference in the way their HDDs are partitioned?


That was the point I was trying to get to--I was wondering if you were defragmenting your large HDD?

If you check out the fragmentation--report back with the current level of fragmentation on each machine!

I use Norton's Speed Disk on a regular basis--basically I never allow the fragmentation to go beyond 10 %.  It shows a disk layout map and after defragmenting, all the files are at the beginning of the partition and not scattered throughout the partition.

I have seen in various places that defragmenting with a *modern* HDD is *no longer necessary*--I personally don't see where that recommendation is coming from, but....  ;)


Quote:
And that it may not be worth the risk and time to "renovate" the HDD on Machine A by merely adding a partition and reinserting a Ghost image?


To be *perfectly selfish*  ;) --that would be an interesting experiment and I'd like to see the result!  I'd like to see what happens, first, to the perceived speed (responsiveness) after defragmenting, then what the perceived speed is after re-partitioning to match the other machine.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by aramlie on Aug 31st, 2005 at 11:40am
Admittedly, I don't defrag either machine, or actually, defrag them once in say 6 months or so (when the moon is blue). Since I bought the machines in April last year, I have defraged both twice. I use MS Disk Defragmenter (again admittedly not the best defrag tool around). Looking at the Defrag Analysis Report, "Total fragmentation" is 9%, "File fragmentation" is 19% on Machine A. On Machine B, "Total fragmentation" is 7% and "File fragmentation" is 15%. Bearing in mind that one is reading off a 80GB partitition and another is reading off a 20GB partition (not so apple to apple).

Speed-wise, the biggest perceivable difference between the 2 machines is during startup. I would rate Machine A 6-7 on startup, if Machine B is 10. This is based on gut feel, I haven't actually used a stopwatch to time the difference. However, program response times vary on the 2 machines.

I stopped using Norton Speed Disk when I stopped using Norton Systemworks, which was installed in a previous machine that I had. I have never installed a copy of Norton Systemworks on the present machines. I disliked Norton Systemworks, because it seems to cause a lot of system instability on my previous machine and slowed down my startup time considerably (on Windows 2K).

In any case, I am one of those lazy people who blindly follow the advice that
Quote:
defragmenting with a *modern* HDD is *no longer necessary*
, I suppose purely out of convenience and/or laziness.

To satisfy my (and NightOwl's) curiosity, I'd like to do the experiment (I'll clock the speeds before and after) when I have spare time (hopefully soon), and when I can get Ghost 2003 to work with my external IEEE HDD (also hopefully soon). I will post the results back here.

Meanwhile, I will take Christer's and Brian's advice and defrag. Thanks for the link to Diskeeper Lite, Christer! Very kind of you.

PS. If anyone has any clue as to where I can get a PC-DOS driver for a generic IEEE PCMCIA card, so that Ghost 2003 in PC-DOS can recognize my IEEE HDD, I would very much appreciate a pointer.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by daniel brennan on Nov 17th, 2005 at 1:45pm
Now my question is, can I "renovate" Machine A's HDD? What I'd like to do is to (i) Ghost an image of Machine A's OS on its currently unpartitioned 80GB HDD; (ii) reformat Machine A's HDD; (iii) repartition it exactly like Machine B's (20GB + 60GB); and then (iv) transfer the image of the original Machine A OS (imaged from its unpartitioned 80GB HDD) onto the reformatted and partitioned 20GB partition.

Maybe too late to bother making this point, but....

you don't need to use ghost at all to move the contents of the 80G drive onto a 20G partition.
using an utility such as partition magic (and there are probably others),
you can create a partition around os/programs that you have installed. it is non-destructive. you simply specify how much space should be created after the new partition and pm moves all files into the allotted space (assuming it's big enough).
i've done it a few times and never had a problem.

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by Rad on Nov 19th, 2005 at 11:41am
I included the link to Diskeeper Lite in the Freeware guide:

http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=1207

http://radified.com/Articles/freeware.htm

Title: Re: Image only works on its original machine
Post by aramlie on Dec 1st, 2005 at 8:46pm

wrote on Nov 17th, 2005 at 1:45pm:
you don't need to use ghost at all to move the contents of the 80G drive onto a 20G partition.
using an utility such as partition magic (and there are probably others),
you can create a partition around os/programs that you have installed. it is non-destructive. you simply specify how much space should be created after the new partition and pm moves all files into the allotted space (assuming it's big enough).
i've done it a few times and never had a problem.


Daniel, Thanks for the the suggestion. It sounds a whole lot simpler than reinstalling or ghosting then copying O/S. Which PM function do you use to do this? I use PM v8.0, and it sounds as if you're describing a "Resize Partitions" operation. Is that right?

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