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Message started by Ghost4me.John on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 1:12pm

Title: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 1:12pm
Does anyone know of any master boot record (mbr) sector utility that will clear or erase the DiskID field on an external USB hard drive?

Several problems relating to Ghost 9/10 Copy Drive feature or Ghost 9/10 backup/restore feature depend upon booting from the Ghost emergency boot Recovery Environment CD.  As discussed by Dan Goodell in other threads and at his website, booting problems and recognition problems often occur because the DiskID field on the new drive (or external drive) conflict with the new boot environment.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

I've read about ways to clear the DiskID field on internal hard drives, but never for an external USB drive.

Any suggestions or ideas?  Most sector utilities are DOS based and do not or will not touch a USB drive.  I've never seen a Windows XP utility that will modify the boot record for an external USB drive.




Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive ?
Post by Dan Goodell on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 5:35pm
"Most sector utilities are DOS based and do not or will not touch a USB drive.  I've never seen a Windows XP utility that will modify the boot record for an external USB drive."

How about trying Roadkil's NT-based Sector Editor?

I don't use external HDDs so don't have much experience with them, and the few I have tried were natively recognized by the bios when booted to DOS (Dell Dimension 4700's, 9100, 9150).


Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive ?
Post by NightOwl on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 5:41pm
Ghost4me.John

This will most likely work with your USB HDD--just substitute for Ghost with the DOS based disk editor:

A Better USB 2.0 DOS Driver for Ghost + More!

If you have Norton SystemWorks 2003 (and probably earlier versions), you can find a nice DOS disk editor by Symantec on the installation CD here:

X:\NU\DISKEDIT.EXE

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 7:23pm
Thanks again Dan!  I successfully reset the DiskID of my external USB disk drive!!!  

For reference, here are Dan's links:

Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters

Before the change, my external drive letter was k: and after the change, I rebooted XP, and when it restarted the drive letter was f: (which is the next available unused drive letter in my PC).

Here is the procedure I used with Sectedit from roadkil.
http://www.roadkil.net/Sectedit.html

All operations are used from Windows XP.  Caution, use with care!

After starting Sectedit, I got a menu asking for "Select Disk".
 Choices were Logical C, Logical D, Logical E, and Physical 2.



On my PC, Physical 2 is my external USB drive (I have two internal IDE drives). If you have more than one external drives connected and powered on, Sectedit may show Physical 2 and Physical 3, etc.  Best to power off any unneeded USB drives before running Sectedit so you don't accidently change the wrong USB drive.

DiskID is four bytes long and is located at sector address hex 01B8 through 01BB.  In this case it contains the values of:  BE E7 FC AF



For backup and safety, write down and save the contents of locations 01B8 through 01BB!  Note the screenshot above shows the results from my DiskID.  Your contents will be different, but at same locations ( 01B8 01B9 01BA 01BB )

Change/type over:   BE E7 FC AF  to   00 00 00 00

File/Save Sector

Exit

Shut down PC

Retest your Ghost 10 emergency Recovery Environment boot CD.  Ghost 10 should see the USB drive now as an "new unassigned drive" and will give it a compatible drive letter that Ghost 10 chooses.  

Reboot

Note new drive letter assigned by XP.

I think this will be an invaluable tool to fix Ghost 10 Recovery Environment boot CD issues that are caused by conflicting drive letter assignments stored on the external USB hard drive DiskID.

Credit for information on this to Dan Goodell at
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Brian on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 9:58pm
John, I'm still not clear on how this differs from changing the drive letter from K: to F: in Disk Management. Once changed to F: it will keep that letter.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 23rd, 2006 at 10:06pm
After clearing the DiskID, you don't use Disk Management to change it back.  You shut down, then boot from the Ghost 10 RE CD.  Ghost 10 RE will see it as an "unassigned" drive.  The RE will then be free to assign an appropriate drive letter and signature that works for the RE.

After the Ghost 10 RE restore, you can reset it back to some low drive letter (not z though!)

This is only a temporary workaround until Symantec fixes their boot cd pre-environment logic.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Brian on Feb 24th, 2006 at 12:40am
I'm with you now. I misunderstood your previous post and wondered why you wanted to change from K: to F: in Windows.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 24th, 2006 at 4:35am
Clearing the DiskID is essentially Method #3 ("Kawecki's Trick") as outlined by Dan Goodell, but instead of using Method #3 with fdisk /mbr for an internal IDE drive, you use Sectedit to do the same thing for an external USB drive .

Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters
http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.htm

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2006 at 5:57am
John, in your Reply #3, could you explain what hex 01B8 means? How does that correlate with BE E7 FC AF?

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 6:56am
In the screenshot above, the physical address of each byte in the sector is shown in the list on the left.  the contents of those sector addresses are then displayed across the screenshot.

It starts with the first sector addresses of 0000 (and reading left to right on the first line) through 000f.

The second line continues 0010 through 001f.
etc.

The address with the highlighted yellow starts with 01B0 and continuing through 01BF

The contents of locaton 01B0 are hex 00

The contents of location 01B8 are hex BE
The contents of location 01B9 are hex E7
The contents of location 01B9 are hex FC
The contents of location 01B9 are hex AF

For convenience, stated this way:

The contents of the sector beginning with location 01B8 are BE E7 FC AF

Those four bytes are the DiskID, which must be zero'd to reset the drive signature and drive letter.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 26th, 2006 at 4:47pm
Ghost4me.John

Thanks for your ongoing research into this problem with Ghost 10's Recovery CD and USB HDD's.

I'm reporting back with the results of my testing on a DOS based disk editor to access a USB HDD to erase it's disk id:

Erase DiskID on external USB drive--Reply #2

I suggested Symantec's *DiskEdit* program in reply #2 above as one option, but because not everyone will have access to that, I also looked around for something that's available to download from the Net.

Dan Goodell's site has a page which lists some useful utilities, one of which is a DOS based, freeware, disk edititing program--*PTS Disk Editor*:

Useful Tools for Our Project

Download PTS Disk Editor here:  PTS Disk Editor

(Be careful with this program--it is live and HOT--it will edit your HDD if you make a change and tell it to save the changes!--no warnings!!!  Symantec's *DiskEdit* program starts in *Read Only* mode, and you have to manually change it to allow for writing to a disk.)

I used my DOS boot disk with the Panasonic USB DOS drivers on it to boot to the A:\ prompt.  I had saved the *PTS Disk Editor* program file (de.exe) to my G:\ partition, so did a drive change from A:\ to G:\ by typing *g:* at the A:\ prompt.

At the G:\ prompt, typed *de.exe* and got this:



I have two internal HDD's (drives 1 and 2), and I have two USB 2.0 external HDD's hooked up to a powered USB 2.0 Hub (drives 3 and 4).

I then selected drive #4, my Iomega USB 2.0 40 GB external HDD:



I went to Sector 62, which is where Ghost 2003 *marks* a HDD the first time it sees that HDD (in DOS, you can refuse to let Ghost 2003 *mark* the HDD, but if using the Windows interface--you must let Ghost 2003 *mark* the HDD, or else it will not allow you to proceed with the Ghost procedure you're setting up).

I then zeroed out the Ghost 2003 *marking*, and replaced it with *IOMEGA USB 2 HDD* to test if the disk editor would properly write to a USB HDD in DOS:



Everything worked without any problems.

I also tested the Symantec *DiskEdit.exe* DOS disk editor program, and it worked just fine as well:





This is my other USB HDD--I have never allowed Ghost 2003 to *mark* this HDD, so you see that Sector 62 is *empty*--all *zeroes*.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 26th, 2006 at 5:01pm
Ghost4me.John

You might be wondering why I have gone on about the *Sector 62* in my last post--I have an ulterior motive  ;) !

You have used editing the USB's disk ID to force Ghost 10 to re-assign drive letters when you boot the Ghost 10 Recovery Disk.  Editing the disk ID also means you will have to re-assign the disk drive letter in WinXP as well, if you want it to be a particular drive letter.

As I mentioned before in this other thread:

Ghost 10 Recovery CD problems--Reply #17


Ghost 10 Recovery CD problems--Reply #23


I think Symantec must be writing to the external HDD, code that *remembers* the drive letter assignment of the USB HDD that is seen while in WinXP--and is trying to have that same drive letter show up in the *Recovery Environment* when you boot the *Recovery Disk*.

Can you check Sector 62 on your USB HDD, using the *Sectedit* program from Roadkil, to see if Symantec's Ghost 10 is recording any code to that Sector 62 that might be allowing it to remember the WinXP drive letter assignment of the USB HDD?

If it is, it may be possible to edit that Sector 62, zeroing it out, rather than editing the disk ID in order to force Ghost 10's Recovery Disk to assign useable drive letters to the USB HDD.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 5:10pm
Nightowl,

Thanks for the clarification and information.  I stand corrected about DOS utilities not being able to write directly to physical sectors on USB drives.

Now users have 3 programs that can be used:

PTS Disk Editor (DOS based if DOS USB drivers used)
Symantec DiskEdit (DOS based if DOS USB drivers used)
roadkil Sectedit (XP based)


Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 5:38pm

Quote:
You have used editing the USB's disk ID to force Ghost 10 to re-assign drive letters when you boot the Ghost 10 Recovery Disk.  Editing the disk ID also means you will have to re-assign the disk drive letter in WinXP as well, if you want it to be a particular drive letter.

I don't think Ghost 10 is re-assigning drive letters when booting from the RE cd.  It's the Windows Pre-Environment.  Unfortunately what I discovered several months ago was that if the Pre-Environment found z: as the assigned drive letter, then it basically did not mount the drive.  Hence Ghost 10 never got a chance to see, much less restore my image.  

The next time you start up the XP Windows Pre-Environment cd, it will find a DiskID present, and try to honor that assignment.


Quote:
I think Symantec must be writing to the external HDD, code that *remembers* the drive letter assignment of the USB HDD that is seen while in WinXP--and is trying to have that same drive letter show up in the *Recovery Environment* when you boot the *Recovery Disk*.

After clearing the DiskID field, XP filled it in again but used the next-available drive letter, which was f: in my case.  You're right though that I would have to manually reassign it if I had programs or other data on it that pointed incorrectly.  However, just seeing it was a big improvement because that meant/means that I can use Ghost 10 RE cd.  So I redefined the Ghost backup definitions to the revised drive letter.

I looked at sector 62 and it is all zeros.  Of course I have never used Ghost 2003 which I think explains why it was never marked.

I don't claim that all of these tests and observations are 100% correct, just how I understand them as of now.  Any help NightOwl or guidance from anyone appreciated.

I'm just trying to get Ghost 10 Recovery CD to work (reliably) !

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 6:17pm
So, is sector 62 the Ghost 2003 equivalent of DiskID for Windows XP/Ghost 10?

I remember that Windows 98 had problems remembering drive letters for devices.  I had just assumed that XP corrected that somehow.  Later I found out about 01B8 (DiskID) field.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:22pm
Ghost4me.John


Quote:
So, is sector 62 the Ghost 2003 equivalent of DiskID for Windows XP/Ghost 10?

No, I do not think so.  The disk ID is there regardless of Ghost 2003 and Sector 62 usage.

WinXP uses that disk ID to identify a specific HDD and partition so it can match assigned drive letters to the correct partition, if I understand things correctly.

No one is really sure, that I've seen, but Ghost 2003 *marking* of the HDD in Sector 62 seems related to Ghost 2003's usage of a *virtual partition* when you use Ghost 2003 from its Windows interface.  You set up the Ghost 2003 procedure in Windows, you then re-boot to the *virtual partition* where Ghost does its thing, and then re-boot back to Windows when it's done.

But maybe I'm confusing things, being as I do not have Ghost 10:

Could someone clarify this--if you assign your USB external HDD, say the drive letter Q:\ when in WinXP--and you have some unassigned drive letters before letter Q, when you boot with the Ghost 10 Recover Disk--will your USB HDD still have the drive letter Q:\ in the Recovery Environment?

The reason I ask, the only place that knows you have assigned the USB HDD the letter Q:\, is in the WinXP registry.  When you boot to the Recovery Environment--a generic registry is loaded that's on the boot CD--and the drive letter Q:\ for the USB should not be known by the boot CD!

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:38pm

Quote:
The reason I ask, the only place that knows you have assigned the USB HDD the letter Q:\, is in the WinXP registry.
I think it's embedded in the DiskID signature, but I could be wrong.  I will test with Q and let you know.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:40pm

NightOwl wrote on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:22pm:
Could someone clarify this--if you assign your USB external HDD, say the drive letter Q:\ when in WinXP--and you have some unassigned drive letters before letter Q, when you boot with the Ghost 10 Recover Disk--will your USB HDD still have the drive letter Q:\ in the Recovery Environment?


Yes, it will be Q:\. Drive letters in the Ghost 10 RE are the same as the drive letters seen in Windows, for all hard drive partitions. Optical drives are different. The situation in Ghost 9 and BartPE is different. The drive letters start at C and progress sequentially so they may be quite different from their Windows drive letter.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:52pm

Quote:
Could someone clarify this--if you assign your USB external HDD, say the drive letter Q:\ when in WinXP--and you have some unassigned drive letters before letter Q, when you boot with the Ghost 10 Recover Disk--will your USB HDD still have the drive letter Q:\ in the Recovery Environment?

Brian is right.  I just tested again.  In Windows XP, I changed the USB HDD from k: which I previously had it assigned to, to q: which you requested.  Then I shut down, and booted from the Ghost 10 RE cd.  The USB HDD was recognized and it had the drive letter of Q: .  I had no problem browsing the contents of q: .  And then I shut down and restarted Windows XP.  It was still q: and I then just now used Disk Manager to change it back to k:

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 26th, 2006 at 7:56pm

Quote:
The situation in Ghost 9 and BartPE is different.

Brian, I believe that we discovered that Ghost 9 uses a completely different Windows XP Pre-Environment than the one Symantec adopted for Ghost 10.  The Ghost 9 did NOT pay any attention to DiskID.

That's the reason no one had all these Recovery CD problems until Ghost 10 came out.  Of course G9 cd didn't have all the latest drivers but it worked 100% of the time for me.  

Hopefully Ghost 11 will have all this straightened out.

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 27th, 2006 at 1:17am
Ghost4me.John and Brian

Ghost 10 is somehow registering the drive letter assignments of the USB drives on the HDD's (but apparently not in Sector 62), and apparently is supposed to pick that up when it boots to the Recovery Environment--but that appears to be where the *bug* is--the memory of which drive letter to use can get *muddled* by the plugging in of different mass memory devices such as USB card readers and probably other USB HDD's.

Ghost 9 did not try to *remember* external drive letter assignments--it simply assigned the next available drive letter during each boot when it *discovered* an external USB device that needed a drive letter.

I'm sure Symantec did this in an attempt to make the Recovery Environment *appear* the same as when you boot to WinXP--the external USB HDD has the same drive letter assignment.

But, obviously, Symantec did not do a very good job of making this *feature* very robust, and able to handle the fact that people keep plugging and unplugging various USB devices over time!  Ghost 10 gets confused--and then refuses to even *see* the USB HDD!

When you delete the *disk ID* from the external USB HDD, now Ghost 10 handles the USB HDD as a *new* USB device and assigns the next available drive letter like Ghost 9 does because you have *erased* Ghost 10's memory of the drive letter--it has to re-discover the external HDD and give it a new drive letter.

Symantec is obviously using the Disk ID to associate the external USB HDD's partition with a drive letter based on Ghost4me.John's result that *zeroing out* the Disk ID forces Ghost 10 to *re-assign* rather than *remember* the drive letter assignment--but I wonder where Ghost 10 is storing that drive letter association with the Disk ID? ? ?

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 27th, 2006 at 9:15am
Here's the crux and history of the Windows Pre-Environment problem (s):


XPAddict wrote on Dec 4th, 2005 at 4:59pm:
I have read this entire thread with some interest, and... have the answer to part of the puzzle:

Symantec switched from a proprietary boot environment to a Windows PE based solution.  The "hard-coded" drive letters X: & Z: come from WinPE NOT Ghost 10.  These drive letters; X: for the bootable PE media (whether CD, ISO, etc.) & Z: Ramdrive are part of the enhancements of Windows PE 2005 which became available to OEM's in early 2005.

Inability to recognize certain USB drives when attached to a hub or inserted AFTER boot is also WinPE issues.  Specific storage subsystem driver support may also be related to the underlying WinPE environment, as it can be built off of a Server 2003 SP1 source (with Windows PE 2005) instead of XP SP2 media.

In the corporate environment, it is a regular occurence to update your Windows PE based solutions with latest drivers for NIC's & storage media; something that Symantec is apparently not interested in doing.

I may have to go out & buy a copy of Norton Ghost 10 just to get my hands on the ISO for the recovery environment & investigate inside of UltraISO & see how it is laid out.

Hope this helps!


My own opinion is that Symantec dropped its proprietary pre-environment that it shipped with Ghost 9 in favor of the Microsoft pre-environment that it shipped with Ghost 10.  The whole fallout that occurred with drive letters and DiskID just wasn't anticipated or known to them.  Erasing the DiskID field merely lets the current pre-environment proceed without any conflict.

This whole discussion and problem could have been a two week only discussion if Symantec had a responsive level 2 or level 3 support mechanism.  Or if the next version Microsoft pre-environment would just ignore DiskID.

Just my (2 cents and a soap box) opinions . . .

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 27th, 2006 at 9:48am
Ghost4me.John

Quoting XPAddict:


Quote:
Symantec switched from a proprietary boot environment to a Windows PE based solution.  The "hard-coded" drive letters X: & Z: come from WinPE NOT Ghost 10.  These drive letters; X: for the bootable PE media (whether CD, ISO, etc.) & Z: Ramdrive are part of the enhancements of Windows PE 2005 which became available to OEM's in early 2005.


WinPE apparently has changed over time!  Prior to *early 2005* WinPE did not use those reserved drive letters X: and Z:--so Ghost 9.x was using the *pre-2005* WinPE--now, Ghost 10 is using the *post-early 2005* WinPE.

Brian said in reply # 17 above:


Quote:
The situation in Ghost 9 and BartPE is different. The drive letters start at C and progress sequentially so they may be quite different from their Windows drive letter.

So, here's a whole new set of questions!!!  If Microsoft's WinPE has changed, will it start showing up on WinXP installation CD's, and if you build a BartPE with that installation CD, will you now have those *reserved* drive letters X: and Z: on your BartPE?

I can understand how having reserved drive letters in Ghost 10's WinPE could cause conflicts--that's one issue--but there appears to be a second issue with Ghost 10's attempt to *remember* external HDD drive letters:

Re: Ghost 10 Recovery CD problems


Apparently, you can give Ghost 10 a *nervous breakdown* when it's trying to remember USB HDD drive letter assignments if you switch USB mass storage devices too much!  (And that's where your solution above of zeroing out the Disk ID provides a *fix* to allow access to the USB HDD again!)

So, there's a second issue.

I wonder, the *new* WinPE that has reserved drive letters X: and Z:--does it try to remember external USB HDD drive letter assignments--or is that a Symantec created issue?

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 27th, 2006 at 9:52am
Ghost4me.John and Brian

Here's a new question--what if your USB HDD has more than one partition--does zeroing out the Disk ID in Sector 0 cause all the partitions to be reassigned drive letters?

Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by Ghost4me.John on Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:12pm

NightOwl wrote on Feb 27th, 2006 at 9:48am:
I wonder, the *new* WinPE that has reserved drive letters X: and Z:--does it try to remember external USB HDD drive letter assignments--or is that a Symantec created issue?

I can't find my url reference for this right now, but I wrote down that the 3 reserved drive letters under WinPE are:

z: ms-ramdrive
s: cd-rom
x: nortonghost 10.0

So, don't hard assign any of those letters for USB devices, as I understand it.

Also, FYI on WinPE:
Windows Preinstallation Environment Overview
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/winpreinst/WindowsPE_over.mspx



Title: Re: Erase DiskID on external USB drive
Post by NightOwl on Feb 27th, 2006 at 12:18pm
Ghost4me.John


Quote:
I wonder, the *new* WinPE that has reserved drive letters X: and Z:--does it try to remember external USB HDD drive letter assignments--or is that a Symantec created issue?

The question is actually regarding Microsoft's WinPE--the newer version that has been released to OEM's--does that WinPE remember USB drive letter assignments--as opposed to the Ghost 10 version in use by Symantec on the Ghost 10 Recovery Disk.


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