Greetings,

I am setting up a new computer for general use and audio editing, and am wondering if anyone would mind checking out my proposed partitioning strategy. Since I've never done anything remotely this complicated before, any advice is very welcome...

The machine has two 320 GB HDDs and 4 GB RAM. I want to run two copies of Win XP (one for daily use, one optimized – i.e. decluttered  – for audio editing). I also want to run Win 98, to support a legacy slide scanner I have that only runs under that or Win 95.  After reading up, I thought I’d make it ready for Linux and future OS’s too.

I’ve read through the disk partitioning strategy article and a forum discussion on this site, other sites (e.g. Goodell for multibooting). My brain is about to explode. Here’s what I’ve come up with:

Disk 1 (320 GB) – OS’s, Executables, and some data.

One active primary partition and several alternate primaries (managed by boot manager), some basic partitions for data.

1 - C: NTFS (Primary, Active), 25 GB, Windows XP -- Every-day Win XP installation.
2 - C: FAT32 (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 4GB, DOS - Emergency Ghost work only.
3 - C: NTFS (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 20 GB, Windows XP -- Audio optimized Win XP installation.
4 - C: FAT32 (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 500 MB, Windows 98 -- OS for legacy slide scanner and possibly free audio software (supported in Win 95/98 only)
5 - C: NTFS (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 6 GB, Win 2K -- Backup OS.
6 - C: EXT3 (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 8 GB - Ready for Linux.
7 - C: NTFS (Alternate Primary, Hidden), 10 GB -- Ready for next-gen OS.
8 - D: FAT32 (Extended/Logical), 100 GB – For MP3s.
9 – E: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 50 GB -- Daily Backups of Disk 2 Data to be burned to CD/DVD occasionally
10 – F: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 60 GB -- Ghost Images of Disk 2 partitions to be burned to DVD regularly.
11 – G:  NTFS (Extended/Logical), 10 GB -- Sitting Empty.
12 – H: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 26 GB – Remaining space, sitting empty


Disk 2 (320 GB) – Data

Only extended/logical partitions on this disk, to avoid problems relating to the automatic re-assignment of drive letters.

1 - M: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 2GB - Windows swap/page file (Win98 & Win XP)
2 - N: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 5GB - Recent, Temp & Temporary Internet Files (Win XP)
2 – O: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 30GB – ‘My Documents’, etc. for everyday Windows XP Installation and Audio Optimized Windows XP installation.
3 – P: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 80 GB -- Lossless DAT Audio data (raw captures)
4 – Q: FAT32 (Extended/Logical), 22 GB -- Lossless DAT Audio data (raw, for use with Win 98)
5 – P: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 44 GB – Edited audio.
6 – R: FAT32 (Extended/Logical), 20 GB -- Digital Imaging (JPG scans) data (produced by Win 98)
7 – S: NTFS (Extended/Logical), 40 GB -- Downloads, drivers, etc.
8 – T: FAT32 (Extended/Logical), 60 GB – Ghost images of Disk 1 OS’s to be burned to CD/DVD regularly.
9 – U: EXT3 (Extended/Logical) 1 GB -- Linux swap partition (future use)
10 – W: NTFS (Extended/Logical) 16 GB, Daily backups of Disk 1 data (associated with stubborn/new programs)

I have a couple of questions…

1.  I question the need for a DOS partition, since DOS can only read FAT32 partitions, and that won’t help me much for the others…

2.  With 4 GB RAM, how big should I  make the swap file partition (and file). Sorry for this tedious question, but I’ve read all the recommended articles, and they’ve left me more confused than ever.

3.  If I want to ensure the CD/DVD drive is always a particular letter, say D:, can I do that with all this hidden/inactive partitioning business?

4.  How much space to most people allocate for their Ghost images? Is my proposed 60 GB too much for this setup?

5.  Plan to use fdisk, Partition Magic and Ghost, but haven’t narrowed down the choice for boot manager. Any suggestions?

Thanks very much for any advice you might have to offer this newcomer.

zenzone

zenzone,

I'll answer a few questions to get this started. Recently I setup a test computer with 8 copies of WinXP installed using advice from

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/index.htm

I used BING as a boot manager

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html

With version 1.77 you don't have to do the following page at all.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/ptedit.htm

BING makes the adjustments to the hidden sectors for you. I used ver 1.76 on the first occasion and made the adjustments but later found that ver 1.77 would do this.

In retrospect it was easy. Any WinXP could be booted and the other 7 were hidden. I did the whole project in less than two hours (I already had an image).

I have 2 GB of RAM and I use a page file of 400 MB, maximum 1000 MB, on the C drive. I've never used more than 200 MB of the page file and mostly it's around 15 MB used.

http://aumha.org/win5/a/xpvm.htm

The CD-ROM will retain whichever drive letter it is assigned.

60 GB of space for your images is not too much. More space, more images.

I'd like to ask a question. I haven't used fdisk for a few years but I notice others do. What am I missing out on?

Thanks Brian. Great references and excellent advice.

I'm going to look into BING. At first glance, my only concern would be if you get 'tied in' to it, or if it makes disk imaging or working with partitions complicated.

Did you use it for formatting and setting up the partitions too? Do you know if you can format and partition using other software, and just install BING for as the boot manager?

On another topic, I just received some advice that leads me to believe I ought to create a partition for temporary audio files that the audio editing software might create. Otherwise, you can run up against a full partition -- if your audio data and editing software's temp dirs are on the same partition -- in the middle of editing and lose some work. I mention this here to keep the info in one place. So I'll add another partition or two to my setup, for the temp files created by the audio software. Also, this will avoid fragmenting the 'stable' audio data area.

cheers!

zenzone

zenzone wrote on Sep 21^st, 2006 at 5:12pm:

I'm going to look into BING. At first glance, my only concern would be if you get 'tied in' to it, or if it makes disk imaging or working with partitions complicated. Did you use it for formatting and setting up the partitions too? Do you know if you can format and partition using other software, and just install BING for as the boot manager?

That worried me too. I didn’t warm to the unlimited primary partition idea and I just used it as a boot manager. If you want to get rid of it then it’s just a 5 second uninstall but you then need to find another way to boot your OS that are installed in logical partitions. Dan mentions XOSL but I couldn’t get it working. BING is easy and has lots of good features which you may or may not use. It can create and restore images, partition and format but strangely it can’t format a NTFS partition. It can edit boot.ini and I used this for all 8 WinXP partitions. I didn’t use the partitioning functions. I used Partition Magic as it’s more familiar to me.

If you want to go ahead I’ll outline how I installed BING and setup the hidden partition aspect. You really only need BING if you want to install more than 3 operating systems on your first HD.

Interesting thread. I like this kind of stuff.

Brian wrote on Sep 21^st, 2006 at 5:43pm:

If you want to go ahead I’ll outline how I installed BING and setup the hidden partition aspect.

Yes, thanks. That'd be appreciated. I've got to get moving on this stuff, since my main machine crashed irrecoverably last week  (HD failure), and it's time to build the new one. It was time anyway.

Brian, concerning Reply #1 with your PC containing eight copies of Windows XP, are you able to – for example – create a Ghost 10 recovery point of C: (containing Windows XP installation #1), restore it to D: (overwriting Windows XP installation #2), and then boot the PC using D: so as to effectively roll-back the PC to a prior state in time?

Does the issue of Windows XP ‘remembering’ drive letters still cause difficulties in this scenario – or, does BootIt NG allow you to circumvent this problem?

Pleonasm wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2006 at 11:05am:

Does the issue of Windows XP ‘remembering’ drive letters still cause difficulties in this scenario – or, does BootIt NG allow you to circumvent this problem?

I followed Dan's instructions and there were no drive letter problems. Each WinXP booted as C: drive and the other 7 OS were hidden. BING does this.

I had a single WinXP image and I restored it to the 8 partitions that were to be the 8 OS. So all OS were identical. To answer your first question, I didn't try it but I'm sure the answer is "yes". I deleted all partitions a few hours after I was convinced everything was in order.

Does anyone else think that zenzone is planning to use too many logical partitions?

Not me .. but partitioning is a personal thing.

Two 320-gig drives leaves lots of room for various partitions.

Long as he can keep track (tract?) of them, I see no problem.

I would like to know how he likes his arangement 6 months into his endeavor.

I've never regretted having too *many* partitions, but *have* regretted having too few.

Rad wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2006 at 7:43pm:

Not me .. but partitioning is a personal thing.

OK. I'll keep quiet.

Using BING as a boot manager.

I tried this six months ago, became totally confused and gave up. This time it just fell into place so I made some notes as I knew next time wouldn’t be so easy. There are some confusing aspects in the userguide. For example, the Boot Menu on page 15 is not the Boot Menu that is used to choose the next OS. Also the Direct Boot Menu isn’t worth using as it doesn’t hide any of the OS.

Let’s continue from when you are up to Installing the Boot Manager in Dan’s site. All partitions are in place on both HDs and you haven’t booted into Windows at all. Boot to the Partition Magic CD or floppies and make sure that the first OS is Active and all other OS partitions are Hidden on each HD. On the second HD you will have multiple Logical Volumes. In front of the Extended Partition there is 7.8 MB of Unallocated Space. Right Click in the space and turn this into a Primary FAT partition with a status of None. Label it BING. Exit from PM.

Boot to the BING disc.
Click OK to install
Click NO because you don’t want more than 4 primary partitions
Click NO to allow manual setup
OK
Click Create EMBR for HD 0
YES to continue
Select HD 1 (dot)
Click Create EMBR for HD 1
YES to continue
Stay on HD 1 and highlight the BING partition
Click Setup
OK
OK
Close the News window
Remove the BING disc, OK to restart

On the Boot Menu, click Maintenance
Click Partition Work
Select HD 0 (dot)
Highlight MBR Entry 0
Click Properties
Give it a name
Click Edit File if it’s a WinXP / Win2000 OS
Select boot.ini and click OK
Edit if needed and click OK, OK
Highlight MBR Entry 1 and do the same as above
Highlight MBR Entry 2 and do the same as above
MBR Entry 3 is the Extended Partition and there will be many “unnamed” entries below. These are the Logical Volumes
Highlight the first “unnamed” entry and do the same as above
Highlight the second “unnamed” entry etc
etc
Click Close (the Work with partitions window)

Click Boot Edit
Select your first OS and click Edit
In the Identify field, give it the same name you chose recently
In the MBR Details pane, select and click Hide for the other two OS in primary partitions. Select and click Hide for the BING partition. Select MBR Entry 3 and click Volumes. Select Hide for each OS partition but not for the data partitions. OK
OK
Do the same for the next two OS
Select your fourth OS and click Edit
In the Identify field, give it the same name you chose recently
In the MBR Details pane, select and click Hide for all three OS in primary partitions. Select and click Hide for the BING partition. Select MBR Entry 3 and click Volumes. Select Hide for each OS partition except your present one. Don’t hide the data partitions. OK
OK
Do the same for the remaining OS
When you are finished click OK on the Boot Menu- Default.MNU
Click Reboot
Now you will see the real Boot Menu

Any comments?

Quote:

OK. I'll keep quiet.

Your comments are still valuable.

There is safety in a multitude of counsellors.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2011:14;&version=9;

Brian


Quote:

Does anyone else think that zenzone is planning to use too many logical partitions?

I'll step up to the plate--my opinion--way too many partitions.  Could interfere with future addition of USB card readers or digital camera, etc., and booting from Windows PE boot CD's that may require reserved drive letters!

I'm actually running *too many* partitions on my system--the next time I start over--it will be fewer--unless the partition serves a function (i.e. swap file partition on a second HDD to keep the swap file off the OS HDD to reduce fragmentation--and increase responsiveness if you need heavy swap file access like *fast user switching* if you have that enabled), I am finding more and more, it's easier to have a sub-directory to organize things.

Brian wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2006 at 5:45pm:

Does anyone else think that zenzone is planning to use too many logical partitions?

I'm of two minds about it myself. I've always run with one OS, one partition on the OS disk, and one partition only on the 'data' disk (docs, downloads, etc). But the data disk on my last machine was 80 GB, and defragging took so long it was a bore. Also, I like to 'wipe' the disk once in a while  for security purposes. That was impossibly slow on an 80 GB drive that was a single partition. Definitely would like to avoid that this time, if possible.

It could be I'm going overboard with this plan (it's got that feel to it), but I can see the advantages of separate partitions for fast-changing (swap), medium-changing (audio that's being captured then edited) and relatively unchanging data (docs, finished pieces), in addition to the basic requirements of different partititions for each OS, and for the swap file on a different disk.

1. Mainly, is the fast- medium- and slow-data partitioning idea whacko? I mean, I'm not running a corporation here, just a home PC. But it interests me to do it somewhere in the realm of correctness.

2. It would be easy enough to drop the DOS and Win 2K partitions,  for example. With two Win XPs, I probably don't need the backup OS (Win 2K), and I already mentioned the DOS issue. (To recap: DOS was proposed for emergency work, but NTFS partitions wouldn't be available to it anyway. And as mentioned elsewhere on this site, with emergency CDs and disk images of the other OS's, probably DOS partition is unnecessary.)

3. Getting rid of the legacy slide scanner would further reduce the number of partitions on both disks (drop the Win 98 partition on the OS disk, and one FAT32 partition on the data disk). I could just put that on another machine and network it. Probably easier in the long run, 'cause it's fiddly. Note that no slide scanner means I'd drop the idea of using free audio editing software (supported in Win 98 only). That gets rid of all the FAT32 partitions. Not as much fun, but simplifies life and the partitioning plan.

I am open-minded to all suggestions, and I'm not opposed to simplifying. Thanks for the great comments so far; and to Brian for the detailed procedure.

-- zen

As I said, partitioning is a personal thing. I've had drive letters up to T and never had a problem.

There are some things you *need* (want) to have a separate partition for .. such as each O/S .. if you want to run Windows Vista and/or Linux in the future, etc.

But as NightOwl says, it can be over-done (and he's usually right).

There are speed differences related to each part of the disk. This can be easily seen with benchmarking prgms:

http://radified.com/Benches/hdtach_75gxp_w2ksp2.htm

But the differences are admittedly minor  .. especially when compared to the differences you would experience by purchasing a faster disk, such as a 10K-rpm Raptor or 15K-rpm SCSI beast (both seek/access times & STRs).

http://radified.com/Benches/hdtach_x15_36lp_wme.htm

.. which is what I've always recommended for those looking to optimize the speed of their storage system:

namely, a small fast disk to run the O/S, apps & swap .. and a big slower disk for tons of cheap mass storage. I call this a 'hybrid' approach.

http://scsi.radified.com/

You have other considerations with you audio system that most folks don't have .. which is why this thread is interesting .. such as the need for *quiet* I'd guess .. which is why the faster (louder) 10K & 15K drives might not appeal to you.

You also have to be cafeful that people don't project their own needs onto your particular system. Everybody's needs are different, which is why we see so many different partitioning schemes. Something that works well for someone else might niot work so well for you.

And your needs appear to be *very* different from most others I've seen.

Rad wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2006 at 1:50pm:

You have other considerations with you audio system that most folks don't have .. which is why this thread is interesting .. such as the need for *quiet* I'd guess .. which is why the faster (louder) 10K & 15K drives might not appeal to you. ... And your needs appear to be *very* different from most others I've seen.

Thanks, Rad, for the insights and links and for keeping my mind focussed. Yes, the need for quiet was a big influence in choosing the components for the system.

I went with smaller disks than I might have -- 250 GB Samsung SpinPoint P series (sorry, misreported the size in first posting, will have to rejig my partition sizes). These are Sata II (3.0 GB/s) drives with a reputation for running quietly, cooly and with impressive data transfer times. (Not as impressive as the SCSI drive you pointed to, though.)

For read transfer comparisons, see:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/21/samsung_adds_capacity_to_fast_and_quiet_t133_series/page8.html

250 GB seemed to be the cut-off point for power consumption, too. The P series uses 7.5 Watts at idle and 9.5 Watts during a seek, larger disks use around 12 Watts just at idle. I wanted to keep the surface temp of the disks low, to cut back on resulting fan noise.  According to Tom's Hardware, the P120 disks achieve a surface temp of 45 deg, which is amongst the lowest.

For surface temp comparisons, see:
http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/21/samsung_adds_capacity_to_fast_and_quiet_t133_series/page14.html)

But I'll have to tackle the fan noise issue with a fan controller of some kind anyway, since at the moment the drive fan is the noisiest one in the system and is always on, not having read the test results, I guess. :-)

Other quietness considerations led to a 380 W Antec power supply. Again, lower-rated than others might choose, but the desire was to keep generated heat to a minimum, thence reducing cooling needs and fan noise.  The lower rating puts the power supply into its 'efficiency sweetspot' on my system (hopefully), so less wasted capacity and heat. The power supply fan hardly runs at all (during initial power up tests, anyway), and is virtually noise-free. Big change from my old system.

Finally, relying on onboard video only in this machine, by virtue of the same power consumption/heat/fan reasoning. My understanding is that reducing overall temp inside the case will mean the case and other fans can run at reduced speed. As you suggest, important during in-house recording.

Brian, following up on Reply #7 concerning the capability of having multiple Window XP "C:" partitions on the same PC...

Are you saying that BootIt NG automatically fixes the drive letter problem so that when you boot from one of several instances of a Windows XP operating system partition it is recognized and interpreted as "C:", regardless of the order/number of the partition itself?

I was confused by your comment that "I followed Dan's instructions…" combined with "BING does this", so I'm not sure whether the process is manual (performing an action recommended by Dan Goodell at Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters) or automated within BootIt NG.

Thanks for the clarification.

Pleonasm, since none of the WinXP partitions had "seen" any of the other WinXP partitions, they were all happy to continue using their original drive letter, C:  It's an innate function of WinXP to be a C: drive unless the other conditions that Dan describes get in the way.

If you just had 2 or 3 WinXPs and you were using Boot Magic as the boot manager then the same applies. The active WinXP is C: drive. Where BING is smarter is that it allows OS in logical volumes to boot. And BING can be configured to hide all other OS and data logical volumes if you desire. Boot Magic can't boot OS in logical volumes.


Quote:

I followed Dan's instructions and there were no drive letter problems.

I should have said, "I followed Dan's instructions and there were no problems." The drive letter comment was not necessary.

Clear as mud?

Brian, I think some of the confusion is dissipating.  To reiterate, the procedure you followed was (?):

1. Create a recovery point of the Windows XP operating system C: partition using Ghost 10.
2. Restore the recovery point created in Step 1 onto a different (primary? hidden?) partition.
3. Use BootIt NG to set the partition used in Step 2 as "active", and also to "hide" the partition referenced in Step 1
4. Use BootIt NG to boot the PC from the partition used in Step 2

Can you kindly edit the above list of steps to improve their accuracy and completeness?

Thank you.

Pleonasm wrote on Sep 24^th, 2006 at 5:56pm:

Brian, I think some of the confusion is dissipating.  To reiterate, the procedure you followed was (?): 1. Create a recovery point of the Windows XP operating system C: partition using Ghost 10. 2. Restore the recovery point created in Step 1 onto a different (primary? hidden?) partition. 3. Use BootIt NG to set the partition used in Step 2 as "active", and also to "hide" the partition referenced in Step 1 4. Use BootIt NG to boot the PC from the partition used in Step 2

Sure. I already had a backup image which I'd made a few months ago. This was stored on the second HD. Using PM, I partitioned the empty first HD into 3 primary partitions and an Extended partition containing 6 logical drives. Using the Ghost 9 RE, I restored the backup image to the 3 primary and 5 logical partitions and left the last logical partition as a potential data partition. Again using PM, I made sure the first OS partition was marked Active and the other 7 OS partitions were marked Hidden. I then continued as in reply #11.

Now, when you start the computer you see a list of 8 OS in a BING window. You make your choice, click OK and that OS boots. The other 7 OS are hidden. The common data partition is visible to all 8 OS.

Keep asking questions if it's not clear.


Quote:

On the second HD you will have multiple Logical Volumes.

I was referring to zenzone's second HD.

Pleonasm wrote on Sep 24^th, 2006 at 9:49am:

I was confused by your comment that "I followed Dan's instructions…" combined with "BING does this", so I'm not sure whether the process is manual (performing an action recommended by Dan Goodell at Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters) or automated within BootIt NG.

Pleo, by "Dan's instructions" I meant his full website.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/index.htm

Quite a lot if information.

Brian, I think I’m following the process.

It appears to me, though, that in this scenario BootIt NG is only required if the user has an operating system stored on an extended/logical partition; otherwise, couldn’t the user achieve the same result by using Partition Magic to mark one of the primary partitions containing the operating system as active and the remainder as hidden (plus – if required – editing the Boot.INI file)?

In other words, for a user to have multiple Windows XP “C:” operating system partitions on a single hard disk drive where the partitions are all primary, is BootIt NG really necessary?

Quote:

where the partitions are all primary, is BootIt NG really necessary?

Brian wrote on Sep 21^st, 2006 at 5:43pm:

You really only need BING if you want to install more than 3 operating systems on your first HD.

Pleo, that's correct. There are lots of ways that you can boot 3 or less OS installed in primary partitions. It's the ones installed in logical partitions that need assistance from BING.

Thanks, Brian.

This is a nice technique for keeping the existing operating system partition intact while being able to boot back into a prior state of the PC, thereby allowing (1) sequential comparisons of a prior state to the current state for debugging purposes, or (2) for the evaluation of new software tools without risking the integrity of the day-to-day operating system partition.

I recommend that Zenzone add a primary partition to his plan that is as large as the largest of his operating system partitions, in order to allow him to partake of this approach.

This line of thinking should be represented in all partitioning strategy guides, in my opinion.