I need some direction and advice before I run out and purchase another Cloning/Copying program for hard disk data transfer/replacement.

I have a Fujitsu Lifebook (laptop) with WinXP Home SP2 and all updates.  It has a 40gb Toshiba hard disk (factory) that came w/XP etc, on the C: and a DISE Backup image (7.79gb) on the D: partition of the same drive ( both Fat32's).  I have run out of hd space and 2 weeks ago purchased a Fujitsu 80gb (2.5) with hopes of upgrading (replacing the existing laptop drive).  Even though the drive is a Fujitsu, Fujitsu won't tell me a word as to whether their hd will even work in my laptop (both hd's are ata).  To make matters worst I purchased Norton Ghost 9.0 about a year ago and as of last week have been trying to use it (first time) to make this disk copy but to no avail.  Norton won't talk to me, even via email, as they state they do not support 9.0 anymore.  

This is what I have done.  I am using an external HD enclosure (ADS) with firewire and a cable adaptor (3.5 to 2.5 which I have used successfully in the past for other recovery operations) which temporarily houses my new laptop 80gb drive.  

I have tried several times to make the disk copy.  Each time over 15hrs and it just keeps going so I give up and search the net for more answers.  I am frustrated and about ready to try a competitor of Sym.   I would appreciate any help out there as I have read alot of posts (even Goodell's site) but have not found my answers yet.

How long should I wait for this cloning action?  Currently its going on over 16hrs.  Using NG 9, I first copied successfully the D: drive to the new hd.  All bytes etc are the same and it shows up as my N: Dise backup Logical drive.  I believe it is fine and will be fine.

Then I used XP disk management utility to format the rest of the 80gb (about 68gb) to NTFS as I was told that my old Fat32 C: info will have to be put in the enlarged partition space as NTFS due to Fat32 limitiation under XP.  When I was asked to name the drive letter I gave it M:.  I know from reading the threads that I may have issues with it booting correctly as the new OS, due to XP drive letter concerns but I see the work around posts to resolve this once I get the cloning done.

Can anyone please tell me what I need to do with NG 9 and my computer settings so I can accomplish my hd upgrade?  If so a brief outline of the steps to correctly accomplish my task would be wonderful?  Is it true I should not let XP see the new drive (which currently is in a firewire external case?  If so how can this be done using an installed version of NG?  Could my laptop presently be in a never ending loop due to paging settings or low virtual memory settings (only 800 free mb left on the old drive)?  NG 9 that I am using is installed on my old hard drive?  Should I be running it off of a cd?

I have not found any great laptop cloning forums to date and you folks, as I have been reading, seem smarter and more knowledgable than most the others out there(I registered on 3 geek type sites last week and they know less than I..............O brother).  I got one response out of 3 whole sites!!

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Signed,
Still pulling my hair out (the very little that is left!!)

Mackjazz,

I just saw your post in the Acronis Forum. Have a look at this while I study your problem.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1117581957;start=

Mackjazz wrote on Oct 30^th, 2006 at 8:38pm:

"... I purchased Norton Ghost 9.0 about a year ago..."

If you purchased a retail boxed copy of Norton Ghost 9.0, you should have received an additional copy of Norton Ghost 2003 which is the legacy version included for users of WIN 98SE and WIN Me.  Both cloning "disk-to-disk" and imaging "disk-to-image" with Ver 2003 have been straightforward, immediate and flawless in my experience using two different FireWire external HDDs.  Perhaps you should give some consideration to the approach of capturing the whole disk at once with Ver 2003?

EP :'(

Mackjazz,

I assume the C: drive on your 40 GB HD is around 30 GB. You will probably need at least 4 - 5 GB of free space for any imaging program to work efficiently so you need to move some data from the C: drive to a data partition on your 80 GB HD.

You should allow around 40 GB of Unallocated Space at the start of the 80 GB HD to accommodate your "clone". Using Disk Management you will have to delete the partitions on the 80 GB HD and create a 40 GB primary partition and then a "40" GB (remainder) extended partition containing a logical drive. Then delete the 40 GB primary partition to get the Unallocated Space. Using Windows Explorer, copy as much data from your C: drive to the external HD data partition that you are able. eg Office files, pictures, sound and video files. Forget the backup partition containing the image.

Let us know when you are up to this stage.

thx for the feedback.  Here is an update and I am not home yet.  The NG 9 just finished finally after 18hrs and 5 min.  It said it was successful.  I did a properties on both my original C: and the clone M:.  bytes are exactly the same.  BUT, I was sad to discover that in Computer Management the NTFS drive I have created (M:with 68gb) was turned back into a 29.7gb Fat32 which I suppose means I lost the extra space on the new bigger drive.  I think this might be because it is an exact clone of the orginal C: drive?  Also I may have mistakenly interpreted the option of “resize drive to fill unallocated space” backwards because I did check that box thinking that I wanted and would get the full extra space rather than be restricted to the orginal C: drive Fat32 space.  I figured I had to make it NTFS since the space would be bigger than the 30 gb Fat32 restriction limit.  Did I error in my thinking?  I am currently doing a chkdsk on the new drive as it is still in the enclosure.  Now I am wondering if I should next swap drives and see if it will work in my laptop as the boot up disk or if I should next try to figure out how to get the difference of the approx. leftover space 80 - 29.4 - 7.9 = 42.7 on the new drive that now appears to have vanished and therefore would be useless.  I hate to reclone at this point because I believe I have a cloned C: and D: successfully but I also want the left over space on the new bigger drive.  Hmmmmmmmmmm..............

Any ideas folks (Brian, etc, etc)?

Thanks again to all who have helped in my frustration.

Mackjazz,

You should try to see if the new HD boots. I doubt it will as you cloned into a partition. See this page. It applies to Ghost 9 too.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1148252120;start=

If the original is FAT32, the clone will be FAT32. I don't think you will have trouble creating large partitions with FAT32 from Windows Disk Management.

I really feel it won't boot and you will have to re-clone. Let me know what partition sizes you desire and I'll help you figure it out. As you have USB 1 the fastest time to clone 30 GB would be 10 hours and as your C: drive doesn't have much free space then 18 hours isn't surprising. Sorry.

Thx Brian,

I am going to do the swap now.  The chkdsk said the files and folders were fine.  It is now verifing the free space.  

Just a clarification on using windows disk management.  I was sure I read somewhere that FAt32 were limited up to 30gb with XP where as with win98 it could be up to 2 terabytes.  The file system type as been one of my main unknowns as to how I should properly configure and use the full 80gb drive that will be replacing my 40gb drive.  I did format the 68gb as an NTFS but when the copy disk was finished it changed it back to FAT32 (which I understand because it is an exact copy) and said that there was no more space left.  In Disk Management it shows it as:  Partition M:, Fat32, Healthy, Active and capacity 66.71gb.  However when I do a Windows Explorer properties of M: it show 29.7gb with 800mb free left.  Now the extra space is unseen.  You mentioned the larger space should not be a problem but if the properties for the new copy say there is only 800mb of space left how do I go about finding the extra 42gb that have now disappeared?  By the way I just realized I have Partition Magic 8.0.  Perhaps that could be useful in my present delima??  What is recommended now in order to get the missing space (approx 42.7gb) identified, initiated, partitioned and formated?

You also mentioned to not worry about the DISE Backup image that is presently my drive D: partition on my old 40gb?  This image is everything that came with my laptop from Fujitsu.  My retail package did NOT come with any Disks not even WinXP.  This image is my only backup of my OEM software.  Wouldn't this be necessary to have on my new hd just as it was on the smaller older one?  You mentioned to forget about it but if I have a failure on this new disk it should be much easier to recover from the D: image than get back into my old 40gb hd to do a recovery or restore don't you think?

Did I miss something there in the translation??

Both my new partitions do show up in Disk Management and in Windows Explorer.  I have
Local disk C:
DISE_BACKUP D:
Local disk M:
DISE_BACKUP N:

thx again for the kindly support in my hd upgrade quest.
Mack

Mack, what files types are in that D: drive partition? What brand laptop do you have?  
What I planned was to clone your OS partition to the 80 GB HD, leave the D: drive on the 40 GB HD and later to create an image of the new HD C: drive, writing the image to the 40 GB HD. Then you will have a current backup image with all drivers, progs etc. in addition to an image which is a few years old. Both on the old HD. Restoring your internal HD from this image in the event of a disaster would be easy.

Partition Magic makes partitioning much easier than Disk Management. I’m sure you can create large FAT32 partitions with PM. I think the limitation is with fdisk.


Quote:

how do I go about finding the extra 42gb that have now disappeared?

It should show in Disk Management and PM as Unallocated Space. We can fix it too.

PS If you have a HD failure then it's not much help to have your OS and backup on the HD that has failed.

In the D: is what Fujitsu (I have a Lifebook, 512ram, 40gb hd and Home XP), calls DISE_BACKUP.  The partition D: is 7.79gb in size with 1.29gb of data.  This data is an image of my OEM software including WinXP that came preinstalled with my new notebook.  Fujitsu explained to me the image in D: was in lieu of me getting program, OS and recovery cd's.  The D: file sys is FAT32.

Well thats not a bad idea as long as the new hd copy is up and working perfectly. Would that mean if I did have to restore the image from the old drive that we would create now, I would just put the old drive in one of my external enclosures and then restore to the 80gb which would be in the laptop?  Can that be done from and external point?

I was just getting ready to make the swap and use Dan's method #3 and see if I can be succesful with this project.  I had been waiting for the dskchk to finish and it did just a bit ago. If I am successful then further pointers would be great for using the additional space.  If not then I think your method of copying and moving would be the smartest and I like the idea of the most current image in the old drive and I guess then the 80gb would end up being just one drive?  Or would it still be best to have 2 partitions, one with the OS and programs and the other with all my many years of data, photos, etc ,etc???

Thanks so much for your efforts in helping me.  I have been reading alot of posts and tests that you have done on this site.  Brian, you are a great resource to many!

Dan's Method #3 is certainly worth trying if it doesn't boot. Good thought.

To restore an image with Ghost 9 you boot to the CD, choose your image on the external HD and restore it to the internal HD. Easy.

You should have two partitions on the new HD. OS and data.

That 1.29 GB file in the D: drive, what is its file extension?

I think that file is .pqi. This can be restored by using a Ghost 9 CD.

Well I did the swap and nothing after the bios and memory chk.  It did show the new 80gb hd as Disk 0 then it simply went to a black screen with a line cursor near the upper lefthand side of the screen.

So then I put in the win 98 startup disk.  got the a: prompt. and did a fdisk /mbr (with a space betwn the k and /).  rebooted but nothing.  the I used the win 98 again and went to the c: prompt and repeated and then to the D and repeated and then rebooted but still nothing.  Then because it takes a bit to exchange the laptop dirves I left it and went to bed 2:00am.

Today got into it using Partition Magic 8 and found 4 partitions but could only work on the new large one and the D:  I found a cluster size error.

Then came my big problem for the day so far.  I have not internet service (cable is down all over So Cal).  No tv either.  So now I am on my desktop and ijust nstalled some dial up sotfware.  Its slow but at least I can communicate!!

Well at this point I think I should just reclone.
Thoughts and Questions:
I am fine with the setup you suggested Brian.  In making 2 partitions on the new 80gb, one for OS and programs and the other for data.  And on the old the DISE IMage and the new image of the new 80gb working properly of course.

So what about the Fat32 issue limitation in cloning to the larger 80gb hd?  I just with MS and it did say XP is limited to 32gb for FAT32.  I guess I could make the Primary partitiion the present 29.7 that is is and then with the local drive (2nd partition) make that NTFS and move alot of my data over to it.

Do I first need to wipe everything out of my new 80gb and get back to 0?  If so what is the best way to do so?  What about formating and making the partitions?  Do I need to use Dan's # 2 before I clone in order to have the new drive recognized when it  replaces the smaller drive in my laptop?

Please let me know the steps I need to take.  Sorry for the challenges with internet and apparently needing to reclone.
Mack

Here is my reference of the FAT32 volume limitation size in WinXP

MS FAT32
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463

Actually as I think about it I would not mind if the OS was a 30gb Fat32 with programs and then the rest of the new 80gb disk was partitioined as a NTFS data drive.  I guess this would mean that I would make 2 images of my new working large drive and place both the FAT32 and NTFS partition images in the old 40gb drive for backup.  Could it be done this way?  Also would it be okay to make the new D: NTFS partition one with disk compression?

thx for all the tips and advice.
Mack

Here are excerpts from the MS on FAT32 limitations.
--
Limitations of the FAT32 File System in Windows XP
View products that this article applies to.
Article ID:314463
Last Review:September 4, 2002
Revision:1.0
This article was previously published under Q314463
For a Microsoft Windows 2000 version of this article, see 184006 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/184006/EN-US/).
SUMMARY
This article discusses the limitations of the FAT32 file system in Windows XP.
MORE INFORMATION
Note the following limitations when you use the FAT32 file system with Windows XP:
•Clusters cannot be 64 kilobytes (KB) or larger. If clusters are 64 KB or larger, some programs (such as Setup programs) may incorrectly calculate disk space.
•A FAT32 volume must contain a minimum of 65,527 clusters. You cannot increase the cluster size on a volume that uses the FAT32 file system so that it contains fewer than 65,527 clusters.
•The maximum disk size is approximately 8 terabytes when you take into account the following variables: The maximum possible number of clusters on a FAT32 volume is 268,435,445, and there is a maximum of 32 KB per cluster, along with the space required for the file allocation table (FAT).
•You cannot decrease the cluster size on a FAT32 volume so that the size of the FAT is larger than 16 megabytes (MB) minus 64 KB.
•You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process. Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup. If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.

For additional information about how to use a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk to format a hard disk, click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
255867 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/255867/EN-US/) How to Use Fdisk and Format to Partition/Repartition a Hard Disk
NOTE: When you attempt to format a FAT32 partition that is larger than 32 GB during the Windows XP installation process, the format operation fails near the end of the process, and you may receive the following error message:
Logical Disk Manager: Volume size too big.
•MS-DOS, the original version of Microsoft Windows 95, and Microsoft Windows NT 4.0-and-earlier do not recognize FAT32 partitions, and are unable to start from a FAT32 volume.
•You cannot create a file larger than (2^32)-1 bytes (this is one byte less than 4 GB) on a FAT32 partition.
For additional information about the FAT32 file system, click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
310525 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310525/EN-US/) Description of the FAT32 File System in Windows XP
--
M

Quote:

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 GB in size using the FAT32 file system in Windows 2000. The Windows 2000 FastFAT driver can mount and support volumes larger than 32 GB that use the FAT32 file system (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create one using the Format tool. This behavior is by design. If you need to create a volume larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system instead.

Quote:

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process. Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup. If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.

I don’t use FAT32 but the above suggests the 32 GB limitation applies to WinXP installation. As you are restoring an image and resizing the partition, it should be OK.

The flashing cursor is a worry. I’ve only seen that with “cloning” after I’d deliberately deleted the MBR. But you should have had a MBR. Even when you clone into a partition, Windows appears to start. You see the WinXP logo and the horizontal scroll bar but it freezes on the next screen. You mentioned that the HD was seen in the BIOS.

OK. Let's do it again. Use PM from floppies or bootable CD to create a 50 GB (or your choice) FAT32 primary partition. Make the remainder a logical drive, NTFS. Now delete the 50 GB partition so you will have Unallocated Space.

Move (not copy) your data files across to the logical drive using Windows Explorer. Don't move the .pqi file. This will make the C: drive "used space" smaller and cloning should be faster.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1117581957;start=

Follow these instructions and make sure you tick “resize drive to fill unallocated space”.

Make sure you have the latest BIOS before starting as that flashing cursor concerns me.

Any questions?

When I created the clone, NG 9 asked about adding the MBR and making the new disk bootable and I did confirm both options.  Not sure why I could not get the MBR working but I wonder if it had to do with those 2 other partitions that one was made up of 7.6mb (could that have been the first sector ) or mbr)?  The other unknown partition was exactly the same size as my D: Dise_backup partition.  Anywho I just put back in my old disk and it came up fine.  By the way yes the DISE ext. is a pqi image file.

Fujitsu doesn't have any bios info.  My computer says mine is a PhoneixBios and the dates are 1998-2002.  How do I know if I have the latest bios, etc?

Do I need to reformat and wipe everything out for a clean slate before I use Partition Magic to create the data clone partition or the data partition?  do I assign drive letters?  Can I clone a Fat32 disk or volume to a NTFS?  I would be just as happy to have both final partitions NTFS.

You said to tick the unallocated space but the link you shared indicates as written by you to NOT tick this option?

Down the road will I be able to reallocate space amongst these two partitions?  I would like the C: to be much smaller with only programs and the OS and the rest to be available for data storage.

Thx for your ideas and suggestions.  I am learning so much.
Mack

Mackjazz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 12:44pm:

"... So what about the Fat32 issue limitation in cloning to the larger 80gb hd?  I just with MS and it did say XP is limited to 32gb for FAT32..."

Theoretically, Windows XP FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB have to emanate from other operating systems, but be advised that Seagate DiscWizard is a "loophole" utility running inside XP that can do the "over-32GB" trick with some -but not all - HDDs larger than the illusory 137GB threshold.  Whereas DiscWizard assigns file system format by the volume of the partition selected, be advised that were any secondary partition to be selected - and any subsequent - are going to be in an extended partition as a set of logical drives no matter what you do or don't do.  So, forego fighting any of this early on:

(1)  After using Norton GDisk to perform a so-called "low-level format" (actually a "zero-fill" routine), use DiscWizard to assign the target HDD as 'Additional Storage' and when underway proceed to slide the scale LEFT-to-RIGHT until the leading partition changes from GREEN-to-PURPLE (FAT32-to-NTFS) at about 36GB;

(2)  then, gradually revert by sliding the scale RIGHT-to-LEFT where a PURPLE-to-GREEN transformation occurs with the default FAT32 file cluster size dropping from 32kb-to-16kb at which instant you mark SET;

(2)  then, select the NEXT> radio button (you will find the remainder of this phase to be straightforwardly automated);

(4)  then, upon exiting from DiscWizard, reboot your PC into SAFE MODE and reenter DiscWizard to select the Maintenance radio button to go to 'Maintenance Options', select 'Partitioning and Formatting Options' where you in turn select 'Grow a Partition' (this feature actually pumps up the physical drive to force the primary partition to occupy the remaining freespace albeit while retaining the 16kb cluster size - you will find the remainder of this phase to be likewise straightforwardly automated as DiscWizard will reboot without intervention on your part); and

(5)  after the system reboots, you merely hit the Finish radio button, then in turn the Exit radio button - et voila^' - you now have a FAT32 HDD to the full extent of the physical HDD capacity which functions in just about any operating system extant.

EP :'(

"It did show the new 80gb hd as Disk 0 then it simply went to a black screen with a line cursor near the upper lefthand side of the screen."

All that discussion about Method #2, Method #3, and "fdisk /mbr" is premature here.  Those apply if XP boots up with the wrong drive letters, but the above symptom means you're not even getting past the boot sector.  You're not even getting far enough to get the "ntldr missing" msg.  Either the partition table is corrupt, the partition is not set active, or the partition boot sector is corrupt.  You'll need to reclone.

FWIW, DISE is PowerQuest's "Drive Image Special Edition".  Back before the Symantec buyout, PowerQuest was cutting deals with some manufacturers to put oem restore images in a recovery partition on the hard disk.  (This could have been booted by special code in the bios or by special code in a custom MBR, depending on how the manufacturer chose to do it.)  IIRC, DISE was a crippled variation of Drive Image 2002, a DOS-based imager that competed head-to-head with Ghost 2003.  The image file should have a .pqi extension.  Brian says Ghost 9 might be able to read a pqi file, but if so I didn't know that.  My recollection was that Ghost 9 would read a Drive Image 7 image, but not DI2002.  At the time of the Symantec buyout, PowerQuest had been shipping DI7 with DI2002 tossed into the box for "legacy" systems.  Symantec rebranded DI7 as "Ghost 9", dropped DI2002 from the box and substituted their own Ghost 2003 as the legacy option.  So as EP mentioned, you probably have both v9 and v2003.

Earlier, EP mentioned Ghost 2003 should work with firewire.  If so, you could go that route.  You could use PM8 to repartition the new HDD, 30GB for system and rest for data.  (If you're trying to save the DISE partition, add a small FAT32 at the end of the HDD for that.)  It would help if you follow Brian's advice to begin moving some of your data over to the new HDD before imaging the system partition.  Then boot from CD and use Ghost 2003 to image old system partition via firewire to a file on the new HDD's data partition.  Shut down, remove old HDD, swap new HDD into laptop.  Image is now on internal HDD, so boot from CD and restore system partition from image (on data partition) to first partition of the same HDD.  Ghost 2003 has proven to be very reliable at setting up the boot configuration when you're restoring from image to internal HDD partition.

As for the FAT32 system partition, you can't change the file system while imaging/cloning.  However, XP can subsequently convert FAT32 to NTFS if you want.  (That's not a bad idea, since a 30GB FAT32 partition would be rather inefficient.)

Mackjazz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 2:49pm:

When I created the clone, NG 9 asked about adding the MBR and making the new disk bootable and I did confirm both options.

I'm sure you had a MBR.


Quote:

How do I know if I have the latest bios, etc?

Anything on the Fujitsu web site?


Quote:

Do I need to reformat and wipe everything out for a clean slate before I use Partition Magic to create the data clone partition or the data partition?  do I assign drive letters?

Delete the partitions using PM immediately before you create new partitions.


Quote:

Can I clone a Fat32 disk or volume to a NTFS?  I would be just as happy to have both final partitions NTFS.

No, you must clone to Unallocated Space. You WinXP will remain Fat32. You can convert it to NTFS later if you desire.


Quote:

You said to tick the unallocated space but the link you shared indicates as written by you to NOT tick this option?

That's just because I was testing.


Quote:

Down the road will I be able to reallocate space amongst these two partitions?

Yes.


Quote:

I would like the C: to be much smaller with only programs and the OS and the rest to be available for data storage.

If that's the case then make the primary partition on the new HD 32 GB and the remainder a logical drive, NTFS. Then delete the primary partition. You really don't have to create this primary partition at all. I've just described one way to obtain Unallocated Space.


Quote:

I am learning so much.

Same here.

Dan Goodell wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:02pm:

The image file should have a .pqi extension.  Brian says Ghost 9 might be able to read a pqi file,

I haven't tried it but


Quote:

Take advantage of the new Norton Ghost 9.0 capabilities and backup image file format (.v2i) and still be able to access and restore backup images created by earlier versions of Drive Image (.pqi) and Norton Ghost (.gho).

from page 9 of the userguide.

Mack, don't assign any drive letters at all to the new HD when you partition.

answer from NightOwl Ghost expert
my preferred method of Ghost backups is *whole disk* backups.
Ghost does backup the first *absolute sector 0* which has the MBR code (Master Boot Record) and the Partition Table--but the rest of the Master Boot area which is *absolute sector 1 thru 62* is not backed up in Ghost's default mode--unless you use the Ghost command line switch *-ib* (image boot) which will then backup the whole Master Boot region of sectors 0 thru 62!

So, if there is special code in the Master Boot region sectors 1 thru 62, then you should use that *-ib* switch--and now a restore of that image will restore that region too--and should preserve that *F10* function!
....................................................
this is the theory behind the F10 recovery (belowLink)do not do that as yours is already done for you
and what you are doing now is to make a ghost image of the whole of the drive that is partion with image on also xp partition and the boot sector with the F10 boot manager.
that image then theoretically can be coloned to similar machines.


http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=14127&st=23

you need to use the real ghost.exe as instructed above to to recover the whole of boot sector .
to new 80gb drive.

regards Ben

:)

thx EP, Brian, Ben and Dan (I have spent quite a bit of time reading the info on your web site and almost emailed you the other day when I found your email in your home page but I resisted as I thought it not appropriate to pry into your family time as a stranger).

Well I am currently back on Broadband and had to reset my office stuff.  I am presently trying to see if there is a newer Bios for my sys.  Fujitsu only has the orginal one for download.  I went to Ph Bios and they are now referring me to another site.

I really just want to replace my old 40 with the new 80 but realize I should keep the old with important data on it in case of the 80 going down.  The image vs copying (cloning) is abit confusing as to which is really necessary, most efficent, etc.  I looked at my NS Premier 2005 and it does look like I have 2 NG, one is 2003 and the other says NGNT which must be what is installed on my laptop as NG 9.0

I am hoping to just copy (clone) the FAt32 29.7gb to an unallocated space and later convert it to NTFS.  Also the balance of the new 80gb would hold the data which I am presently going to start to move now from the old C: so as to have more space.

I have heard preferences for NG 2003 (EP) and also some advantages of NG9 wich is currently installed on the laptop.  I prefer to just use that one as I think the 2oo3 would have to be installed as opposed to being able to run it off the install cd.  No?

Mack
PS  Fujitsu just confimed they do not have a newer Bios for my machine.

Mack, there are numerous ways to achieve a clone of your 40 GB to the 80 GB HD. Each of us has a favourite technique and they all work. My favourite is Ghost 9 but that's not to say it's "better" than the other techniques.

Brian wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:09pm:

"... there are numerous ways to achieve a clone of your 40 GB to the 80 GB HD.  Each of us has a favourite technique and they all work. My favourite is Ghost 9 but that's not to say it's "better" than the other techniques..."

Although I do admit to be an old "cold-imaging mossyback" enamored of Norton Ghost 2003, in a serious crunch I will always choose Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 running from a Windows Preinstalled Environment CD. Thusfar, I have progressed to the Reatogo-X-PE Ver 240 of the BartPE CD, but installation CDs of either Norton Ghost 10 or Norton Save & Restore will still do the job when need be.

EP :'(  

El_Pescador wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:29pm:

Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 running from a Windows Preinstalled Environment CD.

I like that too and I've done some tests on Ghost 2003 and Acronis True Image which impressed me but I'll keep that information until later.

"The image vs copying (cloning) is abit confusing as to which is really necessary, most efficent, etc."

You mention you've been to my website, so I trust you understand the basic difference between an image and a clone.  For a task such as yours (replacing a HDD), cloning would be faster and save a step, but is less predictable.  If it works, then great, but at this point I think you'd agree it hasn't saved you any time, so I'd cut my losses and use imaging instead of cloning.

One reason cloning doesn't always work is that you're making Ghost guess how it's supposed to tweak the boot configuration because the target HDD isn't living in the spot it's eventually going to end up.  Sometimes Ghost guesses right, sometimes it doesn't.

With imaging, you can create your image and then swap HDDs.  When Ghost restores the image, the target is exactly where it's going to end up, so Ghost guesses pretty good in such cases.


"I have heard preferences for NG 2003 (EP) and also some advantages of NG9 wich is currently installed on the laptop.  I prefer to just use that one as I think the 2oo3 would have to be installed as opposed to being able to run it off the install cd.  No?"

Ghost 2003 doesn't need to be installed.  I think the Ghost 2003 CD is bootable, but regardless, it's simple enough to boot to DOS (from floppy, CD or USB flash drive) and run ghost.exe directly from the CD.

I don't think the Ghost version is material here.  I think it's a matter that you're stacking the odds against Ghost by trying to clone to a target that isn't even in the machine.  If you insist on cloning, I wouldn't be surprised if v2003 has the same trouble cloning from internal source to external target.  I think Ghost 9 will work okay if you use interim imaging instead of direct cloning.

Mack,

I’m off to bed shortly and I assume that you are running the clone process at present. I hope it succeeds. If it doesn’t then Dan’s suggestion is the next step. You only need to read on if the clone failed.

Start Ghost 9 and operate from the Basic window (the blue one). Click BackUp Drives and use the Wizard. Choose your C: drive and make the backup location the 50 GB NTFS data drive on the external HD.
choose High Compression (with USB 1, image creation time will be shorter)
tick Verify backup image after creation
don’t tick Divide the backup image into smaller files
don’t click Advanced

It will take 10 to 15+ hours to create the image depending on how much data you were able to move out of the C: drive.

I’ll be interested to hear what stage you are at, tomorrow.  

BIOS:  I finally found that I had to go to a site called e-support.  After doing the online diagnosis they indicated they would get back to me in 24 hrs.  Well I decided last night not to wait and so began the moving of data files to the 80gb.  That was half of my old drive, ha.  It did assign without my help the drive letter F:  This morning I got done with that.  Now I have began the copying of the C: to the 80gb, it's about 1/2 into it, using my installed NG 9.

I checked only:
Ck source for file sys errors
ck dest. for file sys errors
resize dirve to fill unallocated
set drive active (for starting OS)
destination type (primary)
copy mbr

I DID NOT assign a drive letter and I did delete the primary partition that I had made (30gb) so that the copying is presently going into an unallocated space.

Mack

What's next  ???

I just found this info on page 93 of the NG 9 manual.  Since I did check this box (Copy MBR) and yet I did make a data partition already and move data, I wonder if this could have been and will be again a problem for me in making the new 80gb boot once I install it in the laptop?

Thoughts?  Brian, Dan...............

Copy MBR

Copy the master boot record
from the source drive to the
destination drive. Select this
option if you are copying the
C:\ drive to a new, empty hard
drive. You should not select
this option if you are copying a
drive to another space on the
same hard drive as a backup
or if you are copying the drive
to a hard drive with existing
partitions that you will not be
replacing. Additionally, if you
are copying multiple drives to
a new, empty hard drive, you
only need to select this option
once.

Mack

Mackjazz wrote on Nov 1^st, 2006 at 11:56am:

"... What's next  ??? ..."

I have a Toyota 4WD KingCab pickup truck which I operate in two separate and distinct modes:

• (1)  When my load is light and the roadway is level for cruising, I keep the hubs of the front wheels unlocked and the transfer case in the default high-range setting albeit totally disengaged so only the rear wheels are driving.

• (2)  When faced with pulling a heavily laden boat trailer up a steep ramp, I dismount to lock the front wheel hubs and then remount to engage the transfer case while dropping into the low-range setting that ensures all four wheels will be pulling with maximum torque.

Using the above for an analogy, it seems to me that the wrong mode for the particular task at hand has been chosen.  Either Norton Ghost 2003 or Ghost Ver 8.2 running in a Windows Preinstalled Environment could have accomplished this unique job cleanly in a single pass while virtually "running-on-autopilot".

Oh, well - Chacun à son gout.

EP :'(

Mack,

Excellent. All your choices are correct. Symantec's wording on the MBR is convoluted but Copy MBR is what I've always chosen.

WELL FOLKS...........................

It took just over an hour this time to make the copy (clone).  I then shut everything down without any other changes, exchanged dirves, fired it up and WA LLLL AAAAAAAA............ everything came up perfect and it seems to work perfect.  I went in and checked email etc, then I shut it down and rebooted just to make sure.  So far so good.

Couple of observations:

The first time although it went through the black check screen super fast, as well as the blue screen to the desktop it was there that it took about 5 times as long to bring up my icons and be finished with the total loading.  However the second boot was fast on everything.  This drive is quieter but has a high pitched whine, but beggers should not be choosy :)

For quite awhle after the first boot was complete my cpu ran at 100% and I noticed that one of the several svchosts was using 80 to 90%.  The second reboot things seem more normal.

Couple of questions:

Can I use PM to resize my new C:  If so what would be a good recommendation for the sys size?  Also if and when I do this can I then use the extra space for my data partition which is NTFS?  Is it okay to have the C: a FAT32 and the D: NTFS?

My new data drive was assigned F and I normally use one of my external drives for F: (and I reallly need to continue doing so due to flle tracking and scanning) so can I use computer management to change the Data drive to D: ?  Any bad side effects?
I think I should do this sooner than later.

I also need to make an image of this new drive and intall on my old 40gb C: which of course will wipe out what is there now and I believe it has been suggested (Brian) that I leave the D: (old 40gb) DISE_BACKUP alone which I concur.  What are the suggested steps to do this?  What about making a restore point at this juncture?

Lastly Kudos to the gang who has helped me in all of this:

Namely:
Brian
Dan (your site is an awesome resource)
EP (The X got my several Suburban's w/manual hubs long ago:)
Ben
...... other's who indirectly contributed.

Kindly,
Mack

What a relief. I was a bit concerned after reading Dan's comments about cloning to an external HD but fortunately it worked anyway. Congratulations.


Quote:

Can I use PM to resize my new C:  If so what would be a good recommendation for the sys size?

Yes. How much used space do you expect to have on your C: drive when it has been "cleaned up"?


Quote:

Also if and when I do this can I then use the extra space for my data partition which is NTFS?  Is it okay to have the C: a FAT32 and the D: NTFS?

Yes.


Quote:

can I use computer management to change the Data drive to D: ?  Any bad side effects?

Yes. No.


Quote:

I also need to make an image of this new drive and intall on my old 40gb C: which of course will wipe out what is there now and I believe it has been suggested (Brian) that I leave the D: (old 40gb) DISE_BACKUP alone which I concur.  What are the suggested steps to do this?  What about making a restore point at this juncture?

Using PM I'd delete the C: drive on the old HD and create a NTFS partition. See my reply #30. Make a backup image, writing the image to the NTFS partition on the old HD.

Once you have a backup image it will be safe for you to think about the FAT32 to NTFS conversion (when you have the time). Make sure you do FAT32 4K aligned before the conversion. It's explained in the PM Help file.

A pleasure to work with you.

Mack, slight change of plan if you haven't already started. Write the image of your new HD C: drive to your new HD data drive and copy it (not move) to the NTFS partition on the old HD (using Windows Explorer) after you delete the old C: drive. Just belt and braces until you are fully set up.

Brian wrote: "I was a bit concerned after reading Dan's comments about cloning to an external HD but fortunately it worked anyway."

Direct cloning is not always a problem, and it is faster because it's one step instead of two, so use it when it works.  But while restoring from an image to an internal primary master HDD is drop-dead reliable, working with external HDDs introduces extra variables.  And not all of them do things exactly the same way--witness, for example, EP's work elsewhere sorting through USB drivers, or the discussion in another thread about flash drives.

In practice, I generally make a first attempt at direct cloning, but if it doesn't work I revert to image/restore for the second attempt.  Usually the first attempt works, but if it doesn't I don't want to spend 10 hours troubleshooting why, just to save an hour on the actual operation.

The C drive is pretty clean.  I moved the big data files already which took just over half of the 30gb on C.  I use this computer for work etc but I can't imagine needing more than 10 more gigs for additional program space.   I would say 20 or 25gb tops would be all I need for my sys C.  What I wanted to know is if there was a philosphy out there about the sys drive size?  Should it be as small as possible, doesn't matter or what?

Data will always grow which is why I like the larger D drive.  Plus I Dj and although I use 2 very large firewire ext drives (over 200gb) I like to have a solid core of good music kept on the D: data drive just in case I have an ext hd issue while working.

I have not started the transfer and image so I will go ahead and do as you said in your last note.  I did go back and read #30 but I am not sure aobut the setting of usb 1.  Is that a reference to usb transfer?  If so I use firewire as my puter does not have usb 2.0.  If not I will follow and disregard my question.

About how much space do you suppose this image will take or be?  My new D: data drive has about 29gb open.  And will the image be only of my new C:  What about a backup image of my new D: which is now housing my important data?  To me its even more important than my sys image.

I do understand that its temp as I will be copying it over to the old 40gb.  You mentioned to delete I think the old C: and make it a NTFS.  After doing all this what about the image now on the new D: data drive?  Am I leaving it so I have 2 copies?

thx bunches
Mack

Now that it's over I can confess. Mack wanted to make a clone and I helped out. With my computers I do what Dan suggests. I restore from images. My clones (and I've made dozens without a problem) have only been made in test situations. I prefer restoring images because that's what you have to do if there is a hard drive failure. And when I want to upgrade a HD, I already have a series of images of the previous OS.

thanks for all that information
just a word of advise keep that 40 Gb HDD safe
do not go fdisking it  you never know when it can come handy.

another question do you  still see the message at boot up saying
press F10(F11) to recover (for few seconds  like what you used to get with the 40 Gb drive ???

Good luck and regards Ben
:)

Mack, I didn't know that you had other external HDs. Use them to store the image instead of your old HD. They are likely to be faster too. Forget my comments on USB if you have Firewire. Make the compression "Normal" instead of "High". Image size is roughly 60% of the amount of used space on the C: drive.

OS partitions should be small so your images will be small. Your OS should never be more than 85% used space so take it from there.

Regarding backing up the new data drive. Don't use images.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/notes.htm#13

Use a data backup app. I use SecondCopy 7.

The two images are temporary. When you have the new C: drive as NTFS then delete the image from your new data drive. It's just there for convenience if you need to restore your C: drive in the event of an "accident".

The only things I see (Ben) are the F1 and F2 options at the beginning of the black screen which is the same that I saw on the old 40gb.  I don't remember a F10 but perhaps that could be due to my using NGo back?

So it sounds like I should just keep the old 40gb as it is (now that it has alot less data on it) just for a backup of my main stuff in case of a hd failure of the new 80gb correct?

But do make an image of the new C and store it temp in the D, then convert C from FAT to NTFS, then delete the image on D, then create a new image of C and store on one of my 2 big arger ext drives?  Although I have literally thousands of songs for my bus. I am sure I have space for this image.

One point I am not clear on.  I have the new C with the OS and all my programs and a D with just all my data.  Is that preferred or should my programs be somewhere else?  Perhaps on another partition?

I assume I am making an image of the whole C which would include all my programs etc.?

And is it prefered to change the small FAT32 to NTFS even now that it is smaller?  And will I still be able to resize the extra space saved on C to my data drive?  Sorry for the detailed questions?

Thanks Brian for the tip on how best to make my data copies.  I use to have mirrored hd for my music and now as time goes by I dont but it sounds like this program will greatly help me in this as well as my current needs.

Mack

Mack,


Quote:

So it sounds like I should just keep the old 40gb as it is (now that it has alot less data on it) just for a backup of my main stuff in case of a hd failure of the new 80gb correct?

Yes, that's fine.


Quote:

I have the new C with the OS and all my programs and a D with just all my data.  Is that preferred or should my programs be somewhere else?  Perhaps on another partition?

Your present setup if fine. Same as mine.


Quote:

I assume I am making an image of the whole C which would include all my programs etc.?

Yes. Analogous to the clone you just made.


Quote:

And is it prefered to change the small FAT32 to NTFS even now that it is smaller?  And will I still be able to resize the extra space saved on C to my data drive?

I can't answer the convert question. You will certainly be able to use PM to resize your partitions.


http://www.centered.com/download.html

I love this app. Everything is done automatically for you. It keeps the backup the same as the source.

Dan,

If you are still monitoring this thread would you please give your opiinion on the advantages or prefered reasons to change a say 20gb hd FAT32 (C: w/OS ) to NTFS or not?  I am not sure if I should or should not make my FAT32 C the same format as my larger D: NTFS.

thx
Mack

"...change a say 20gb hd FAT32 (C: w/OS ) to NTFS or not?"

On paper, the journaling file system of NTFS is supposed to be more robust and less error-prone that a FAT (FAT12/16/32) file system.  (My experience over the past few years is that the difference is slight, but real.)  Advantage: NTFS.

The overhead in managing the NTFS file system can be significant in small volume sizes.  (That's one reason why you don't see NTFS flash drives.)  Advantage: FAT32

FAT32 cluster sizes balloon as the size of the volume increases.  Large clusters are quite inefficient at storing small files.  On a volume with lots of small files, such as you'll find in the windows and system32 directories, a 32KB cluster size could waste 30% of your disk space.  (That's why Microsoft's tools--fdisk and diskpart--discourage the user from creating FAT32 volumes larger than 32GB.  Technically, it's allowed, but practically, it's too inefficient.)  Advantage: NTFS.

FAT32 volumes are accessible from the most recent DOS operating systems.  Advantage: depends on whether you're a techie who does that sort of thing.

The FAT32 file system is an industry-wide standard, so is supported by numerous third-party utilities.  NTFS is proprietary, and I don't think Microsoft has ever fully published the specs.  (I suspect third-party tools that support NTFS have done a lot of reverse-engineering to figure out how NTFS works.)  Advantage: FAT32.

Bottom line: FAT32 is fine for small partition sizes, but NTFS is better for larger partitions.

On volumes smaller than 8GB, I generally use FAT32.  On volumes above 16GB, I use NTFS.  On volumes between 8-16GB, I'll use either, depending on whether I need the volume to be visible from DOS.  (Note that 8, 16, and 32 GB are breakpoints where FAT32 cluster sizes change.)

Mack,

Your first Copy Drive took 18 hours and the successful one took 1 hour. Do you have any theories why the first took so long? I think it was because the C: drive contained 97.5 % used space. Moving files off the C: drive allowed the copy process to proceed at a normal speed.

Dan, is this reasonable?

Hey thanks folks..............

Dan again, you are amazing and everything you said made sense to me.  I suspect in conclusion that the Primary drive usually consists of the OS and programs.  The logical and/or ext drives must house most everything else and thus are generally larger in containment of information.

One of the things I had heard of FAT32 advantage was speed access over NTFS.  I think I read somewhere on the MS site that that was true by about 10 to 20%.

I wonder how many folks out there have C: drives with under 20 gigs of info on them?  If most of us have 15 or more it sounds like NTFS is the way to go.  I also wonder how many folks out there have a C: FAT32 (OS) and a NTFS (data) combo for whatever reason?

If one uses (checked) NTFS with indexing service for fast file search and compressing drive to save space would that in theory cause the NTFS partition a slowness in general drive execution?

To comment on your question Brian my theory is this.  That because I had only a few 100 mbs available for virtual memory (total of 750mb - but I could only use a couple of 100) on the old C:, that caused the executions of cloning to do alot of give and take (I don't know the proper computer techy terms) shuffling, and swapping in order to get the job done.  After I moved the data files and folders as you suggested I went back into the computer virtual memory options and I changed the min and the max(about 800mb) which I theorized would allow the executions more of a straight shoot in processing the copying.  And of course the total size was cut in half (50%).  But that would in theory reduce the time to about 8 or 9 hrs but not down to 1.

Last night I ran Norton Win doc and N Disk doc, Adware, full virus scan and then defraged the C and D.  Today I have run Win doc twice again.  Each time it has found some errors especially since I moved a slug of data files to the D: drive.  On the old machine everything was on the C:

Amazing at how fast the 80 flys now compared to the 40 (and by the way due to budget constraints the specs on both drives are the same - only difference was size increase) when the drive is cleaned and organized.  I needed to test out most of my frequently used programs and data files before I do the image backup, which is what I have been doing today.  Then I plan to defrag again and then do a restore point.  Then the image to one of the large EXT drives for backup.  The jury is still out on whether I will change the C from FAT to NTFS.  I tend to like the arguments of Dan and as I look toward the future, figure my C: drive may reach 20gb in program size which a NTFS would be best (currently the C: is 13.5gb in size, pretty much borderline according to Dan.

Any other comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated.  The knowledge all of you gentlemen have so freely shared, I treasure highly and as the concept which I believe in, (PayItForward) it is my wish to help those in the future concerning their upgrading needs and working knowledge to accomplish their tasks themselves.  I am only able to do it because of the time, talents and skills you have generously shared with me.

Gratefully,
Mack

Mack,


Quote:

Amazing at how fast the 80 flys now compared to the 40

That makes the HD upgrade even more worthwhile.


Quote:

The jury is still out on whether I will change the C from FAT to NTFS.  I tend to like the arguments of Dan and as I look toward the future, figure my C: drive may reach 20gb in program size which a NTFS would be best (currently the C: is 13.5gb in size, pretty much borderline according to Dan.

I thought Dan was referring to total partition size, not amount of data.


Quote:

(Note that 8, 16, and 32 GB are breakpoints where FAT32 cluster sizes change.)

So you qualify for NTFS as your total partition size is well over 16 GB. You can do the whole process from Partition Magic (Windows). I did it once, a few years ago. 4K aligned first, then convert. It's great to know that if anything goes wrong, you can just restore an image.

Mack wrote: "as I look toward the future, figure my C: drive may reach 20gb in program size which a NTFS would be best (currently the C: is 13.5gb in size, pretty much borderline according to Dan.)"

Brian wrote: "I thought Dan was referring to total partition size, not amount of data."

Brian is correct.  Cluster size is directly related to the total number of clusters the partition must support, whether those clusters are empty or in use.  The bigger the partition, the bigger the cluster size needs to be to keep the total number of clusters within a managable range.

The amount of wasted space (aka, "slack space") on a partition depends on the actual mix of files stored on the partition.  Large quantities of small files is murder when coupled with a large cluster size.

I can't get my seem to get my programs and system partition under 20 gigs as well...  I always knew NTFS was better for this through trial and error but didn't know WHY....

Once again you folks have educated me; I learn as much in these threads as I do in college, except it's free! and variates in degree.

Thanks to Dan, Mack, Brian and all others for the unfathomable knowledge base.

That's great, MadtKrandle you can benefit from this challenge of mine and from the great coaching of Brian, Dan and others in helping  me.

Dan and Brian I have 2 questions:
Since I have 13.5gb of data on C: I think I understand that I should make my C: format NTFS, correct?  I should convert it over from FAT32?

And second, I noticed that WinXP can convert FAT32 to NTFS.  Should I use XP or my Partition Magic to make this conversion?  Does one have a better quality track record over the other?

thx
Mack

PS  One of the reasons why I have not converted yet is because I had 2 gigs this last weekend, one in So Cal and the other in Tempe, AZ with more than 500 customers and I just did not want to take a chance that my computer would have any hicups while entertaining.  Everything did go smoothly with my computer, ext drives, etc, etc.  The only thing that happened was one of the outlets tripped and I lost about 4 minutes of playing time.  Who would have thunk that at the Chicago Cubs Spring Training Hohokum Stadium with commerical 20 amp breakers and outlets that 1/3 of my system would have caused the trip especially since I used three separate circuits at the stadium to run my equipment.  Anyhow thanks for getting me secure before this past big weekend!!!

Mack,

Welcome back.

http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/ntfscvt.php

Obviously WinXP can't do the conversion properly on its own. You have to do 4K aligned otherwise you finish with 512 byte clusters. That happened to me on the first run. Then I did the whole process in Partition Magic and it was easy.

So is there anything tricky in coverting from FAT32 to NTFS using Partition Magic?  Or just follow the prompts and it will guide me through this 4k alignment (which I don't understand), etc, etc?

thx
Mack

Mack, I think it was just a few clicks and wait.


Quote:

To convert FAT/FAT32 to 4K aligned 1 Select a disk and a FAT/FAT32 partition. You can see which partitions are labeled FAT or FAT32 by looking at the Type column in the partition list. 2 Click Partition > Convert. 3 Click FAT32 (4K aligned). 4 Click OK.

Quote:

To convert FAT/FAT32 to NTFS (Windows 2000/XP only) 1 Select a disk and a FAT/FAT32 partition. You can see which partitions are labeled FAT or FAT32 by looking at the Type column in the partition list. 2 Click Partition > Convert. 3 Click NTFS. 4 Click Yes to continue with the conversion. Because Windows NT (FAT to NTFS) or Windows 2000/XP (FAT32 to NTFS) performs the conversion, when you click Yes, PartitionMagic automatically applies any pending changes that are listed in the Operations Pending dialog box and exits. The Convert utility is then started. 5 If you have open files, a message appears indicating that the convert utility cannot gain exclusive access to the hard disk and asks if you want to schedule the conversion the next time the computer restarts. If you type Y, the conversion will automatically take place when you reboot the computer. After typing Y you should close PartitionMagic and manually reboot the computer to complete the conversion. If you do not have any open files, the Batch Progress dialog box appears. Click OK to return to the PartitionMagic main window. The partition is converted. .

So am I to understand that its a 2 part process?

1. to go from Fat32 to 4k aligned

2.  Fat32 4k aligned to NTFS

And somewhere in this process do I choose what I want the partition size to be or is that done as a separate process, later?

thx
Mack

Mackjazz wrote on Nov 7^th, 2006 at 5:16pm:

So am I to understand that its a 2 part process?

Yes.


Quote:

And somewhere in this process do I choose what I want the partition size to be or is that done as a separate process, later?

Later.

Great.........

thx again for being a greater 'puter mentor!!

Mack

Brian or Dan,

I have finally come to the point where I feel prepared to convert my C: Fat32 to NTFS.  I have Symantec Partition Magic 8.05 installed on my C:  I assume I can do these functions from the installed program as opposed to doing it from the PM cd.

Although I do find a fair amount of info on the Fat32 to 4k aligned issue,  I cannot find any option to do this in the PM menus etc.  I select the C: paritition, then convert and the only option is NTFS.  I see an extended parition between the C: and my NTFS Data D: but it does not look like it has anything in it.

I am frustrated that I cannot do this Fat32 to 4k aligned.  The only other options I see are resize parititions and a resize clusters option.

Can you tell me why I can't see or do the Fat32 to 4k aligned?

Thx...............once again
Mack
PS I have searched the Symantec site but to no avail also.

Mackjazz

Quoting from the PartitionMagic User Guide, page 73:


Quote:

Converting FAT/FAT32 Partitions to 4K Aligned Unlike an NTFS partition, the first cluster in a FAT or FAT32 partition is not located at the beginning of the partition. Instead, all the FAT clusters come after a group of sectors that are designated as a system area. Because the number of sectors needed for this system area varies, the first cluster may not be aligned on any particular boundary. During a convert operation from FAT or FAT32 to NTFS, all the sectors in the system area must be converted to clusters. The cluster size of the resulting NTFS partition is dependent on how many sectors are in the system area. If the number of sectors in the system area is a multiple of eight, then the NTFS cluster size can be up to 4K in size (8 sectors x 512 bytes per sector equals 4K). If the number of sectors is not a multiple of eight, then a smaller cluster size must be used when converting to NTFS. When you convert a FAT or FAT32 partition to 4K aligned, the operation will check the number of sectors in the system area to see if it is a multiple of eight. If it is not, it will adjust the value by padding the number of sectors in the system area and shifting all the data clusters accordingly. This will ensure that if you decide to convert the partition to NTFS at a later time, it is possible to have 4K clusters on the resulting partition.

I have the older PowerQuest v8.xx version of PM--so your user guide pages may differ.

Starting on page 70:


Quote:

The basic conversion steps (1-5) are found below. However, for each file system type there is specific information you need to know before beginning any conversion. Please see the appropriate heading listed in this section before completing the conversion procedure. 1 Select the partition you want to convert. 2 Click Partition > Convert. The Convert Partition dialog appears. 3 Under Convert to, choose the file system to which you want to convert the partition.

Quote:

Procedure for Converting Partitions You can convert the following file system formats: --FAT partitions to FAT32 --FAT partitions to NTFS (Windows NT/2000/XP only) --FAT32 partitions to FAT --FAT32 partitions to NTFS (Windows 2000/XP only) --FAT/FAT32 partitions to 4K aligned --NTFS partitions to FAT --NTFS partitions to FAT32

Thanks Nightowl.

Yes, you are correct.  I have the same info on the same pages (ie 73pg) and I have been all through this stuff every which way I can think of.

I am just frustrated because when I select the C: Fat32 partition, then from the menu select Parition and then Convert from the dropdown, a window similiar to the one you quoted opens.  However this is where its different.  It has 2 columns.  On the left side it has only 3 choices. Fat, Fat32 and NTFS.  The first 2 are greyed out so one can't even choose them which leaves only one choice, that of the NTFS.  There is no choice or option for Fat/Fat32 to 4k aligned.  I don't understand it.  On the right side is the Primary and Logical options and the Primary is greyed out.  The only other thing I can think of is that I should try to do this from the cd instead of PM installed on my C: which is the drive I am trying to convert from Fat32 to NTFS?



Mack

Mack, I don't have the 4K aligned choice either. It looks like it's been removed from ver 8.05 because when I did it a few years ago I was likely using a pre 8 version.

That's OK. You can do it this way. The 4k aligned part.

http://www.aumha.org/win5/a/ntfscvt.php

Make a BING floppy or CD. You don't need to install BING, just run it from the boot disc. It is a very interesting app.

Then you can do FAT32 to NTFS with PM.

Brian,

Thanks so much for the input.  I was beginning to pull my hair out again.  I waited online in chat mode with symantec for 45 min (in the que) then when I got the tech she was from India and had a hard time writing and really knew less than I did.  In the end she said my PM 8 must be corrupt and so I needed to uninstall and re install.  I told her I highly doubted that would change the options shown in the box.  When I first asked her she had to have me explain what 4k aligned was.  Boy did I know then that I was in for a good time with little expertise help.

I am going to bed and hopefully you are already there and will do this first thing in the morning.  I want this all done and running by thursday eve.

thanks again for your undying support.
Mack

It will be a few hours before I go to bed. GMT +11.

The BING download contains a PDF and Step 1 starting on page 7 is what you need. Don't use Step 1 on page 8. You don't have to separately download MakeDisk as it's included in your BING download.

If you don't have a floppy drive make an ISO and then burn it to a CD. Remember to defrag after the 4K aligned process has completed.

Mackjazz

PartitionMagic gives a different display depending on which partition I choose--I'm betting that if you do not get the *4k align* option that your partition is already *aligned*.

http://nightowl.radified.com/forumimages/4kalign-1.JPG


http://nightowl.radified.com/forumimages/4kalign-2.JPG

Yes NigihtOwl the second insert pic that you showed is the only box that opens and gives me the only choice of NTFS.  Fat and Fat32 are greyed out so the only choice I have is NTFS.  So you think that my Fat32 may already be aligned and set for conversion and thus the 4k is not an issue in my case?   You think that this is a new feature maybe built into PM 8 whereas the older versions had it as a manual choice?  I wonder why the techs at Symantec don't know that or didn't say?  Perhaps you should be working there as the Tech who teaches techs!!  Ha.

I assume Brian the Bing you refer to is the same as the BootitNG.com program referred to in that article you left me?  I will download it and do as you recommend just to make sure that my disk is 4k aligned unless I hear back first from the symantec email I sent in after I chatted with the tech online.  Since my gigs are tomorrow I think I will wait to do all this major conversion till after the weekend just so I don't have any more headaches.  I do have a floppy drive to do this boot program. (Are you in the Far East?)

thx guys bunches.
Mack

Mack, I tried the 4K aligned procedure using BING (BootItNG) on the FAT32 partition that had no PM menu for 4K aligned. It took 1 second. As NightOwl suggested, the partition must have been 4K aligned already. I guess you never know until you try.