My main PC is a Dell 670 Precision Workstation fitted with SCSI disks. and I am considering the purchase of Norton Ghost 10 or Norton Save & Restore for the primary purpose of facilitating a rapid restoration of my C: disk (containing Win XP Pro and all my apps) to a replacement disk.  I need some guidance before parting with my money.

In the event that I wish to replace my C: disk with a larger disk it would be possible for me to have both disks attached at the same time and I understand that Norton provides a tool to enable copying Windows, etc, from one disk to the other. Does this tool work well? Are there any known limitations?

I understand that Ghost creates an image of the system disk. This suggests to me that everything is stored in a single very large image file. Can this file be split across multiple DVD-R disks? If not, how do you go about reducing the image size?

What are the key differences between Ghost 10 and Save & Restore?

David

David_Anderson,

I think you will find either app suitable.


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What are the key differences between Ghost 10 and Save & Restore?

The latter has Files and Folders backup as well as Image (Recovery Point) backup.


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Can this file be split across multiple DVD-R disks?

Yes, but most of us prefer storing backup images on a HD. DVDs are very slow to use in the backup or restore situation. I use DVDs occasionally as a secondary backup.


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I understand that Norton provides a tool to enable copying Windows, etc, from one disk to the other.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=1148252120;start=

What you will be mainly doing is creating backup images (Recovery Points) of your C: drive and storing these backup images on your second HD, as well as storing some on an external HD and maybe DVDs. Redundancy. If your OS becomes corrupted or if the primary HD fails then you boot to the Ghost CD and restore the backup image. A 5 to 10 minute job in my case.

Both apps allow the creation of Incremental Recovery points. For example, you can create a Baseline Recovery point on Monday and incremental recovery points on the other six days. These points are around 2% of the baseline size so you are able to keep quite a history of recovery points if you want the ability to restore to a specific day.

Thanks for the info, Brian. Just to be certain, can you please clarify whether there is any difference between NG10 and NS&R with respect to the inclusion of an older version of Ghost. I understand that some people believe there is an extra level of robustness (perhaps traded for ease of use?) in these older versions.

Any general comments on the reliability of the Ghost process would be much appreciated. Are there scenarios where this software can be totally trusted and others where caution is advised?

Does the size of the disk image simply match the size of the disk, or are things a little more complicated than that? Can I restore or copy my Ghosted system disk into a new partition on a replacement disk or must it use the whole disk?

Are there any useful advantages to buying the boxed product rather than the download version? If I understand it correctly, the boxed version saves me having to burn the Ghost CD myself and provides a printed manual. Burning a CD is no big deal. Is the manual a substantial affair that would be a pain to print at home from a PDF file?

Finally (for now), is Symantec likely to offer a free or discounted upgrade to V12 if it appears just a few weeks after I buy V10 or V11?

David

David_Anderson wrote on Mar 17^th, 2007 at 5:08pm:

Finally (for now), is Symantec likely to offer a free or discounted upgrade to V12 if it appears just a few weeks after I buy V10 or V11?

Ghost 12 will be released in 3 weeks. It supports Vista. That's what I'd buy. I've tried the beta and it looks like a cross between Ghost 9 and 10.


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is any difference between NG10 and NS&R

I still use Ghost 9. I prefer its "feel" but I don't think it's more reliable than the other Ghosts. I've restored hundreds of images using the DOS and Windows Ghosts. Not one failure. It's personal preference as to what people use. I don't like the Files and Folders feature of NSR. Proprietary files are used as the backup. I prefer the same file format as the original file.

In general, Ghost 9 won't restore images made with later versions but later versions will restore images made with earlier versions.  Some people using Ghost 10 and NSR have had issues with seeing external HDs from the Recovery Environment but NightOwl has provided a solution.  


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Does the size of the disk image simply match the size of the disk, or are things a little more complicated than that?

If you don't store music or video files on your C: drive then the backup image is 50 to 70% of the size of the Used Space in the C: drive. This depends on the level of compression chosen in Ghost.


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Are there any useful advantages to buying the boxed product rather than the download version?

No. If the download is cheaper, get it. You can read the userguide pdf from your computer. I wouldn't print it.

Brian,
I've just bought a larger and faster disk to replace my current system disk, so it would be a little frustrating to wait 3 weeks before being able to use NG to facilitate the disk swap. I won't be using Vista for at least 2 years. Is there any other good reason to wait for V12?

You didn't quite answer my question about whether NG10 and NS&R include the same older version(s) of NG. You refer to V9, but I thought I read somewhere on this forum that 8.2 was the last of the 'original' Ghost versions that were supposed to offer certain advantages. Please clarify.

David

David_Anderson wrote on Mar 17^th, 2007 at 6:04pm:

I've just bought a larger and faster disk to replace my current system disk, so it would be a little frustrating to wait 3 weeks before being able to use NG to facilitate the disk swap.

You don't need to buy software to clone a HD. CopyWipe is free. A little slow but it works. Do you have a floppy drive? It can be run from a bootable CD as well or from BartPE. Just an alternative if you want to clone your HD TODAY.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/copywipe.php


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s there any other good reason to wait for V12?

See http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=ghost9_10;action=display;num=1170186107;start=0#0


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You didn't quite answer my question about whether NG10 and NS&R include the same older version(s) of NG.

I'm guessing but the Ghost components of these two products look very similar.


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that 8.2 was the last of the 'original' Ghost versions that were supposed to offer certain advantages.

Ghost 8.2 has DOS and Windows versions. The Windows version is included in the Ghost 10 and NSR CDs. We don't think it's included in the Ghost 12 CD. I rarely use it but others think it's great.

If you don't plan to use Vista for years, I suggest Ghost 10. Have a look at El_Pescador's posts. He finds deals on software that makes the final cost almost zero.

[quote author=David_Anderson  link=1174152130/0#4 date=1174172654]"... You didn't quite answer my question about whether NG10 and NS&R include the same older version(s) of NG.  You refer to V9, but I thought I read somewhere on this forum that 8.2 was the last of the 'original' Ghost versions that were supposed to offer certain advantages. Please clarify..."[/quote]
In the USA, retail boxed copies of Norton Ghost 10.0 (a "hot-imaging" derivative of PowerQuest Drive
Image 7.n) contain a lagniappe installation CD of Norton Ghost 2003 (the latest consumer version
of the "cold-imaging" DOS-dependent legacy Ghost) which is prized by reactionary throwbacks like myself.  What may be confusing is that a very useful alternative to using Norton Ghost 2003 for creating a "disk-to-image" Norton Ghost Backup image is employing Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 running in a Windows XP Preinstalled Environment.

To do so, boot with an installation CD for either: (1) Norton Ghost 10.0; (2) Norton Save & Restore; or the Symantec Recovery Disk included with the Norton SystemWorks 2006 Premier suite.  Then, immediately engage the legacy Backup/Restore "cold-imaging" procedures by following the path 'Recover > Recover Data on My Computer > Recover using a legacy Ghost image'.  Doing so will yield the side benefit of bypassing both USB mass-storage device and - most, if not all - SATA HDD glitches frequently encountered with DOS-dependent Norton Ghost 2003.  In essence, this procedure uses restoreghost.exe (an alternate name for ghost32.exe) to allow both immediate creation of Ghost Backup images or the converse Recovery of such images that are in fact totally compatible and interchangeable with those *.gho/*.ghs files created with the ghost.exe of Norton Ghost 2003 - but not with those files created with Norton Ghost 9, Norton Ghost 10.0, or Norton Save & Restore during "hot-imaging".

CLICK HERE for the current bargain price on the Symantec utility suite software shown below, and then CLICK HERE to download the $50.00 rebate form.  I would be very surprised if the essential elements of Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 were not onboard, and somewhat surprised if Norton Ghost 2003 were not there embedded in a *.msi file.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/El_Pescador/Premier2007.jpg

EP :'(

El_Pescador wrote on Mar 17^th, 2007 at 6:40pm:

"... I would be very surprised if the essential elements of Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 were not onboard, and somewhat surprised if Norton Ghost 2003 were not there embedded in a *.msi file..."

In the event anyone is considering extracting legacy Ghost application files from archived sectors of Norton SystemWorks Premier Edition - regardless of vintage - then CLICK HERE.

EP :'(  

David, I omitted to mention the topic of drivers on the Ghost CD. The most recent Ghosts will have the most up to date SATA/RAID, SCSI and Network drivers. For example, the stock Ghost 9 CD doesn't see my SATA HDs. I've modified the CD.

On this basis I'd recommend Ghost 12. I know, I've recommended just about every version since this thread began. Actually I prefer Ghost 12 to Ghost 10 or NSR. The GUI is more like Ghost 9.

El_Pescador

In reading the description of *NORTON SYSTEMWORKS PREMIER 2007*--I suspect it will not come with Ghost 2003 as a separate *extra* like found in Ghost 10's retail version.

Ghost 10 continued to have a separate Ghost 2003 installation CD because Symantec was still supporting Win98, and WinME, and WinNT when Ghost 10 was first released.  Since then, Symantec is no longer supporting those OS's with their current release of Norton Save and Restore (the current version of *Ghost*), and I do not believe you get Ghost 2003 included with Norton Save and Restore!



David_Anderson

If you choose to download Ghost 10--you will get the full version--I believe you get an *.iso* file to burn to CD which will act as your installation CD, and as the emergency Recovery Disk if you need to boot to the Recovery Environment--but unlike the retail version, you will not get the extra Ghost 2003 installation CD--just Ghost 10.

NightOwl wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 12:55am:

"... In reading the description of *NORTON SYSTEMWORKS PREMIER 2007*--I suspect it will not come with Ghost 2003 as a separate *extra* like found in Ghost 10's retail version..."

I quite agree, but I would nonetheless be a bit surprised if elements of Norton Ghost 2003 were not deeply embedded in a Data.cab file alongside a *.msi file on the NSWP installation CD itself - but not on the Symantec Recovery Disk included with the Norton SystemWorks Premier suite.  At any rate, here is the very latest Symantec bargain that I could come up with.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/El_Pescador/NAVbund60.jpg

CLICK HERE for all the details.

EP :'(

Brian wrote on Mar 17^th, 2007 at 6:37pm:

You don't need to buy software to clone a HD. CopyWipe is free. A little slow but it works. Do you have a floppy drive? It can be run from a bootable CD as well or from BartPE. Just an alternative if you want to clone your HD TODAY.

Thanks to everyone for all the useful advice. If CopyWipe for Windows can cope with my immediate requirement to replace my system disk, then I can wait for NG12.

However, I need some guidance on CopyWipe options. So far, I haven't been able to track down a CopyWipe forum so I'm hoping that someone here has practical experience with this tool. The three copy options are Scale Size, Straight Copy and Raw Sector Copy. I will be copying from a 36GB disk to a 146GB disk but, ideally, I want to copy everything into a 50GB partition on the target disk. Is this possible? If so, how?

David

David, CopyWipe can't do that I'm afraid. But we can do that with other software.

Do you have Partition Magic? That will do it easily. If not, we'll use BootIt NG. There is a 4 week trial usage. Let me know which way we need to go.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html

PS CopyWipe either resizes the clone to fill the new HD or copies at the original size. You can't manually choose a custom final size.

I've just unearthed a copy of Partition Magic V8.0 but I've still to remind myself what it does...

David, PM is really the easiest way to clone partitions. Easier than Ghost. Give me an hour and I'll post instructions.

You will need the PM boot CD or floppies. It's not done from Windows.

Brian,
Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated. In case it is of any importance, I have PowerQuest PM V 8.01 (dated 2003), i.e. it's not a Symantec/Norton branded version of the product.

I only seem to have the PM installation CD. Is that the same as the "PM boot CD"? If not, I'll have to dust off some floppies - not something I've used for several years!

David

See if you can boot to it.

David, I assume you only have one partition on your 36 GB HD.

Install your 146 GB HD in the computer and make sure both HDs are seen in the BIOS. Boot to the PM CD.

Click the drop down arrow to get Disk 2. It should all be Unallocated Space. Right click in the US and click Create. The following are the only fields to use. Make it a Primary Partition, NTFS, Label 1, Size 50000 MB. OK.

Right click in the US and click Create. Make it a Primary Partition, NTFS, Label 2, Leave Size alone. OK.

Right click in the first Partition, the one you labelled 1 and click Delete. Yes. Now click Apply.

When it's finished click the drop down arrow to get Disk 1. Right click in your partition and click Copy. The next window should be your US on Disk 2. Click OK, Apply, Yes.

When it's finished use the drop down arrow to get Disk 2 and Right click in the second Partition, the one you labelled 2 and click Delete. Yes. Now click Apply.

When it's finished exit from PM. Shut down your computer, remove the 36 GB HD from your computer, move the 146 GB cables to the boot position and start your computer. I expect to hear good news.

David, I just realized I left out the final resize step. Not to worry. We can do it after everything is complete. We need to resize the new partition from 36 GB to 50 GB. A 10 second job.

This resize step should have happened before deleting the partition labeled 2.

To resize after you have finished....
Boot to the PM CD. Right click in your 36 GB partition and click Resize/Move. In the New Size field type 50000 (or whatever you desire). OK, Apply, Yes.
Exit from PM and reboot.

Brian,
I have just finished the process exactly per your description. Your last post arrived after I had started, but I worked out the need myself for resizing the partition before exiting PM. I am delighted to say that everything appears to be ok - so far. I now have a 146GB 15k SCSI disk running in place of the previous 36GB 10k SCSI disk.

I never knew that PM could do such things. I am extremely grateful for your assistance. You have saved me a lot of time and effort!!!!
;D ;D ;D ;D

Very pleasing. Glad I could help.

It's been a while since I've copied partitions with PM. After I realized I'd left out a step I also realized that we didn't need to create those two partitions either. Anyway, it was fun.

David_Anderson wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 7:14pm:

I now have a 146GB 15k SCSI disk running in place of the previous 36GB 10k SCSI disk.

I haven't used SCSI disks. Do you subjectively notice an OS speed difference between 10k and 15k?

Brian,
I haven't played enough with the new setup to find out if there is a noticeable speed improvement. The old drive had very little free space and was badly fragmented. The copy process recreated that same fragmentation on the new drive, so I'm currently in the middle of defragging it.

I'll report back within a day or two whether I can see an obvious change of speed.

I've been using SCSI disks in Dell Precision Workstations for many years. Perhaps I'm tempting providence, but I have never had any disk failures - unlike the IDE disks I used to use. SCSI disks are built to higher quality standards to cope with running 24/7 in server arrays. Most of my disks have been bought new via eBay at much less than list price.

David

David_Anderson wrote on Mar 18^th, 2007 at 7:46pm:

The old drive had very little free space and was badly fragmented.

That's interesting. What was the % of free space? I read somewhere (so it may not be true) that you need at least 15 % free space to perform a clone. Have you proven this % incorrect?

If I remember correctly, there was 5.5GB free on the original 36GB disk - which is just over 15%. In percentage terms, I guess my disk wasn't quite as full as I implied but in absolute terms 5.5GB seemed like a very small margin for expansion.

The rule of thumb you quote may still be correct and I may have been lucky not to trip over such a problem.

For defragmenting, Diskeeper won't work if the free space is less than 15 %. PerfectDisk claims to work with 5 % free space.

Brian,
The prime motivation for the disk change was to get more space. The price premium I paid for that disk to be a 15k rpm version instead of 10k was not that great so I was happy to give it a go.

Unfortunately, I never established any benchmarks before swapping the system disks so it is impossible to quantify any improvements resulting from the increased rotation speed. However, my gut feel is that most of my heavy duty Adobe apps are opening faster than before (and a virus scan of the system disk was running in the background when I did this check).

Bottom line? 15k rpm disks won't change your life but if you can get them for not too high a premium over 10k disks they may well prove a good investment. You can never have too much speed...

David

David, is Ghost 12 still on the horizon? If you go ahead, let us know what you think of the application.

Brian,
Yes, I'm still interested in getting a reliable and easy to use tool for making image backups of my system disk. I use Retrospect for my data backups but Retrospect's disaster recovery solution appears to be rather complicated and prone to failure. NG12 will probably be the answer, though I am a little disappointed to find that Symantec does not offer a trial version of Ghost. I'll wait to see what you guys think of it...

David

David,

You can get trialware. I think it creates images of all partitions and restores images of non OS partitions. It can't restore OS partitions as you don't have a Recovery Environment CD. It won't do Copy My Hard Drive.

http://shop.symantecstore.com/store/symnahho/en_US/DisplayCategoryProductListTrialPage/ThemeID.106300/Software/categoryID.6272300

David_Anderson wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 6:11pm:

"... though I am a little disappointed to find that Symantec does not offer a trial version of Ghost..."

CLICK HERE to review an offer to buy a Symantec bundle for a pittance - in the USA, at any rate ::)

EP :'(

For a set of comparison benchmarks on hard disk drive performance, see:  Drive Performance Resource Center.

Brian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 6:19pm:

David, You can get trialware. I think it creates images of all partitions and restores images of non OS partitions. It can't restore OS partitions as you don't have a Recovery Environment CD. It won't do Copy My Hard Drive. http://shop.symantecstore.com/store/symnahho/en_US/DisplayCategoryProductListTrialPage/ThemeID.106300/Software/categoryID.6272300

Interesting. The Symantec UK site only lists 5 trialware products (ref http://www.symantecstore.com/dr/sat4/ec_main.entry25?page=TrialwareUK&client=Symantec&sid=27685). There is no mention of any version of Ghost on that list. I don't know if that's a mistake or a deliberate marketing decision. However, there is nothing to stop me downloading trialware from the US site. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

David

El_Pescador wrote on Mar 21^st, 2007 at 6:36pm:

CLICK HERE to review an offer to buy a Symantec bundle for a pittance - in the USA, at any rate ::)

According to this web page (http://shop3.outpost.com/template/help/index/FE30/Service3/Assistance/Left_Topics/A11WarrantiesRebates),
"Most rebates are only available in the United States and Canada unless otherwise specified".