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Rad Community Technical Discussion Boards (Computer Hardware + PC Software) >> Norton Ghost 15, 14, 12, 10, 9, + Norton Save + Restore (NS+R) >> Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
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Message started by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:35am

Title: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:35am
My job has me on the road all the time, so I do all of my computing on a Notebook PC.   I need a backup program to not only to create/restore an image of my notebook's hard drive onto an external USB hard drve, but most importantly, a backup program that can faithfully restore an image that was created on my notebook onto a new notebook (in the event mine gets stolen, damaged, or whatever).

From what I've been told, the type of restore I underlined above is very difficult to assure with a high level of certainty. As everything important to me is on my notebook, should anything happen to my current notebook I must be able to do that kind of restore (without any uncertainty), so I've come here to get the facts and the best version of Ghost (if any) to do the job.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by acosby on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:52am
That's exactly what ghost does.  How reliable are you wanting it to be?  "Without any uncertainty" is a phrase that can very seldom be satisfied with computers.  Mr. Murphy provides the most applicable maxim in that respect.
To answer your questions:
Yes, ghost will backup and "faithfully" restore images onto a new drive.
No, it may not work all the time--if you find anything that will, definitely let me know.
It's good enough for me, and I'm watching over medical/legal records, if that's any help.
As to what version, what is your OS, and how old are your notebooks?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:58am
The short answer:  No.

Imaging software programs such as Ghost and others are designed so that you can restore your HARD DRIVE in case of a HARD DRIVE failure.  They are and never were designed to allow you to migrate to a newer computer.

Here's the simple logic test:  Do you think you can remove your laptop hard drive as it exists today and install it into any laptop you want (any brand, any model, old or new) and expect it to boot, much less work?  The answer is no.

I use Ghost for two purposes:  one for hardware or software/visus protection.  I can restore last week's backup onto a blank hard drive in the event of a hard drive failure.  

Secondly my Ghost image backup contains all my data documents, files, pictures, email etc.  In the event my computer is destroyed, stolen, etc. I can buy a new computer, install application software from cd's, and then copy/restore my user-data, email etc. from my Ghost backup.




Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:03am

acosby wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:52am:
That's exactly what ghost does.  How reliable are you wanting it to be?  "Without any uncertainty" is a phrase that can very seldom be satisfied with computers.  Mr. Murphy provides the most applicable maxim in that respect.
To answer your questions:
Yes, ghost will backup and "faithfully" restore images onto a new drive.
No, it may not work all the time--if you find anything that will, definitely let me know.
It's good enough for me, and I'm watching over medical/legal records, if that's any help.
As to what version, what is your OS, and how old are your notebooks?

I am currently usng Windows XP Home Edition on my notebook.  If and when I have to purchase a replacement notebook it would most likely have Windows Vista.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:11am

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:58am:
The short answer:  No.

Imaging software programs such as Ghost and others are designed so that you can restore your HARD DRIVE in case of a HARD DRIVE failure.  They are and never were designed to allow you to migrate to a newer computer.

Here's the simple logic test:  Do you think you can remove your laptop hard drive as it exists today and install it into any laptop you want (any brand, any model, old or new) and expect it to boot, much less work?  The answer is no.

I use Ghost for two purposes:  one for hardware or software/visus protection.  I can restore last week's backup onto a blank hard drive in the event of a hard drive failure.  

Secondly my Ghost image backup contains all my data documents, files, pictures, email etc.  In the event my computer is destroyed, stolen, etc. I can buy a new computer, install application software from cd's, and then copy/restore my user-data, email etc. from my Ghost backup.

OMG, two replies, two contradictory answers!   ....I must admit, your response is in keeping with what some others have told me.

Would you elaborate as to the best way for me to preserve my vital programs and data in the event something happens to my notebook?   :-?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:31am
aaron, I don't think that acosby's and my responses were in complete conflict.  We both agree that Ghost is a time saver in the event of a hard drive failure.  And it will save you in the event you accidentally delete some or all folders (like medical/legal records).

For a traveler, I would recommend purchasing a external USB2 hard drive.  When you're home (or before leaving on a trip), make a Ghost image backup storing the image-file on your external usb2 hard drive.  You should be able to get multiple versions (generations) stored on the external hard drive.

Because laptop theft and/or accidents are common, you might want to tell Ghost to break your backup images into 4400 gb file chunk sizes, then burn those files onto dvds.  And take the dvd's with you (separately) in your luggage, away from the laptop.  Also take the emergency restore Ghost cd with you.  That way you can restore a folder or critical presentation onto a "standby" or alternate laptop in an emergency.

You might want to look at online backups as well.  I don't have the url references at hand but look up laptop online backup and travel considerations.  

You need more protection at your fingertips than just a Ghost backup to be really prepared and secure.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:39am

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 11:31am:
For a traveler, I would recommend purchasing a external USB2 hard drive.  When you're home (or before leaving on a trip), make a Ghost image backup storing the image-file on your external usb2 hard drive.  You should be able to get multiple versions (generations) stored on the external hard drive.

Because laptop theft and/or accidents are common, you might want to tell Ghost to break your backup images into 4400 gb file chunk sizes, then burn those files onto dvds.  And take the dvd's with you (separately) in your luggage, away from the laptop.  Also take the emergency restore Ghost cd with you.  That way you can restore a folder or critical presentation onto a "standby" or alternate laptop in an emergency.

Yes, I already own a USB2 External Hard Drive, but not the Backup Software.   Which version of Ghost (or the like) would you say is best for my needs?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by acosby on Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:30pm
Ghost4Me is right.  I misinterpreted the question.  I didn't think you wanted to migrate your system.  I took you to mean save your system and restore from backup.  That is possible.  If you're running from XP to Vista, you'll have some issues with it though.  I'd buy Ghost 12, it is --to my knowledge-- the only Vista compatible Ghost available.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:52pm

acosby wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:30pm:
Ghost4Me is right.  I misinterpreted the question.  I didn't think you wanted to migrate your system.  I took you to mean save your system and restore from backup.  That is possible.  If you're running from XP to Vista, you'll have some issues with it though.  I'd buy Ghost 12, it is --to my knowledge-- the only Vista compatible Ghost available.

I really don't care about Vista.  If I could restore my current WinXP onto a new notebook (with all of my data, docs, etc.) that would be great.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Pleonasm on Jun 20th, 2007 at 1:07pm
Aaron, you may wish to review these threads:

    Online backup
    Ghost image and STOLEN computer (related to theme of migrating from one PC to another)

Additionally, note that Backup Exec System Recovery 7.0 (i.e., the ‘corporate’ version of Norton Ghost 12) has a hardware independent backup/restore capability, known as “Restore Anyware" technology.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 1:10pm

Pleonasm wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 1:07pm:
Aaron, you may wish to review these threads:

    Online backup
    Ghost image and STOLEN computer (related to theme of migrating from one PC to another)

Additionally, note that Backup Exec System Recovery 7.0 (i.e., the ‘corporate’ version of Norton Ghost 12) has a hardware independent backup/restore capability, known as “Restore Anyware" technology.

Thank you!!!

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:09pm
Aaron, the links provided by Pleonasm are good and show a lot of the other considerations.  The least of which is simply that the OEM license for your laptop probably does not allow you to run their XP license on another computer.  For example, if you purchase a Dell desktop, and your motherboard dies, you can't put in a brand-x motherboard and continue on.  As a minimum you would have to purchase a retail version of Windows XP, and perform a repair-install.

Consider how often you might drop or get your laptop stolen--if it's once every 2 or 3 years, you would likely want a different model anyway.

So as many others have pointed out in other links, Ghost is not a migration tool.  Use it as insurance against mechanical (or virus) failure on your hard drive, and for data/folder backups.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:11pm

acosby wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:30pm:
If you're running from XP to Vista, you'll have some issues with it though.  I'd buy Ghost 12, it is --to my knowledge-- the only Vista compatible Ghost available.

Norton Ghost Save & Restore 2.0 is Vista compatible.  From what I have read (haven't used it myself), S&R 2.0 is the version that is closest in features to Ghost 10.

Symantec has kind of confused the issue by releasing two consumer products (Ghost 12 & S&R 2.0) that are almost virtually identical for all practical purposes.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:15pm

Pleonasm wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 1:07pm:
Additionally, note that Backup Exec System Recovery 7.0 (i.e., the ‘corporate’ version of Norton Ghost 12) has a hardware independent backup/restore capability, known as “Restore Anyware" technology.

My understanding of the "restore anywhere" products is that they are designed for corporate environments, where the pc licensing is not an issue.  Also the method used is that a "golden" version is created that has drivers for ALL possible pc's in the corporate environment, so that you can restore a failure onto one of those pre-defined pc's.  If the company purchases a new brand/model, then the IT staff must add definitions for that brand/model.

I don't think this is practical for a consumer.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:39pm
Ghost4me,

Thanks a lot for all of your attention to my specific backup needs - it's most appreciated.   ;)

Since you (and others here) believe I should consider another type of backup solution to ensure recovery of my personal data, docs, presentatons, etc. to another notebook, can you recommend some here (or pm me)?

aaron

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:58pm
Ghost does a great job of data recovery in addition to image backup/recovery.  One nice thing about an image backup is that it creates a backup of ALL of your folders, so you can't accidently forget to backup, for example, your quickbooks file which isn't stored in your My Documents folder.

Now that you've differenciated between recovery your critical DATA instead of concentrating on migrating to a new laptop with same hard drive, there are many choices.  I'll let others pipe in with their favorite backup methods.

In case you need more reading about online backups:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=online+backup

I also remember reading several articles over the last few years with a title such as "road warrior's laptop pc tool kits" or something similar.  A lot of considerations (not just backup) about traveling on the road with a laptop.  Happy reading!

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 3:15pm

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:58pm:
Ghost does a great job of data recovery in addition to image backup/recovery.  One nice thing about an image backup is that it creates a backup of ALL of your folders, so you can't accidently forget to backup, for example, your quickbooks file which isn't stored in your My Documents folder.

Right, but how do that if I can't do a restroe with Ghost on another notebook?   --  Seems like a 'catch 22' ::)

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 3:27pm

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 3:15pm:

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:58pm:
Ghost does a great job of data recovery in addition to image backup/recovery.  One nice thing about an image backup is that it creates a backup of ALL of your folders, so you can't accidently forget to backup, for example, your quickbooks file which isn't stored in your My Documents folder.

Right, but how do that if I can't do a restroe with Ghost on another notebook?   --  Seems like a 'catch 22' ::)


Don't confuse folder/file backup and restore with hard-drive-image restore.  With your Ghost backup stored on external usb2 drive, you would do it either of these ways:
1. Install Ghost on your new/replacement laptop.  Then restore data folders/files from your backup.
2. Boot your new laptop from the Ghost emergency recovery cd.  This cd is a pre-xp boot cd, much like the Windows XP install cd.  Then restore data folders/files from your bakcup.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 4:05pm

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 3:27pm:

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 3:15pm:

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 2:58pm:
Ghost does a great job of data recovery in addition to image backup/recovery.  One nice thing about an image backup is that it creates a backup of ALL of your folders, so you can't accidently forget to backup, for example, your quickbooks file which isn't stored in your My Documents folder.

Right, but how do that if I can't do a restroe with Ghost on another notebook?   --  Seems like a 'catch 22' ::)


Don't confuse folder/file backup and restore with hard-drive-image restore.  With your Ghost backup stored on external usb2 drive, you would do it either of these ways:
1. Install Ghost on your new/replacement laptop.  Then restore data folders/files from your backup.
2. Boot your new laptop from the Ghost emergency recovery cd.  This cd is a pre-xp boot cd, much like the Windows XP install cd.  Then restore data folders/files from your bakcup.

I didn't realize that -- would I be able to do that on a new notebook with any verson of Ghost or Save & Restore?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 4:19pm

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 4:05pm:
I didn't realize that -- would I be able to do that on a new notebook with any verson of Ghost or Save & Restore?


1. Scenario 1 (after installing Ghost on new laptop):  yes

2. Scenario 2 (booting from Ghost Recovery CD):  probably, depending upon Ghost version.  For example, if you were using Ghost 9, the Ghost 9 Recovery CD does NOT contain drivers for SATA hard drives, so you probably would not be able to boot from the Ghost 9 Recovery CD, and restore folders onto a SATA laptop internal drive.

For maximum reliability (applies to all software) use the latest version, either Ghost 12 or Ghost Save & Restore 2.0.  The Recovery CD's that come with those versions has the most drivers.

(This just makes sense.  An analogy is that the Windows XP SP2 install CD contains more and newer and more up-to-date drivers than the original Windows XP install CD.)

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 5:25pm

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 4:19pm:

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 4:05pm:
I didn't realize that -- would I be able to do that on a new notebook with any verson of Ghost or Save & Restore?


1. Scenario 1 (after installing Ghost on new laptop):  yes

2. Scenario 2 (booting from Ghost Recovery CD):  probably, depending upon Ghost version.  For example, if you were using Ghost 9, the Ghost 9 Recovery CD does NOT contain drivers for SATA hard drives, so you probably would not be able to boot from the Ghost 9 Recovery CD, and restore folders onto a SATA laptop internal drive.

For maximum reliability (applies to all software) use the latest version, either Ghost 12 or Ghost Save & Restore 2.0.  The Recovery CD's that come with those versions has the most drivers.

(This just makes sense.  An analogy is that the Windows XP SP2 install CD contains more and newer and more up-to-date drivers than the original Windows XP install CD.)

Gotcha - but from what I read somewhere, Ghost 12 doesn't have a stand-alone recovery CD?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 6:23pm

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 5:25pm:
Gotcha - but from what I read somewhere, Ghost 12 doesn't have a stand-alone recovery CD?


You probably read that the free trail version from the Symantec website doesn't contain the stand-alone recovery CD.

The retail version at stores contains a combination install CD and emergency recovery cd.  On my Ghost 12 CD, it states on the front "This CD may be used as an emergency boot disk.  Retrieve files, scan for viruses, check fo errors, and restore backup images with Symantec Recovery Disk.  512 MB RAM required.  Please see manual for instructions."

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 6:52pm

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 6:23pm:

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 5:25pm:
Gotcha - but from what I read somewhere, Ghost 12 doesn't have a stand-alone recovery CD?


You probably read that the free trail version from the Symantec website doesn't contain the stand-alone recovery CD.

The retail version at stores contains a combination install CD and emergency recovery cd.  On my Ghost 12 CD, it states on the front "This CD may be used as an emergency boot disk.  Retrieve files, scan for viruses, check fo errors, and restore backup images with Symantec Recovery Disk.  512 MB RAM required.  Please see manual for instructions."

That's probably what I read.   Btw, does Ghost 12 require .NET Framework?

Thanks!

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 7:20pm

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 6:52pm:
That's probably what I read.   Btw, does Ghost 12 require .NET Framework?  Thanks!


Yes, Ghost 9, 10, and 12 all require .NET Framework.  If it is not already installed on your pc, then Ghost installs .NET Framework automatically during the Ghost install.  (You should keep all XP updates current in my opinion.)

Don't forget though, as a laptop road warrior, backup is just one (although important) element when traveling.  Password protecting your laptop, backups, and other needed items are also important.  You don't want someone making copies of all your business information stored on your laptop or backup dvd's, etc.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by aaron on Jun 20th, 2007 at 7:48pm

John. wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 7:20pm:

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 6:52pm:
That's probably what I read.   Btw, does Ghost 12 require .NET Framework?  Thanks!


Yes, Ghost 9, 10, and 12 all require .NET Framework.  If it is not already installed on your pc, then Ghost installs .NET Framework automatically during the Ghost install.  (You should keep all XP updates current in my opinion.)

Don't forget though, as a laptop road warrior, backup is just one (although important) element when traveling.  Password protecting your laptop, backups, and other needed items are also important.  You don't want someone making copies of all your business information stored on your laptop or backup dvd's, etc.

Right - my BIOS is password protected (heaven help me if I forget my pw because I'm told there is no way to unlock the notebook without it)!

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 20th, 2007 at 7:59pm

aaron wrote on Jun 20th, 2007 at 7:48pm:
Right - my BIOS is password protected (heaven help me if I forget my pw because I'm told there is no way to unlock the notebook without it)!

What happens if the thief removes your laptop hard drive (it takes only a small screwdriver) and connects it to his computer?

I'm not picking on you.  Protecting with bios is a good first start.  But depending upon how sensitive your information is, there are many more steps to consider (especially if you are paranoid...like me!)   :)

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 21st, 2007 at 8:14am
aaron, you could consider encryption or at least password protection on any critical files.  I've read several articles about the need for password protecting those small usb2 thumbdrives that are easily and frequently lost.

Pleonasm is the encryption and security expert on this forum.  Use the search to find some of his comments which could help you, or start a new thread topic re encryption and password protection of data, which could draw more responses from others.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Pleonasm on Jun 21st, 2007 at 11:30am
Concerning the use of the “Restore Anyware" technology in Backup Exec System Recovery 7.0 (i.e., the ‘corporate’ version of Norton Ghost 12), I do not believe it to be the case that it is “designed for corporate environments, where ... the method used is that a ‘golden’ version is created that has drivers for ALL possible pc's in the corporate environment” (Reply #13).

The procedure for using the “Restore Anyware" option appears to be quite similar to that of a normal restore - see page 150+ in Symantec Backup Exec System Recovery User's Guide.

It would be helpful, though, to hear from someone in the forum community who has actually used the “Restore Anyware" feature.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 21st, 2007 at 11:41am

Pleonasm wrote on Jun 21st, 2007 at 11:30am:
The procedure for using the “Restore Anyware" option appears to be quite similar to that of a normal restore - see page 150+


See these "extra" steps required:


Quote:
Keep in mind the following when using Restore Anyware:
■ Performing Restore Anyware to hardware that is significantly different might
require you to:

Recovering a computer

Recovering to a computer that has different hardware
■ Add mass storage device drivers.
■ Install hotfixes for the Windows operating system that you restore.
■ Reactivate your Windows operating system when the system restarts.
■ Provide your license key when the system restarts.
■ Provide a local user name and password for the recovery point when the
system restarts.


Also more issues:


Quote:
■ When you restore a recovery point by using Restore Anyware, you might be
prompted for the local administrator name and password. You should have
this information ready before you perform the restore. Technical Support
cannot restore a lost password.
■ You cannot use Restore Anyware to restore a single recovery point to multiple
computers. The product does not generate a unique SID for every computer.
■ If you use Restore Anyware with a computer that uses a static IP address, you
must manually reconfigure the computer once the restore is complete.
■ Backup Exec System Recovery supports one NIC on a system. If you have a
dual NIC system, you might need to manually configure the additional NICs
to perform a restore through Restore Anyware.


Doesn't sound like a very consumer plug-n-play restore to me.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by acosby on Jun 21st, 2007 at 1:04pm

Quote:
aaron, you could consider encryption or at least password protection on any critical files.  I've read several articles about the need for password protecting those small usb2 thumbdrives that are easily and frequently lost.

Dead on.  The rest of these shenanigans are too expensive/time consuming.  Good encryption on important files would be your first step.  Secondarily, the bioslock is a good idea.  Following that, you enter the realm of tinfoil hats and nervous breakdowns.
If you're that worried about the files on your notebook, it might be worth looking into a verification program for it.  (Though, again, Ghost is right, someone can just remove the HDD)  Look into thumbprint verification.  It's pretty easy to do (which leads me to believe it's pretty easy to crack).
Just remember, as down the security road you go, anything you can lock can be broken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encryption#Key_size_and_vulnerability
Here's some ideas on what and how to encrypt your disk and/or files.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File/folder_encryption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_encryption_software

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 21st, 2007 at 9:42pm
After reviewing the messages on this thread and their numerous links I did not find that a "for sure" answer was actually demonstrated regarding the use of Ghost, even regarding the use of the corporate ghost version, although I can't believe that it wouldn't work as it is a solution which has been provided for Norton's most litigious clientele.  The extended debate around the issue might appeal to the technically inclined, but my only interest is in a "for sure" answer, too.

The "for sure" solution, as I see it, lies in using Acronis True Image 9.1 Workstation ($79.99/licensee) along with 9.1 Universal restore ($29.99), an add-on application.  A historical archive thread linked on this forum thread describes a 100% successful set of restore tests into various different hardware combinations using them.  Further, I have seen similar confirmation of this elsewhere.

This solution was primarily designed as a corporate solution for networked users, which its screen images etc. reflect.  Acronis True Image 10 Home Edition ($39.95) has many of the same features as 9.1 Workstation, with additional ones which appeal to me for my Home office use.  While it does not seem to work directly with Universal Restore, the script of an interview with their Senior Director of Strategic Marketing describes that in the event of a hardware catastrophe, one could purchase 9.1 Workstation and Universal restore and use the drive image from Home Edition 10 with them in the new hardware environment to restore one's original working environment with reliable ease and certainty.  I expect a reply from their techs to further confirm this along with an explanation as to how exactly it would work (I did not run into mention of it in their user guides).  In any event, I have encouraged Acronis to include direct restore capability from Home Edition 10 together with Universal Restore in their next build, for whatever that is worth.

Presumably, this is the "for sure" solution that you would be looking for, too.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Brian on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 12:47am
Kurt N.,

I encourage you to ask those questions in the Acronis TI forum. The members seem less keen on Universal Restore than they were initially.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=65

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 3:38am
Brian,

I wonder....why the change of heart?

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Brian on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 3:49am
Kurt N.,

No change of heart with me. I haven't done any more testing.

I guess there were a few restore failures in the TI forum. Acronis seemed to backoff in its enthusiasm and altered its definition of "different hardware" to a different motherboard. That's my recollection. Worth investigating anyway.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 4:18am
Brian,

A bit of the text of a March 17/07 interview with the erstwhile Senior Director of Strategic Marketing at Acronis, originally published on Let's Talk Computers:


Stephen: Oh, absolutely. If you have data on your machines at a corporation that in some cases you're required to keep seven years and in some cases you're required to keep it indefinitely, (depending on the type of the data that it is). So, you need to make sure that the data that's on those machines can be moved to different hardware.

Remember, hardware is hardware. It has a life expectancy; it has a period of time that you can expect it to last — hard drives that last several years, but sometimes they go out on you in several weeks. I had a laptop that had to be replaced last year. It was about two years old. That's just the way the world works with technology.

Alan: Well, hardware is hardware. It is not a case of if it's going to fail; it's a case of when it will fail.

Stephen: And it will fail! Just remember Murphy's Law. It will fail at the worst possible time.

Alan: And the more moving parts that you have in it or the more heat that you generate in the box, the more likelihood that it will fail. And you really don't have any idea when it's going to fail.

Stephen: That's absolutely true.

Alan: When you're making your backup, you can use Acronis True Image 9, Acronis True Image 10, you can use your Home Edition, but when you want to use Acronis Universal Restore, you must have the Workstation Edition, shouldn't you?

Stephen: If you're running XP or Vista, for that matter, you will need to run Acronis True Image Workstation, with the optional Acronis Universal Restore module. If you're on a server, then you'll need either a Server edition for a standalone server or Enterprise Server if you have multiple machines.

Alan: If you have a backup with Acronis True Image Home edition, you don't have to do anything to that backup. All I have to do is upgrade to the Workstation edition or the Server edition — put the Acronis Universal Restore onto it and I'm in good shape?

Stephen: That's right.


The full interview text is at http://www.acronis.com/enterprise/pr/ltc_interviews/March_17_2007/


From this it seems that at least one person at Acronis is still talking "different hardware" as something more than a "different motherboard".  And there is no question, speaking from my own unfortunate experiences, that it's not a matter of "if" but only a matter of "when" when it comes to hardware failure :'(.

So, you're right, it probably is worth investigating anyway.

Thanks :)

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Brian on Jun 22nd, 2007 at 4:41am
Kurt N.,

Interesting interview. Let us know what you discover. I hope it is true.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 23rd, 2007 at 9:40pm
The following is a cut and paste from an E-mail I received back from Acronis Tech Support within 24 hours of my escalated pre-sales (free) tech support request:


We are glad to inform you, that Stephen Lawton is right. The image archive
created by any version of Acronis True Image may be restored by any other
version of Acronis True Image, because of the unified true image backup (*.tib)
file format.

Although, please be aware, that you could not restore your image archive to the
new computer configuration using Acronis True Image 10.0 Home, but you could use
image archive created by Acronis True Image 10.0 Home to restore to the new
hardware using Acronis True Image Workstation with Universal Restore.

There is no special instructions on how to restore image archive (created with
the Home version) using Workstation version, because the archive file itself is
the same. It is a feature of Acronis Universal Restore to add necessary drivers
and change SID records during restoration process.

Thank you for taking time to contact us and for your question.


I wasn't thrilled that three different Pre-sales (free) chat support techs had previously told me that the program did not have this capability in spite of the existence of a transcript of an interview (see link provided in earlier post) of Steven Lawton, Senior Director of Strategic Marketing for Acronis, which  indicated that it did in fact have the capability.  Even so, between this tech's E-mail, along with a review of the text of chats that I ran into among the many links available at the following link...


http://www.acronis.com/enterprise/company/inpress/


...I now feel comfortable that this program provides the kind of restore ability in the event of any number of hardware catastrophes which I (and from the text of his posts, Aaron) was looking for.  In addition, the boot disc ships in the boxed version and a boot disc can be made from the downloaded version.

So far I have not been able to distinguish that any version of Ghost, other than perhaps a corporate version, would have this "new hardware" capability, ie: the "for sure" solution Aaron was looking for.  As far as tech support is concerned, despite the erroneous chats (on this particular point only, as far as I could distinguish), the level of easily available tech support at Acronis was outstanding compared to the longstanding litany of tech support horror stories I have accumulated through my not cheap and ridiculously time intensive personal experiences with Norton's lower level techs.  If it wasn't for you guys, I'm convinced that that company would have become completely lost years ago.  I have taken the time to report back on this because I believe that healthy competition in free markets is priceless for consumers in the long run, and because you guys do such a great job.  Having said that, frankly, at this stage of the game, if I have a good alternative to a Norton product, I will run with it.

Hopefully Aaron will return to these posts so he can factor them into his decisions.

The icing on the "ease of use" cake for me would be if in the next build of their Home Edition 10.?, Acronis would provide for direct driving of the Universal Restore add-on program from within the Home Edition (in which case I would fork out the $29.95 for Universal Restore).  We shall see.....meanwhile, it looks as if my current purchase decision is made. ;D


Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by tallin on Jun 23rd, 2007 at 10:21pm
Thanks for that detailed report on Acronis Technical Support....all good.  As I am currently weighing out the Ghost 12 verses Acronis decision to purchase for my new Laptop, your post has made me take a good hard look at the latest Acronis software in anticipation of installing on said Laptop.

I must say I would be more than lost with my Ghost 10 if I had not found Rad/Brain/Ghost4me.  Only today I answered in the following thread re Symantec's poor support and really would not buy another Norton's product if I could help it.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1182646000

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 8:54am

Kurt N. wrote on Jun 23rd, 2007 at 9:40pm:
...So far I have not been able to distinguish that any version of Ghost, other than perhaps a corporate version, would have this "new hardware" capability, ie: the "for sure" solution Aaron was looking for.  

In all fairness, the Acronis True Image Workstation 9.1 is also a "corporate version".

Quote:
1.1 Acronis® True Image Workstation – a complete solution for corporate users...

http://us2.download.acronis.com/pdf/TrueImageCorporateWorkstation9.1_ug.en.pdf
It requires a Management Console as well as an Agent and Workstation software.

This appears to be very similar to the Symantec Ghost Solution Suite 2.0 product.
http://www.symantec.com/smb/products/features.jsp?pcid=cli_mgmt&pvid=ghost


Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 9:52am
As others have mentioned in this and other threads, you should read up on the software product called Universal Imaging Utility.
http://www.uiu4you.com/index.html

I have not used it myself, but from what I have read, it basically is doing the sysprep, sid, and driver updating for you.  (The main downside appears to be a 50 seat minimum purchase.  Ouch!)  

It's appears similar to what happens when you insert a Windows XP install CD--the XP install searches for and installs new hardware drivers for your pc.  This is basically the same effect as "Windows Repair Install" procedure which can also sometimes be used successfully after restoring a Ghost backup to different hardware.

Bottom line:  Let us all know if you find a "for sure" solution for anything!  We all search for ways to improve the odds of success.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 24th, 2007 at 12:42pm
Ghost4me,

It may somehow have gotten lost in all the text :-?, but the whole point of all my inquiry with Acronis was TO DETERMINE WHETHER THEIR RELATIVELY USER FRIENDLY AND CHEAP[/b]($39.99) TRUE IMAGE 10 HOME EDITION could be used to restore a drive image (if necessary) to wholly new hardware by any variety of manufacturers, in response to Aaron's original question.  The result of this query, that I so carefully detailed above, was YES!!!!!

If I, as a Home Office User, am not interested in using Acronis's lauded corporation oriented Acronis Workstation 9.1 (at $79.99/license) on a day to day basis, you can be sure that, as a practically-minded person, I do not need to spend one second further reading about a corporate version of Ghost that has a 50 seat minimum purchase, offered at a, no doubt, relatively ridiculous cost!!! ::)

If it is not already clear, I AM NOT MARRIED EITHER TO NORTON OR ACRONIS, and I am not in love with Ghost.  I am just an ordinary consumer.

As I see it, the main value to non-moderators of Radified's web threads has become to provide much needed additional support to users of Symantec's products while maintaining at least some level of objectivity about other products.  Brian so clearly contributed these qualities vis a vis my inquiry on this thread.  Any other approach can only, in the end, be counterproductive in terms of the survival of Norton's market position, whose parent company seems to be digging such a deep hole for themselves to climb out of, at the expense of their clientele.



Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by RAD_2 on Jun 24th, 2007 at 1:14pm
I am an owner of ATI 10, but have been too afraid to install and use it after seeing the numerous problems discussed at the ATI forum.  Don't assume that a rosy-sounding email from Acronis Support means it will actually work.  In fact, one of the most recurring complaints at the ATI forum is that support never returns the inquiries for customers who have problems.  
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=175684

I am monitoring numerous forums on these topics for my own interests.  I am "RAD" at the ATI forum, but I have no connection to the Radified forums....that was just a coincidence.  I didn't even know about the radified community when registering.  :D

[edit]Rad edit. Well I am 'Rad' here. Nice to meet you, Mr. Rad[/edit]

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 2:45pm

Kurt N. wrote on Jun 24th, 2007 at 12:42pm:
If I, as a Home Office User, am not interested in using Acronis's lauded corporation oriented Acronis Workstation 9.1 (at $79.99/license) on a day to day basis, you can be sure that, as a practically-minded person, I do not need to spend one second further reading about a corporate version of Ghost that has a 50 seat minimum purchase, offered at a, no doubt, relatively ridiculous cost!!!

If it is not already clear, I AM NOT MARRIED EITHER TO NORTON OR ACRONIS, and I am not in love with Ghost.  I am just an ordinary consumer.

Sorry if my previous post wasn't clear:  The 50 seat minimum is for the Universal Imaging Utility, which is NOT a Ghost product, but a separate vendor one.  The Ghost Solution Suite 2.0 has a 5 seat minimum ($39.20 each).

Although I didn't mention it, I have both used both Ghost AND True Image products.  There are quirks on both of them.  But as my handle says "Ghost 4 me".  I have never had a Ghost failure due to corrupted-image, which is the main issue that scares me away from True Image.  Read the TI forums yourself and search for the word "corrupt".

I could go on and on about Symantec user/technical support (which is an oxymoron) so don't take me for a Symantec shill.  It's just that their Ghost product(s) have always worked for me and my customers.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 24th, 2007 at 2:54pm
RAD_2,

I understand that forum complaints re tech support can have many base causes, so unless there are a litany of recent consumer descriptions of solid and logical paths of fault described which point directly at the source of problem as being current and ongoing tech support initiated problems (not just cases of general grousing among grousers), then I don't let myself get involved in it.  

For example, I myself almost joined the ranks of the exact Acronis forum complainers you described (re not hearing back from their tech support), only to discover 26 hours later that I had misunderstood how Acronis's mail program works and so my original mail had never transmitted.  By chance I tried again, and by chance I succeeded in my second attempt only to realize that my first request never went through (receiving a transmission confirmation E-mail re my second "send" but not after my first).  So maybe the problem is that Acronis has is a non-user friendly tech support E-mail request user interface...who knows?  I suppose if one really wanted to be persnickety, one could suggest that they have it designed that way on purpose to frustrate tech support requests, but in this case I would rather mention to them that it would be better if it was more user friendly, instead.  And, at least I have the ability to contact someone at Acronis support directly to point that out (via chat or 24 hour turn-around E-mail, with no upfront charges), without having to pay $70USD (like I did at Symantec).

Nor did I assume that a rosy sounding E-mail from Acronis support is an indication that it (the program feature) would actually work.  

That is why, in addition to reading the texts of more than 6 Lets Talk Computers radio interviews of Acronis execs re the products including descriptions of the way they are designed (and so how they would do what the E-mail described), I also reviewed a half-hour, familiar and local to me, product independent TV tech show which was interviewing an Acronis Exec as they live-trialed the product (the link for which just happened to be on the Acronis site) and why I also E-mailed the Senior Director of Strategic Marketing there re not only that issue but also to let him know that his own message during interviews confirming the point (described and linked in posts above) seems to have been lost on all of the members of his pre-sales tech support staff that I have encountered via live-chat.  I now await to hear from him.

So don't worry...I'm not jumping easily to any quick conclusions here....in fact, if anything, it is just the opposite.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 24th, 2007 at 2:56pm
Ghost-4-me,

Your points are clarified and taken.  However $200 USD is more than I want to pay for the feature in any event... 8-)

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 3:07pm

Kurt N. wrote on Jun 24th, 2007 at 2:56pm:
Your points are clarified and taken.  However $200 USD is more than I want to pay for the feature in any event...

I agree about the $200 ($40/seat x 5).

I've seen many posts here (and elsewhere) where someone wants to take his cloned backup and restore it to any computer out there and it will work.  I haven't found that "magic bullet" yet.  Only in DOS days could you take your hard drive out and put it in another computer and expect it to work.  It didn't work very well trying that with Windows 3.1, 95, 98, etc and definitely didn't work with Windows 2000 Pro.

Image backup programs such as Ghost (and others) were and are a great backup scheme, allowing one to easily recovery from a hard drive mechanical or electrical failure (or software disaster), without re-installing your operating system.  That is the beauty of the product and its primary benefit, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone can expect to take a functioning hard drive out of one pc (e.g. Dell) and insert it in any other pc (brand x) and expect it to work.

Besides the software issues, there are the licensing issues because unfortunately Dell (and others) prohibit you from even replacing your failed motherboard on your Dell pc with a different one.  Your XP license is tied to that motherboard, period.  Shocking but true.


Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 24th, 2007 at 3:55pm
Ghost-4-me,

There are many other scenarios though, the Katrina example being only one.  Our federal tax department's entire computer system outage for a week just before the income tax deadline, at huge public expense, being another.  There are many situations where easy ability to restore software to new hardware in the event of hardware failure and/or replacement would be extraordinarily useful.

If the feature is that useful in the corporate environment, it's bound to be useful in the homeoffice environment for more than just me.  Market pressure by personal users needs to be applied on software developers.  It seems that Acronis has taken leadership on the issue and it may be that the need has actually been met by Acronis, in which case I'll use their product and I'll sort out the validity of whispers of "corruption", a term I heard carelessly and incorrectly bandied about no less than 100 times in the past month by uncooperative Semantec techs.  If Symantec feels that their relative shortcoming(s) will have a significant impact on their market share then they will feel the need to step up to the plate, too.  And personal use consumers will all be better off.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 4:21pm

Quote:
There are many situations where easy ability to restore software to new hardware in the event of hardware failure and/or replacement would be extraordinarily useful.
 
Yes, I completely agree.  Don't misunderstand me.  I would love to be able to take my hard drive out of my pc and put it into another pc and have it work.  That's the first step, and then backup/imaging will follow.  

I just haven't seen that XP or Vista can do that yet.  Maybe Microsoft will come up with a way to make their operating systems portable.  I hope so.  That's the issue.

P.S. I just searched the Acronis forum for the word "corrupt" and got 40 pages of hits.  At 29 listings/page, that would be about 1136 posts on the issue.  By actual users.

I'm not making any judgements on how many of those posts are valid, just pointing out the popularity of the topic.  Usually the corruption problem arises from memory issues.  I personally think it is somehow related to the shadowing-method that Acronis uses in their backup process.  Memory is used to hold pending disk-writes, so the backup integrity is very memory intensive and any memory error or aberration can cause corruption.  Technically you can call all of those "user errors", yet the problem exists.

Symantec uses a different method which doesn't seem to be sensitive to memory timing or loading like Acronis.  With Ghost, if you have a verified backup, it really is verified.  From what I read (and I follow the Acronis forum regularly) you can't say that about True Image.


Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Ghost4me on Jun 24th, 2007 at 5:08pm
Kurk N., Thanks for your ongoing contributions and comments.  Actually I think we are both after the same thing:  portability of hard drives to different systems.

I haven't found the or any perfect solution yet.  I hope you will continue contributing here and please keep (or start a thread) everyone informed of your experiences and observations on what you finally settle on.  I can easily "jump ship" and try a newer better mousetrap!

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Userisme on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:31am
I had no idea all this copying and cloning was so complicated!  I'm running WinXP on a SATA IDE as my C drive.  I have bought another drive exactly the same and I want to clone my C drive to the new drive so that if my C drive ever dies I can just replace it with the clone.   Will Ghost 12 allow me to do this?

I tried a software package called AIS which appeared to copy the C drive to the new drive but when I tried to boot from it I was told I had to copy the boot sector - but of course it didn't tell me what it was called and where to find it!

So can I use Ghost 12 to clone my C drive to the same model and size drive and if the need arises, boot from the new drive?

Thanks in advance,

Userisme

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by El_Pescador on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:03pm

wrote on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:31am:
"... I'm running WinXP on a SATA IDE as my C drive..."

Is a SATA IDE the same thing as a SATA HDD?

EP :'(

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Brian on Jun 29th, 2007 at 12:59am
Kurt N.,

Symantec Backup Exec System Recovery has a Restore Anyware component. I haven't tested it. The software is $10 to $20 more than Ghost 12.

http://www.symantec.com/smb/products/overview.jsp?pcid=bu_rec&pvid=lsrdt30





Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Brian on Jun 29th, 2007 at 1:05am

wrote on Jun 25th, 2007 at 7:31am:
 I'm running WinXP on a SATA IDE as my C drive.  I have bought another drive exactly the same and I want to clone my C drive to the new drive so that if my C drive ever dies I can just replace it with the clone.   Will Ghost 12 allow me to do this?

Userisme,

I'm not sure what you mean by SATA IDE either. Whether it's SATA or IDE, what you suggest is possible and it's easy. But I wouldn't recommend that you do it.

Title: Re: Can Ghost do this (for sure)?
Post by Kurt N. on Jun 29th, 2007 at 3:55pm
Brian,

Thanks for finding this one.  I'll take a look at it....

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