My current system has 2 IDE Hard Disks (250 GB Hitachi and 160 GB Seagate, with the 250 GB HD's C: partition being the present boot partition) on a P4 3.2 GHz CPU (Intel 640) and ECS P4M800PRO-M 1.0a Mainboard (VIA Chipset). OS is Windows XP Professional SP2.

Want to add another 500 GB Hard Disk (SATA) in addition to the 2 above. And use this new SATA 500 GB disk as boot partition (i.e. the C: partition within the 500 GB drive after formatting it).

Question is:
Will I be able to make a partition-to-partition (C:/ part from current 250 GB Hitachi IDE Boot Drive to C:/ of the new 500 GB SATA HD) copy using Norton Ghost 2003? And subsequently use the new SATA drive as the boot drive.
Also, can I make partition image backups using NG 2003 from IDE --> SATA & SATA --> IDE Hard Drives?

Thanks,

Edit:
After installing the (new) 500 GB WD SATA HD (as outlined in later parts of this thread), the boot sector now resides on the new 500 GB SATA drive.

zmdmw52


Quote:

Question is: Will I be able to make a partition-to-partition (C: drive from current boot IDE Boot Disk to C: of the new 500 GB SATA) copy using Norton Ghost 2003? And subsequently use the new SATA drive as the boot drive. Also, can I make partition image backups using NG 2003 from IDE --> SATA & SATA --> IDE.

That's hard to answer unless someone has the exact same system as yours and has done the same procedures!

As long as the BIOS supports both the IDE and SATA controllers in DOS so they can talk to each other compatibly--there should be no problems.  There may be settings you have to adjust!

Does your BIOS allow you to select the various HDD's as the boot drive--that is probably the main setting change you need to do!

Your SATA HDD will have to be pre-partitioned (not necessary to format!) in order to do *partition-to-partition*--basically the partition has to already exist when using that Ghost procedure!

Report back with how things go--or if you run into any problems!

Thanks for the reply.

I believe that my BIOS does allow for choosing the boot drive from SATA & IDE & I think it does have both IDE & SATA controllers.

I have yet to install a SATA drive in this system (as until now was managing with the 2 (250 & 160 GB) IDE HDs) .
Plan on installing & formatting the SATA drive this coming week & then trying to do an IDE --> SATA partition transfer. If that doesn't work & NG 2003 doesn't recognize the SATA drive in DOS, then I'll use the SATA as an external backup solution via an external 3.5" enclosure.

Will keep you posted on if it works out.

Most modern motherboards will see any drive connected to the system if the drive is active.
For instance, if I put a bootable SD Flash Memory Card in my USB card reader, the mobo will see it and give me the option of booting from that card.  Likewise my Bootable Flash Drive or external HD.  Here's my own boot menu, with my SD card inserted in its slot.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/DrWho1943/BootScreenF11.jpg

I do have to press F11 during the early boot process to get this menu.  
Older mobo's are not so flexible.  

On this mobo, Ghost will write an image of the SATA drive to the IDE or Flash Drive.
Or, an image of any other drive to the SATA drive.  They all look the same to Ghost.

On some of the earliest SATA compatible mobo's the SATA drive was treated like a SCSI device.  Now the SATA drive is treated just like an IDE drive.

Cheers Mates!
Shadow  8-)

As to the question about using Partition to Partition......
I would NEVER do that!

I always FDISK * (partition) my HD's first, then format both partitions.  This verifies that the drive it good and can be written to with NO problems.  
*In FDISK, you must set part #1 ACTIVE or the drive will never boot from the first partition.

Then I make a "Partition to Image" from the old HD (C: ) to the second partition on the new disk.
Then I disconnect the old drive leaving only the new drive in the system.
Then I reboot with my Ghost boot disk and do a Restore from the Image file in part #2 on the new drive to part #1 (C: ).  Job done and I have a good Ghost image on the drive if I need it.

If your old drive was formatted NTFS, that format will follow the Image to the new partition. No harm, No foul.  I just prefer to use FAT-32....it's a control thing!

Cheers mates!
Shadow  8-)

Thanks for the this valuable advice. (and the screenshot: on my PC (ECS P4M800Pro-M ver 1A Mainboard, AMI BIOS) I have to use F8 key to display the BBS menu, something that I was not aware of, till now).
======================================================================================

TheShadow wrote on Oct 14^th, 2007 at 12:58pm:

As to the question about using Partition to Partition...... I would NEVER do that! ..... Then I make a "Partition to Image" from the old HD (C: ) to the second partition on the new disk. Then I disconnect the old drive leaving only the new drive in the system. Then I reboot with my Ghost boot disk and do a Restore from the Image file in part #2 on the new drive to part #1 (C: ).  Job done and I have a good Ghost image on the drive if I need it.

Earlier I made the exact same mistake of doing a direct partition (old C: partition to new C: transfer using NG 2003) & the new C: partition didn't become active, which has kept me flummoxed till today. (At that time I reinstalled the OS & programs on the new HDD, a time-consuming procedure).
I will try your procedure out with the new SATA Hard Disk.
For this, should I use the /S option when formatting the C: (Main/First partition of the new SATA Hard Disk?)



TheShadow wrote on Oct 14^th, 2007 at 12:58pm:

I always FDISK * (partition) my HD's first, then format both partitions.  This verifies that the drive it good and can be written to with NO problems.   *In FDISK, you must set part #1 ACTIVE or the drive will never boot from the first partition.

What would be the best tool to format a SATA Hard Disk in FAT32 (I too am using FAT32 mainly because the 2 older IDE HDs are also formatted FAT32)?
Previously I have used the Win ME version of FDISK (as that overrides the 137 GB limit). But as FDISK is very time-consuming in doing a format, am considering using either of:


- Smart Fdisk   OR
- Partition Magic 8

Have you had any experience with either of these or if they will work with a 500 GB SATA Hard Drive? Or whether there could be compatibility problems?
Or should I stick with the Win ME version of FDISK (time-consuming & hoping that it will work with the 500 GB SATA Hard Disk)?


Thanks,

zmdmw52


Quote:

- Partition Magic 8 Have you had any experience with either of these or if they will work with a 500 GB SATA Hard Drive? Or whether there could be compatibility problems? Or should I stick with the Win ME version of FDISK (time-consuming & hoping that it will work with the 500 GB SATA Hard Disk)?

I do not have SATA HDD's, but I have used PartitionMagic 8.xx routinely--if your SATA HDD is handled correctly by the BIOS--it will probably show up fine in PartitionMagic 8's DOS program for partitioning and formatting.


Quote:

Earlier I made the exact same mistake of doing a direct partition (old C: partition to new C: transfer using NG 2003) & the new C: partition didn't become active, which has kept me flummoxed

I have done direct cloning using NG 2003--just have to manually set that C:\ partition active, remove the old HDD, and switch the new cloned HDD into the same position as the old removed HDD occupied on the controller connector--before attempting to boot with the new HDD.

If you have PartitionMagic 8's DOS program, you probably could have simply booted to PartitionMagic and made that cloned HDD's C:\  partition *active*, and it would have booted fine!

Quote:

If you have PartitionMagic 8's DOS program, you probably could have simply booted to PartitionMagic and made that cloned HDD's C:\  partition *active*, and it would have booted fine!

I have never used PM 8 for partitioning & formating.
Till now, have only used a DOS Boot Disk with the (time-consuming) FDISK from Win ME (as mentioned in my previous post), because somebody dealing with PCs told me that FDISK has no/minimal compatibility problems; whereas if I used PQPM, there may (later) be compatibility issues in partitioning/formating the HDDs, if anything went wrong.

Will try out PM 8 via DOS this time.

PS:
Am presently using FAT32 & plan on continuing the same with the new disk.

Sorry, but I'm one of those old DOS fanatics.  I'll be using FDISK, probably to the day they drop me in a hole and cover me with dirt.

Yes, FDISK takes a while to complete and so does the DOS Format. But hey, what else do you have to do?  Read a technical manual or watch some TV while the job finishes.  That's what I do.  I'm never a slave to what's going on with the process.

The result is a 100% reliable HD.  
The very last thing you do with FDISK before you reboot, is to set the first partition as "Active", so your OS can boot from it.  Failing to do that one simple chore will cause you all sorts of grief when you first try to boot from that HD.  It's easy to forget that....but, DON'T! That little bug has bit me in the arse more times than I want to admit to. ;) ;D ;D ;D

Partition Magic 8 is great for repartitioning a HD or converting it from NTFS to FAT-32.  The program will also make a set of (2) floppy disks to allow you to use it from DOS.  Those two disks can also be put on a CD, with a program like "NERO", to make a great PM8 Boot CD.
Actually, I put them on a bootable flash drive first, then used that to make the CD.  ::)

Good Luck,
Shadow  8-)

TheShadow


Quote:

The result is a 100% reliable HD.

I don't have a problem with using *fdisk* for partitioning (well--actually, I do--but that's a different issue and a longer story!), but this issue of compatibility and reliability if using some other partitioning tool--is this just an *urban legend* from long, long ago--or, has it ever been an actual issue?!

Rad mentions this in his FDISK Guide :


Quote:

FDISK's #1 strength is compatibility.

zmdmw52 mentions it above:


Quote:

because somebody dealing with PCs told me that FDISK has no/minimal compatibility problems; whereas if I used PQPM, there may (later) be compatibility issues i partitioning/formating the HDDs, if anything went wrong.

I have been using PartitionMagic since v3.xx, around 1994 or so--I have heard that problems can arise if you use PartitionMagic's feature where you can store multiple partitioning steps in a batch file and then running them at once at a later point--but, that's a different issue!

I have never had a PartitionMagic partitioning compatibility issue--and honestly, I have not seen any postings regarding such an issue (admittedly--I have not gone looking being as I have never had a problem  ;) ).

But I ask the Radified Community--has anyone ever had a partition compatibility/reliability issue from a partition created with PartitionMagic?

Is this a real and actual problem--or a myth?--I've seen the implied statements--but never any evidence to support the concerns raised!

Rejoinder:

Installed the new SATA Hard Disk on the ECS P4M800Pro-M (ver. 1A) Mainboard yesterday.
[Previously there were 2 IDE HDs: 250 GB Hitachi & 160 GB Seagate), with the 250 GB having the active boot (C:/) partition]

I partitioned and formatted (FAT32) the WD SATA HD using WD's own Data Lifeguard Tools
[latest version for Windows, there is also a DOS Boot version...however, I used the one
that does the partitioning & formatting from within Windows (XP Pro)].
The new SATA HD with it's 3 partitions was detected properly by Windows.

Subsequently, did a partition-to-partition transfer from within Windows using the same
utility (WD Data LifeGuard, Windows version...it's a free d/l from the WD website, but
doesn't have imaging capabilities). This was flawless too.
The new C:/ on the 500 GB WD HD was detected as the active partition after re-booting (did not use NG/SG/PQPM); though I had to change the boot order in the BIOS.


Later, did a logical partition-to-partition copy from 2nd part of 250 GB IDE to 2nd part.
of 500 GB WD SATA, using Symantec Ghost (SG) 8.2 Boot Disk from DOS. This too worked well; with both: the (2) IDE and (1) SATA HD's detected by SG 8.2.

Quote:

Quote from TheShadow's reply (reply with Boot Menu screenshot): On this mobo, Ghost will write an image of the SATA drive to the IDE or Flash Drive. Or, an image of any other drive to the SATA drive.  They all look the same to Ghost.

Quick Question:

What version of Ghost would that be  ...  And is it NG or SG?

Thanks

Actually it seems to make little difference whether I use Ghost 2003, (build 793) or Ghost 8.3, build 1331 (2005).

(I always boot from some media in DOS.)

They both work equally well on my computer(s) using a combination of SATAII and IDE drives (sometimes pure IDE and sometimes IDE to SATA with an adaptor).  It may vary from time to time.

To repeat myself (again), if my mobo sees the drive, so does Ghost, even Ghost 2003.

See my post of 'Oct 12, 2007' where I showed you a picture of what my mobo can see in the boot menu.  Each and every drive plugged into my system, even flash drives or SD Memory cards show up in that menu.  Everything seen there, is also seen by Ghost.

Cheers!
Shadow  8-)

Quote:

I have done direct cloning using NG 2003--just have to manually set that C:\ partition active, remove the old HDD, and switch the new cloned HDD into the same position as the old removed HDD occupied on the controller connector--before attempting to boot with the new HDD. If you have PartitionMagic 8's DOS program, you probably could have simply booted to PartitionMagic and made that cloned HDD's C:\  partition *active*, and it would have booted fine!

About NightOwl's post above:
After using WD's Data Lifeguard Tools (Windows version), I didn't have to disconnect any of the hard disks. And also did not use FDISK nor PM, since the WD Data Lifeguard utility also has formatting-cum-partitioning capability (and is a free d/l from the WD site  ;) ) ... though I haven't tried it with other brand HD's (the 160 GB Seagate & 250 GB Hitachi: both IDE), I have a feeling it should work with them as those were detected by WD-DLT & it offered to partition/format them.   (I believe Hitachi and Seagate (Seatools) offer similar utlities also).

Only additional things that subsequently needed to be done were to set the new WD 500 GB drive as the boot disk (in BIOS)...similar to what was indicated by TheShadow and NightOwl in an earlier post ...

Quote:

Does your BIOS allow you to select the various HDD's as the boot drive--that is probably the main setting change you need to do!

, ... change the drive letters to match up (since there are now a total of 3 HDD's in this dual-boot configured system & they aren't configured in RAID) via Control Panel --> Admin Tools --> Computer Management.

Am posting this in some detail as it may be useful to others and saved me this lengthy procedure:


Quote:

Quote from TheShadow: As to the question about using Partition to Partition...... I would NEVER do that! I always FDISK * (partition) my HD's first, then format both partitions.  This verifies that the drive it good and can be written to with NO problems.   *In FDISK, you must set part #1 ACTIVE or the drive will never boot from the first partition. Then I make a "Partition to Image" from the old HD (C: ) to the second partition on the new disk. Then I disconnect the old drive leaving only the new drive in the system. Then I reboot with my Ghost boot disk and do a Restore from the Image file in part #2 on the new drive to part #1 (C: ).  Job done and I have a good Ghost image on the drive if I need it.

Thanks all, for your help.
Attached image has the final system (HDD) configuration.

---

zmdmw52

Looking good!--thanks for the report back.


Quote:

Only additional things that subsequently needed to be done were to set the new WD 500 GB drive as the boot disk (in BIOS)...

Nice to have these new BIOS with the ability to choose which HDD to boot from vs the old that required the boot HDD to be the first one on the primary controller as master!

Quote:

(From NightOwls' post above): I have been using PartitionMagic since v3.xx, around 1994 or so--I have heard that problems can arise if you use PartitionMagic's feature where you can store multiple partitioning steps in a batch file and then running them at once at a later point--but, that's a different issue! I have never had a PartitionMagic partitioning compatibility issue--and honestly, I have not seen any postings regarding such an issue (admittedly--I have not gone looking being as I have never had a problem  Wink ). But I ask the Radified Community--has anyone ever had a partition compatibility/reliability issue from a partition created with PartitionMagic? Is this a real and actual problem--or a myth?--I've seen the implied statements--but never any evidence to support the concerns raised! Quote from TheShadow on Oct 14th, 2007: I always FDISK * (partition) my HD's first, then format both partitions. This verifies that the drive it good and can be written to with NO problems. *In FDISK, you must set part #1 ACTIVE or the drive will never boot from the first partition.

About using FDISK, particularly the WinME version:
As mentioned here (48-bit LBA website):


Quote:

Windows 98 and Me do not natively support 48-bit LBA drives larger than 137 GB... In order to install a new hard drive with Windows 98 or Me you must partition and format the hard drive first. Unfortunately, FDISK, the tool for partitioning a hard drive with Windows 98 or Me does not support 48-bit LBA. Therefore, you must use a 3rd party partition utility to partition the hard drive. Most hard drive manufacturers provide a partition utility with their hard drives and make the utilities available for download from their website. The partition utilities provided by the drive manufacturers will only work with their own hard drives meaning that you cannot for example use Maxtor's MaxBlast 3 utility to partition a Western Digital hard drive. Refer to Tools & Drivers on the menu on the left for the most popular partition utilities. Unfortunately, you may find that when you run any of these utilities you cannot create a partition to the full capacity of the hard drive. The reasons for this and what you can do to correct the problem is a bit complicated.

It seems the WinME version of FDISK won't support HD's greater than 137 GB for purposes of partitioning/formatting.
This also finds mention in Radified's FDISK Guide (Pg. 2)

Quote:

I posted a Windows ME boot disk on my Downloads page. You can either use this one [labeled "FDISK floppy"], or grab one from bootdisk.com. I suggest the one labeled "Windows ME" as this particular disk contains the latest version of FDISK, which supports hard drives larger than 64-GB ... there's a known-problem with trying to create partitions [with FDISK] larger than 64GB.

However, Radified/TheDoc's FDISK Guide mentions this limit as 64 GB and applicable to partitions (rather than entire Hard Disks)

The Microsoft KB (# 263044) Article that the FDISK Guide refers to mentions this limit applies to entire Hard Drive (not just partitions):

Quote:

When you use Fdisk.exe to partition a hard disk that is larger than 64 GB (64 gigabytes, or 68,719,476,736 bytes) in size, Fdisk does not report the correct size of the hard disk.

The Hotfix that the above MS KB article refers to would not help to create/partition Hard Disks greater than 137 GB capacity. That is for the Win98/Win98SE version of FDISK:

Quote:

NOTE: This hotfix is not designed for 48-bit logical block addressing (LBA) hard disks, and it is not supported on hard disks larger than 137 GB.

On searching a bit further, I came across this MS KB (# 280737) article, that mentions that the WinME version of FDISK is capable of handling HD's greater than 512 GB and can create partitions greater than 512 GB ... a maximum limit for HD capacity isn't mentioned in that article (... I guess that we haven't (yet) reached that limit, in terms of current available HD capacities):

Quote:

RESOLUTION: (from MS KB Article # 280737) To work around this issue and create partitions that are larger than 512 GB, do not use Fdisk to partition your hard disk. You can use the Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Setup boot disk that is provided with the full version of Windows Me to partition new drives before you install Windows. Some third-party programs also contain programs that can partition drives that are larger than 512 GB. For example, Ghost from Symantec Corporation contains a program called Gdisk that partitions drives that are larger than 512 GB.

Interestingly, the 48-bit LBA website lists a number of partitioning &/or format tools, many of them free to use, but with the caveat (as mentioned above) to check HD make compatibility b/f using a particular program.

Hope the above is of help, particularly to those who still prefer using FDISK.

The size on quotes was unreadibly small. I bumped up to 12.

NightOwl wrote on Nov 30^th, 2007 at 12:36am:

Nice to have these new BIOS with the ability to choose which HDD to boot from vs the old that required the boot HDD to be the first one on the primary controller as master!

Presently am using a new mainboard (Intel G95 chipset) with the same Hard Disks referred to above & like the previous one (ECS, with a VIA chipset) this also allows selection of boot device by pressing a given *F* key ... the feature selecting boot device on modern BIOS's was (IMO) a natural sequence to implementation of the SATA interface (where there is no 'Master' or 'Slave' hard disk).

Hi Again!
You probably don't have the experience with MANY brands and Models of motherboards like I do, so you don't know of all the steps we've gone thru in this transition from ALL IDE to SATA to SATA2 (twice as fast as original SATA) .
With the NEW motherboards, (the better ones anyways) SATA2 has become so transparent to the OS that NO special SATA drivers are even required anymore.

Ghost looks at the mobo to see what's available for it to use.  
What drives Ghost actually sees, is totally dependent on what the mobo shows it.

Now, to save space and of course MONEY, mobo manufacturers are eliminating the IDE controller and ports from the mobo all together.
Likewise the floppy disk, PS2, keyboard and mouse ports.
They call that progress, but I HATE it, because none of the older hardware will even work on those new mobo's.

My newest mobo has a floppy port, but, it will only service just ONE drive, (A:..But, not B:).  
The IDE port #2 is GONE.  Yup, just one, 2-Drive IDE port left.
BUT, it has SIX SATA2 ports and 8 USB ports (four on the back panel and four more as headers on the mobo).

As the new mobo's become more capable, so does Ghost.

happy Independence Day everyone!
The Shadow  8-)

TheShadow wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 11:21am:

The IDE port #2 is GONE.Yup, just one, 2-Drive IDE port left. BUT, it has SIX SATA2 ports and 8 USB ports (four on the back panel and four more as headers on the mobo).

That's the way most mainboards are available today (only 1 IDE port). But on the other hand, DVD writers are now available in SATA versions. To partially offset the single port, the single IDE channel can be used for 2 (IDE/PATA) Hard Disks (though access times/speed will be less, being on a single channel).


TheShadow wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 11:21am:

Likewise the floppy disk controller, PS2, (PS/2)keyboard and (PS/2) mouse ports.

Those are present on my (Socket 775) mobo (Gigabyte GA-73VM-S2 Motherboard); bought about a month back.