This new thread is a continuation of the orginal thread titled "Norton Ghost 14," which has grown to 5 pages:

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1202684531

Quote:

Pleonasm, can you check the version of *snap.sys in c:\windows\system32\drivers?  Volsnap.sys is the MS version, symsnap.sys is Symantec's licensed StorageCraft version.  I don't know what the filename is in the StorageCraft version.

Bill, the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver is:  “C:\Windows\System32\drivers\stcvsm.sys” (version 2.1.0.29).

NG14 has licensed updated technology from Storagecraft, and fully supports VSS (volume shadowing).  This is arguably the most important factor to consider when looking at hot image backup software.  You can tell NG14 supports it by running the vssadmin command:


Code:

C:\Documents and Settings\Woodb000>vssadmin list providers vssadmin 1.0 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool (C) Copyright 2001 Microsoft Corp. Provider name: 'Symantec Software VSS Provider' Provider type: Software Provider Id: {262b716e-bb23-41b5-aaef-e2c15e767167} Version: 1.0 Provider name: 'MS Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0' Provider type: System Provider Id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5} Version: 1.0.0.7

I checked the symsnap.sys file in NG14, and its made by Storagecraft, version 7.0.1.24397, Copyright 2001-2008.

NG10 does not have a VSS provider.

Can someone with NG12 run the "vssadmin list providers" command to see if NG12 has a VSS provider?  Also, what is the version of symsnap.sys?

Bill, this is from NG12 (Vista SP1):


Quote:

C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list providers vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool (C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp. Provider name: 'Microsoft Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0'   Provider type: System   Provider Id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5}   Version: 1.0.0.7

symsnap.sys is version 6.0.1.22984 (again NG12 Vista SP1), modified dated 10/5/2007

John. wrote on Mar 21^st, 2008 at 1:12pm:

Bill, this is from NG12 (Vista SP1): Quote: C:\Windows\system32>vssadmin list providers vssadmin 1.1 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool (C) Copyright 2001-2005 Microsoft Corp. Provider name: 'Microsoft Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0'   Provider type: System   Provider Id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5}   Version: 1.0.0.7 symsnap.sys is version 6.0.1.22984 (again NG12 Vista SP1), modified dated 10/5/2007

Wow, interesting - NG14 is actually the first version of Ghost with a true VSS provider.  Among other things, this means that you can use it to back up programs like Exchange that are VSS-aware and can put their database in a consistent state before the backup begins.

This would seem to be the major benefit of NG14 over NG12?

Bill, unless I am misunderstanding the situation, the existence of the Microsoft Software Shadow Copy provider isn’t a feature of Norton Ghost 12 or 14; rather, it is a feature of (some editions of) Windows Vista.


Quote:

…this means that you can use it to back up programs like Exchange that are VSS-aware and can put their database in a consistent state before the backup begins.

The situation may have changed, but as of August 2006, your assertion wasn’t true:


Quote:

Microsoft provides a framework called the "Volume Shadow Copy Service" (VSS) to assist in the creation of clean backups. This service can be used by backup products (called "VSS Requestors"), as well as by applications (called "VSS writers), which create data (such as Exchange, SQL Server, etc). When a backup product requests a backup, it can tell VSS to "quiesce" these VSS-aware applications. This will cause these applications to perform a quick flush of their critical data, without interrupting anything, so that the snapshot device driver will capture their data in its optimal state. Interacting properly with VSS is critical to performing a good quality backup and if you are an enterprise customer you really need to give this particular issue some weight. Symantec's online knowledge base indicates that you must take down your Exchange server in order to successfully backup its data. StorageCraft and Acronis allow you to backup your Exchange server without taking it down. VSS-aware snapshot device drivers which provide snapshots of volumes to backup software are called "VSS Software Providers" and of the three products only StorageCraft's snapshot device driver is a true VSS Software Provider. Neither Symantec's nor Acronis' device driver is a VSS software provider. You can verify this by installing these three products and then typing the command: C:\> vssadmin list providers You will see Microsoft's system provider "volsnap" as well as StorageCraft's VSS software provider.

Source:  http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showpost.php?p=829901&postcount=275

Note that when I run “vssadmin list providers” on my Windows Vista Business SP1 system, it explicitly reports the existence of the StorageCraft VSS provider:


Quote:

Provider name: 'StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Software Provider' Provider type: Software Version: 1.0.0.0 Provider name: 'Microsoft Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0' Provider type: System Version: 1.0.0.7

Pleonasm, you must have missed my earlier post.  NG14 does have a VSS storage provider, albeit created by Storagecraft - this is what I get on my Windows XP machine:

Quote:

C:\Documents and Settings\Woodb000>vssadmin list providers vssadmin 1.0 - Volume Shadow Copy Service administrative command-line tool (C) Copyright 2001 Microsoft Corp. Provider name: 'Symantec Software VSS Provider' Provider type: Software Provider Id: {262b716e-bb23-41b5-aaef-e2c15e767167} Version: 1.0 Provider name: 'MS Software Shadow Copy provider 1.0' Provider type: System Provider Id: {b5946137-7b9f-4925-af80-51abd60b20d5} Version: 1.0.0.7

So that Aug 2006 quote is out of date, it applies to NG12 but not to NG 14.  See my point?

Also, the MS VSS provider has existed since at least Windows XP.

Bill, I see your point – thanks for the clarification.  Interestingly, however, the user guide for Norton Ghost 14 contains no assertion that the utility is “VSS-aware”.

Yes, I don't know why they don't publicize it.  The NG10 Readme.txt file specifically notes that its not:

Quote:

**************************************************************** KNOWN PRODUCT ISSUES **************************************************************** This section includes known issues that were not yet resolved when Symantec Norton Ghost shipped to customers. ---------------------------------------------------------------- General Issues ---------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Norton Ghost is not integrated with Microsoft's Volume Shadow Copy service

However, the NG14 readme makes no mention of the fact that it is a VSS provider.

While not trying to be pedantic, Norton Ghost should be called a “VSS requestor" rather than a “VSS provider”.


Quote:

Requestors: Initiating Shadow Copy Creation The Volume Shadow Copy Service is invoked by the requestor, which is typically a backup application that creates shadow copy volumes to back up data while the source volume continues to operate in production. Requestors can also be management applications that manage shadow copy creation and usage, or fast recovery solutions which are specific products that reduce service level agreement (SLA) times for specific applications. The requestor also communicates with the writers to gather information about what should be backed up and how it should be backed up. Software-based Providers Software-based shadow copy providers typically intercept and process I/O requests in a software layer between the file system and the volume manager software. These providers are implemented as a user-mode DLL component and at least one kernel-mode device driver, typically a storage filter driver. The work of creating these shadow copies is done in software. A software-based shadow copy provider must maintain a “point-in-time” view of a volume by having access to a data set that can be used to recreate volume status prior to the shadow copy. An example of this is the copy-on-write technique of the system provider. However, the Volume Shadow Copy Service places no restrictions on what technique software-based providers use to create and maintain shadow copies.

Source:  How Volume Shadow Copy Service Works

:)

NG14 is both a requester and a provider, as is ShadowProtect.  When backing up, it requests services from the provider to maintain the "point-in-time" view of a volume.  According to the Storagecraft forums, the MS provider is buggy (leaks memory), perhaps that's why Storagecraft created their own and licensed it to Symantec.

Quote:

NG14 is both a requester and a provider…

Depends on what you mean by “NG14.”  From my viewpoint, the Symantec application (i.e., Norton Ghost 14) is a “VSS requestor” only, and the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver is a “VSS provider.”  True, these two components are packaged together into one product, but they are nonetheless distinct.


Quote:

…the MS provider is buggy (leaks memory)…

I have also read that the StorageCraft provider is faster than the one from Microsoft.  Additionally, it is my understanding that StorageCraft licenses an older version of its Volume Snapshot Driver to Symantec – i.e., the “latest & greatest” StorageCraft technology will be found in ShadowProtect but not in competitive products (e.g., Norton Ghost) that use the StorageCraft driver.

That's why I asked you about the version number on your Storagecraft Volume Snapshot Driver, but the version was completely different than the Norton-supplied one by Storagecraft so no way to tell how "old" the Norton one is.  However, this discussion has established that it is the first time that NG has even licensed the provider technology from Storagecraft, so it could be relatively new and shiny and good.

Quote:

…it is the first time that NG has even licensed the provider technology from Storagecraft…

Actually, Symantec licensed and used the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver years ago, beginning with Norton Ghost 9, and it is also present in version 10 and version 12, too.

The confusion here, I believe, is due to the fact that the StorageCraft driver can be used with or without VSS (see section 2.2 of the ShadowProtect Desktop Edition 3.1 User Guide).  As noted previously, VSS is a characteristic of the operating system and not of Norton Ghost or ShadowProtect.


Quote:

…the version number on your Storagecraft Volume Snapshot Driver, but the version was completely different than the Norton-supplied one by Storagecraft so no way to tell how "old" the Norton one is

Yes, I have looked at this previously, and it seems that there is no correspondence between the version numbers used by StorageCraft for their Volume Snapshot Driver when packaged with ShadowProtect versus with Norton Ghost.  I do recall reading, however, posts on the StorageCraft forums by company personnel stating that the Volume Snapshot Driver used by ShadowProtect is newer than that employed by competitive products.  It makes sense – StorageCraft is presumably ensuring that it maintains a competitive technological edge, even in the presence of sharing its “secret sauce” with the competition:  the best of both worlds, no?

A nice, easy-to-read overview of the architecture and use of VSS by a backup application can be found in this brief Dell white paper:  Volume Shadow Copy Service.

Pleonasm wrote on Mar 26^th, 2008 at 8:08am:

Quote: …it is the first time that NG has even licensed the provider technology from Storagecraft… Actually, Symantec licensed and used the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver years ago, beginning with Norton Ghost 9, and it is also present in version 10 and version 12, too. The confusion here, I believe, is due to the fact that the StorageCraft driver can be used with or without VSS (see section 2.2 of the ShadowProtect Desktop Edition 3.1 User Guide).  As noted previously, VSS is a characteristic of the operating system and not of Norton Ghost or ShadowProtect.

We know from previous posts that NG10 and NG12 are not using the Storagecraft provider because it is not listed under "vssadmin list providers".   Also, while running NG10 I have verified that even MS VSS is not being used by doing a "vssadmin list shadows" while doing a backup and none are listed, whereas they are listed when running NG14 and Shadowprotect.  I am doubtful that NG12 is using any shadow sets either since it does not have the Storagecraft provider.  I don't understand what pre-NG14 versions of NG are doing when it says that it creates a snapshot of the volume, as no snapshots are listed.

Quote:

We know from previous posts that NG10 and NG12 are not using the StorageCraft provider because it is not listed under "vssadmin list providers"

While Norton Ghost 9, 10 and 12 are not using the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver (symsnap.sys) in a VSS provider mode, they are nonetheless using the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver itself.  The confusion in our discussion, Bill, may be due to the fact that the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver can operate with or without VSS.  In Norton Ghost 9, 10 and 12, the driver was used without VSS; in Norton Ghost 14, it is used with VSS.

To verify that previous editions of Norton Ghost used the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver, please see this thread (especially Reply #9).

To understand more about the StorageCraft Volume Snapshot Driver and its architectural and functional relationship to VSS, please see:  Volume Snapshot Driver and VSS

Yes I was aware they used the Storagecraft driver in previous versions.

That second thread you posted was very informative.  I was confused and thought that MS also had a VSS software provider, but the article makes it clear that the MS provider is a system provider and that Storagecraft is providing the software provider.

So, now that NG14 is using VSS via the Storagecraft provider, it should be more robust than earlier versions in doing hot backups, eg it should be able to back up Exchange, Oracle, etc.

In my mind, this means that NG14 and ShadowProtect are pretty much on the same level in terms of hot-backup reliability and robustness, so the remaining factors which would cause one to choose one over the other would be in the area of features, eg ShadowProtect's ability to do  differential backups etc.

Bill Wood wrote on Apr 8^th, 2008 at 9:03am:

this means that NG and ShadowProtect are pretty much on the same level in terms of hot-backup reliability and robustness

Interesting.

Hi All,

I want to ask about Norton Ghost 14. I'm a newbie, and want to ask about the product. Do we have to install NG14 in the computer we want to make the image? As I know, NG2005 doesn't need to install, we can use a bootable CD and create the image via the interface, but there is a problem with my computer. I don't know why, maybe because I'm using DVD ROM, not CD ROM so it only boot. My question is, can I create the image (and also restore) the image without installing NG14?

Thanks before :)

You need to install it.  The whole point of NG14 is it can do hot backups.