We have a new ISP, with a new wireless router, which was placed further away from where I usually connect from.

The signal is now not as strong, and sometimes even drops.

I was thinking of getting a wireless repeater, but noticed Newegg also has a product they call a "Range extender".

Anybody know about these products? .. how they differ?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=wireless+range+extender

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=wireless+repeater

I basically want to plug it in halfway between the router and my laptop.

I've not used any repeater-type products, but the range improvements that come from 802.11n or the new kind of intermediate products marketed by companies like Belkin as 802.11g-MIMO are pretty significant.

Normally in an all-802.11n network you have multiple antennas at both endpoints, and this is used to perform spatial multiplexing using some very sophisticated signal processing and amazingly precise position measurement.

If instead you have (say) a traditional 802.11g single-antenna receiver, you can't do that, but the multiple antennas at the sender end (which still have to fit within a very tight total transmit-power budget) can do something equally impressive, beamforming so that the signals constructively reinforce at the receiver antenna.

The problem, of course, is that many practical range limitations are mostly due to things like walls that don't just attenuate signals, they reflect and scatter them, which will probably reduce the effectiveness of things like beamforming. If you've got a problem like that with a wall, a repeater-type product which lets you "wire around" the obstacle may work better.

The two products you mention do very similar things.  They just have different names because of the slightly different ways they interface with the network.  I would classify most of the products on both pages as repeaters.  Either would do what you need.

I agree with Nigel that getting to 802.11n with MIMO will significantly improver your range.  Even upgrading from 802.11g to 802.11g MIMO will help a lot.

Another option is something I would be more likely to call a range extender is something like this one:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122062
Basically is uses the electrical wires in the house to talk from one adapter to the next.  You get one with a Cat5 plug to hook up to your router with a network cord.  The other one can either have a Cat5 plug, or a built-in wireless component.  Depending on how many walls you are going through and how far the electrical wires have to go, this might be a better option.

There is similar equipment that does the same thing but uses phone wiring in your home instead of electrical wiring.  In many cases the phone wiring can be pushed farther and faster but the adapters are usually more expensive.  You want Home Phone Networking Alliance (HPNA) standard stuff if this is the route you decide to take.

Note that neither the electrical nor phone adapters can talk outside of the box on the side of the house.  So if you have a separate electrical box or phone network interface, that respective option won't work for you.  In other words, these options do work for neighbors in completly different houses.  Use wireless MIMO if you are in that situation.

Nigel and MrMagoo,

I haven't tinkered with 802.11n.  As I understand, it can interoperate with 'g' hardware, but when used in mixed mode like that do you still get enhanced range?  IOW, assuming Rad's new wireless router came from the new ISP and is not 'n', can he still get better range without replacing the ISP's router?  Or does he have to replace the ISP's router so he has 'n' hardware at both ends?


Rad,

In your situation, I've used a dd-wrt compatible router like the Asus WL-520gU or Linksys WRT54GL, flashed with dd-wrt.  It's an inexpensive yet flexible solution.  Take a look at dd-wrt's tutorials and look at the options on configuring it as a WAP, repeater bridge, or wireless bridge.

When visiting my parents' house, I tap into the neighbor's wireless internet (with their permission, of course).  My parents are non-technical and don't have computers, so it doesn't make sense to signup with an ISP just for the occasional times my siblings or I are visiting.

The neighbor's signal is weak throughout my parents' house, but our garage is near the neighbor's property line.  I stuck a router on a shelf in the garage, with dd-wrt configured as a repeater, and it provides good coverage throughout the rest of the house.

Dan Goodell wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 4:38pm:

when used in mixed mode like that do you still get enhanced range?

Yes, you do. Essentially, in a mixed network the N equipment can't spatially multiplex, but the multiple antennas and enhanced signal-processing capability of the N base station does help with the single-antenna G equipment (as the lower-spec G-MIMO base stations that only implement part of the N spec do too).


Dan Goodell wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 4:38pm:

can he still get better range without replacing the ISP's router?Or does he have to replace the ISP's router so he has 'n' hardware at both ends?

Well, it's really best to start putting in N routers from now if you can. You get the immediate range boost while you're still using the G devices in things like notebooks that are hard/expensive to replace, and as you age out those devices you can replace them with N clients and can get the full benefit.

It's really a question of what gives you get the best bang for the buck over the lifetime of the equipment. Spending money on a G repeater is all very well, but that repeater won't be of any really use if you have N gear, and while I can't speak for the North American market it's already only about NZD$30 to have an N adapter in the lowest-end Dell notebooks down here - so N-equipped clients are at the right price point already. Indeed, I just had to replace The Wife's notebook yesterday and went with with an N-equipped one. So, I'd expect a repeater to have a pretty limited useful shelf life, making it better IMO to spend the bucks on the router instead.

But I'd also have to back the recommendation for the WRT54G, I should have thought of that - Rad being the tinkering type I'd say that he'd really enjoy the experience of getting into the low-level detail, and those learning experiences DON'T have a limited shelf life!

wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 6:09pm:

But I'd also have to back the recommendation for the WRT54G, I should have thought of that - Rad being the tinkering type I'd say that he'd really enjoy the experience of getting into the low-level detail, and those learning experiences DON'T have a limited shelf life!

Thanks. You guys rock. I will study the dd-wrt's tutorials .. I like that kinda stuff.

Been having trouble with my eyes. Not sure what's the problem. Been reading lots of legal stuff last week (for court). Feel like sandpaper in my eyes. Only thing that helps is closing them. Hard to do for long.

The main house router is incorporated into the same box that provides TV + phone, so is not replacable. It is G.

I picked up a WAP54G recently from a friend that couldn't get a signal to appear on the wireless network settings page.  

The device connected fine, but the signal strength would appear as 0%

That being said, I had recently heard from a friend that they put a "hacked" firmware on a WRT54G box known as "Tomato"

I figured if there was a hack for the WRT54G, there should be one for the WAP54G as well.

Some quick Googling brought me to http://www.linksysinfo.org/index.php where I found a butt-load of info on most of the Linksys products.

I settled on the "MustDie" firmware hack, as it gave the option to boost the antenna signal from 22 mW all the way to 84mW!!!

I started out with only a small amount of boost, and it seemed to help.  I decided that since I got it for free, I might as well see what 84 mW would do.  

I WAS BLOWN AWAY!!!

After I upped it all the way, I was able to get a signal from the WAP over 300 ft. away...through a basement wall, two interior walls, and a garage wall!!!

I let it run over night, and came back to my lair with the idea that it would probably be too hot to touch (I was worried as all heck that it would catch fire in the middle of the night), but it was still near the same ambient temp. that it was after only a few minutes of running.

If you can get one cheap, you should go that route.

Rad wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 9:48pm:

The main house router is incorporated into the same box that provides TV + phone, so is not replacable

Oh, right, Cable TV. I keep forgetting about that since there's none of that pretty much anywhere in the world outside the US. Anyway, if the cable router provides a wired Ethernet connection as well as an 802.11G one, then you could still run the second wireless router through the wireless connection in the first, so you actually do have lotsa options.

Just don't get into boosting the gain if you live in a city; it's not neighborly.

wrote on May 20^th, 2008 at 12:32am:

Just don't get into boosting the gain if you live in a city; it's not neighborly.

I used NetStumbler to see the other access points in my area, and chose a channel as far away from the majority as possible

;)

LoTGoD wrote on May 19^th, 2008 at 10:41pm:

I settled on the "MustDie" firmware hack,

LoTGoD,

Do you have a download link? The one I found was "dead."

I almost forgot where I got it from!!
Found it on the last page of the MustDie thread...
http://www.linksysinfo.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32048&highlight=mustdie

Here is the direct link, but I suggest you read the entire thread first.
http://rapidshare.com/files/95588148/MustDie_2.07_r1.zip

Also, here is the Linksys 2.07 firmware that your WAP54G has to be on before you can use must die.
ftp://ftp.linksys.com/pub/network/WAP54Gv2_fw207.zip

Thanks. I've downloaded the files.

I don't have a real need for it at present but I'll try it when it's time to buy my next wireless router.

Nigel,

You stated that even in mixed mode "the multiple antennas and enhanced signal-processing capability of the N base station does help (improve range)."  But Rad's situation is the reverse--a 'g' base station that he can't replace.  Is there any advantage to using 'n' adapters in his laptops (or desktops)?  Granted, if your laptop doesn't have either, you may as well buy 'n' for future-proofing, but would there be any benefit to replacing a functioning 'g' adapter with an 'n' for use with a 'g' base station?


Brian,

LoTGoD's post is of interest if you have a WAP54G lying around (which, coincidentally, I do), but I wouldn't suggest going out and buying one.  It's an AP only, and does not have the built-in ethernet switches like popular home routers.  (And that's assuming you're going to buy 'g', which as Nigel says, may not be economically sensible anymore.)

One reason I like the dd-wrt firmware is because it provides the flexibility to reconfigure the device as a router, AP, repeater, etc., so I don't have to invest in those specific types of devices.  If I need an AP or repeater, I can configure the box that way and hang it on my router, but if I later move it somewhere else I can reconfigure it back to a router.

The advantage of the WRT54GL is that Linksys used open source firmware, so lots of third-party firmware alternatives have become available.  (Beware: this does not apply to the standard WRT54G, which has been crippled with limited ram.)

However, because of the higher price of the GL model, I've switched to using dd-wrt on the less expensive Asus WL-520gU with very good results.  (I also like the form factor of the Asus, which easily lends itself to wall mounting.)

But my real favorite was dd-wrt on the Buffalo WHR-HP-G54.  This is like the Linksys but with a power amplifier for the antenna.  I had outstanding results with those units.  Unfortunately, ongoing legal issues forced Buffalo to withdraw those routers from the US market, although I hear it's still being sold outside the US.

Dan,

I made a mistake. I have a Linksys WAG54G. I have no range or signal strength issues but I was interested in that firmware on a theoretical basis.

I have a Linksys WRT54GS, not being used anymore.

Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 is not available in Australia.

Dan Goodell wrote on May 21^st, 2008 at 3:09am:

Is there any advantage to using 'n' adapters in his laptops

I don't (yet) have real-world experience on that combo to say unequivocally; it definitely should do in principle, but it's hard to be certain whether it's to a significant degree since the quality of implementation of equipment for laptops is very highly variable (e.g. how much signal-processing capability the card has, how good the firmware is, antenna arrangement) . Once the wife's replacement machine arrives in about three weeks (the lowest-end Dell Inspiron 1525 sold in our market, but with the N adapter upgrade) arrives I will be able to try some simple tests though.

I can't do a properly controlled apples-to-apples comparison of otherwise similar models but hopefully I'll be able to do some side-by-side comparisons to see if there's enough of a range difference to make a difference you can really notice (if you need to do fine measurement to tell the difference that'd be a negative result in my book).

"if you need to do fine measurement to tell the difference that'd be a negative result in my book"

Yes, I would agree.  I've told people that if their laptop already has 'g', then spending money to replace it with 'n' won't do any good unless they have a 'n' base station.  So I wanted to make sure I haven't been misadvising them.

But I've also been telling them that replacing a 'g' base station with 'n' won't make any difference unless they also replace the laptop adapter with 'n'.  Based on your comments above, I'll have to modify that somewhat.

I'm using a Linksys WAG54G. Can I use my old Linksys WRT54GS, with DHCP disabled, as a repeater and extend my range?

Magoo sent me a Wireless Range Expander he had laying around, not using. It arrived today. Linksys WRE54G. At first I thought it might have trouble, cuz the house Wireless unit = 2Wire. But it works fine. Basically plug it in and load install CD. Have to have a connection to source wireless in order for WRE54G to sync-up.

I put it ~half way between me and the source router. Signal boosted from low/dropping to good. Definitely faster.

Thanks Magoo. Karma to you.

This thing was still in the shrinkwarp .. never opened. I love you, man.  [smiley=kiss.gif]

"Can I use my old Linksys WRT54GS, with DHCP disabled, as a repeater and extend my range?"

Probably, but it might depend on how old your "old Linksys WRT54GS" is.  GS versions 5.0 and later have crippled the amount of flash memory, so the only dd-wrt version you can use is the stripped-down "micro" version.  Earlier GS versions could use any dd-wrt.  I haven't used the micro version, so can't confirm what's in the feature set.

I've become familiar enough with the choices, but for a newcomer the plethora of download choices is a serious source of confusion.  First, there's the main versions (2.2, 2.3, 2.4, etc.), then there's the mid-version betas and release candidates (rc2, rc7, etc.), then there's the feature set variations (standard, mini, micro, mega, voip, vpn), and finally there may be different builds for different hardware (Asus, Belkin, Linksys, Dell, etc., and "generic").

(Tip: the "Linksys" builds are only if you're using a stand-alone tftp uploader; if you're upgrading via the router's web interface, use the "generic" build.)

Documentation isn't bad, but the Wiki idea doesn't lend itself well to coherent organization, making info sometimes hard to find or follow.  To cut through some of the confusion, here's some quick links:

• Linksys router version numbers
  
  
• dd-wrt features
  
  
• feature set variations
  
  
• specific instructions for WRT54GS
  

Assuming you're not restricted to the "micro" version type, I recommend:

• download: dd-wrt.v24_mini_generic.bin
  
• download: dd-wrt.v24_std_generic.bin
  
• reset the GS to factory defaults
  
• isolate your computer and GS from your existing LAN:
  
  
  • disable your computer's wireless adapter
    
  • set computer to static IP 192.168.1.10
    
  • connect ethernet cable from router to computer
  
  
• using the GS's web interface, flash the mini_generic version
  
• reboot
  
• using the GS's web interface, flash the std_generic version
  
• configure GS as repeater
  

See the dd-wrt tutorials for lots of neat options that can keep a geek happy for months.  In particular, I like static dhcp (which comes in handy setting up network printers, or when configuring port forwarding to specific machines), and pptp vpn (which allows me, without special software or special vpn routers, to vpn into my LAN when I'm away from home).

Must say .. beautifully-formatted post. Bullets. Paragraphs. Links. Clean.

For those people using Linksys wireless routers, the ones with dual antennas, Radio Shack sells High Gain antennas for them.
The replacement antennas are at least twice as long as the original ones and should give extended range.

I'm considering investing in a pair.  I'd like to link my neighbor to my system and their computer is about 200' away.  


just a thought,

The Shadow  8-)

"Radio Shack sells High Gain antennas for them. [...] I'm considering investing in a pair.  I'd like to link my neighbor to my system and their computer is about 200' away."

Shadow, if you do that, I hope you'll share your assessment of how well it works.

Or if anyone has tried a directional antenna (like this Hawking example) with a run-of-the-mill consumer-grade router, I'd like to hear about that, too.  I'm curious what inexpensive options are available to the ordinary home user who just wants a little more range.

TheShadow wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2008 at 2:07pm:

For those people using Linksys wireless routers, the ones with dual antennas, Radio Shack sells High Gain antennas for them.

My only problem with the Hi-gain antennas is that they usually cost as much as a repeater or another router would.  It might be a good idea if you have a really expensive 802.11N router, but for the cheaper routers it seems to make more fiscal sense to buy a repeater.

Dan,

I'm out of town and have just noticed your post. Thanks. I'll work on it in a few days time.

"My only problem with the Hi-gain antennas is that they usually cost as much as a repeater or another router would."

That's a good point, and worth keeping in mind.

But don't forget you need to have a power outlet available.  If The Shadow only has outside space between him and the neighbor, there wouldn't be a place to plug in a router/repeater.

Between my parents' house and their neighbors, it was convenient that my parents' garage was appx halfway between the two, so it was natural to stick a repeater in the garage to relay the signal from the neighbors.  And also more neighborly than going over and changing their antenna.

Looks like these are only $9.99.  Not too shabby if they work...

http://www.radioshack.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2032382&cp=2032061.2032365&fbc=1&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAntennas&fbn=Type%2FAntennas

There's an interesting article in the July 2008 issue of Maximum PC magazine on upgrading the Linksys WRT54G router with other firmware, specifically the Tomato firmware.  Also some performance and feature enhancements.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/hack_your_hardware?page=0%2C3

http://www.polarcloud.com/tomato

A little problem I had was that another laptop in the main  house COULD NOT SEE the repeater. I'm guessing this was cuz the router ("gateway" they say this is called) is 2wire, while the PCMCIA card in the other laptop is also 2wire, while the extender is Linksys. So the two 2wire items connect fine, but the 2wire laptop cannot seee the Linksys extender. (After loading install CD, it says "No Linksys extender can be found" .. while sitting right next to it).

And then the Linksys extender was interfereing with the connection between the 2wire (PCMCIA) laptop and 2wire router/gateway.  Soon as you unplug the Linksys, the laptop would then immediately see (connect to) the router/gateway.

Sorta fixed this by moving the extender to a different room, which was previously sitting right next to 2wire laptop.

Also the AT&T ppl kinda screwed up by putting the router/gateway on firplace mantel (which contains metal flue), which was a bad place to put it. They came out a couple days ago and moved it away from and on the OTHER SIDE of the fireplace, so the firplace is now NOT BETWEEN router/gateway and laptops. That seemed to help a lot. Before, I think the metal flue was bouncing the signal A-WAY from the direction where it was needed

Dan and John,

My old Linksys router, WRT54GS, was ver 1.0 so I flashed dd-wrt.v24-9517_VINT_std.bin. I chose Repeater mode and entered my WPA number but I must be omitting something as the signal strength and range of the signal is unchanged whether the WRT54GS is on or off.

Anything obvious here?

I followed the tutorials and setup the WRT54GS for wireless bridge mode, then repeater bridge mode. I can't detect any better range or signal at the "periphery" of my network.


PS... I finally got it working. I'm not sure yet about extended range but signal strength in marginal areas has been improved significantly.

Brian,

Ironically, yesterday I was in the middle of doing exactly this--setting up a repeater bridge.  I saw your post yesterday and was going to respond, but the project wasn't going well here, so I thought I'd better hold off ... maybe it wasn't as easy as I thought it was.

The customer had an existing WRT54G (very old--version 1.0), placed at one end of the house (no, not ideal, but that's where Comcast came into the house).  He was complaining of "weak signal" at the other end of the house, so I figured I'd plug in a WRT54GL with dd-wrt on it at the other end and configure it as a repeater.  Wasn't working.  

After some troubleshooting, I eventually came to the conclusion the old WRT54G was flaky--its radio would show up as available to the clients but they couldn't connect.  (Turns out it wasn't a signal strength problem--he eventually admitted his laptop couldn't even stay connected in the same room as the old router.)

So I reconfigured the new GL back to a gateway router, swapped it for the old WRT54G, and voila!  He didn't need a repeater, he needed a new router.

So, dd-wrt wasn't the problem.  But I see I don't need to tell you what settings I use because you got yours working.  That's good to hear, and sorry about the prolonged silence here.

Dan,

There was no need for an earlier reply as you provided all the information in your previous post. I just had to understand what I was reading and that took a while. After numerous errors (mine), I finally understood what I was supposed to be doing and in retrospect it's easy. A five minute job.

It definitely works. I found a spot outside the house, behind a brick wall, where I couldn't see the signal from my WAG54G, primary router. I positioned the WRT54GS in the bathroom with a view of the laptop and the laptop received a good to excellent signal from that router and connected to the internet.

We don't have reception problems even though there are a few potentially difficult areas. For the signal to reach my son's room it has to travel through the edge of a concrete slab, a double brick wall and a plaster wall. So he doesn't see a maximum signal but it's quite satisfactory. It was interesting that having the WRT54GS next to his computer gave him a stronger signal than the signal from the primary router.

My front door is 20 metres from the primary router. I can get a signal on my laptop 30 metres beyond the front door. So 50 metres with several plaster walls in between. When I positioned the WRT54GS near the front door I got a signal 40 metres beyond the front door. A small increase in range but I see the ability to send signals around obstructions to be the main benefit.

I'm a wiser man.

Brian, each situation is unique.  But I've had luck with a combination of techniques for homes and small offices.  

First, be sure the router AND the pc antennas are up HIGH and in the clear.  I don't like pci adapters because the antenna is typically on the floor behind the pc.  Bad location for radio waves.  I suggest USB adapters because you can move them around and higher and in the clear.

Besides up high and in the clear, try changing channels which sometimes helps.  Channel 1, 6, and 11 are non-overlapping.  6 is default for a lot of routers so I avoid that one if there are problems.

Look for other 2.4 ghz devices in the office, such as cordless phones etc. which can cause interference.

It's best if pc and router both are same manufacturer.  Don't mix b and g models.  Some of the advanced functions of the g models require corresponding adapter on the pc.

Some people expect wireless signals to be perfect from front of the house in the garage to back bedroom upstairs.  Oh well ....  I can only do so much.

Dan and John,

I meant to ask, what SSID do you use on your WRT-54G repeater? The same as the primary wireless router or a different one. When I did my tests I was using a different SSID on my repeater so that I could tell that the system was working. But I recall I had problems transferring files between computers that were receiving different SSIDs.

Brian, I haven't used the WRT54G as a repeater.  But I would think you would want to use the same SSID as the primary router/access point.  That way the user does not have to reconnect when moving within the range of one or the other.  Also enable SSID Broadcast on both units.

Linksys makes a Range Expander (aka repeater), the WRE54G.

"what SSID do you use on your WRT-54G repeater?"

I set it up as per this dd-wrt link.  As in the diagram, two SSIDs are used--a matching SSID in "basic wireless" and a different SSID in "virtual interfaces".

Thanks. I'll leave it that way. Different SSIDs.