Hello, this is my first post.  First I'd like to thank whomever it is that operates this discussion board.  I have no knowledge as to how they operate, but I'm glad they are.  Is there anyone here who has experience/knowledge with BootIt NG?  I'm primarily interested in using it as a boot manager, but also for imaging.  Thanks in advance for any advice/help that might be put forth.

@ Dirk B

BING is one of my favourite apps. Most of your questions will be answered here...

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/howto/index.htm

How many OS are you planning to use?

Did not know BootIT NG had imaging capabilities. Thot it was strictly a boot manager.

Does BING have good imaging capabilities? Basic only?

What is rationale of combining a boot manager with imaging client (or vice versa).

Why one of your favorites? (that's a big vote for them)

Thanks for the quick response Brian!  Well, what I would like to do is:  I just purchased a 1TB HDD.  I'd like to partition it into several (I understand that I am not limited to 4 primary partitions with BootIt NG) primary partitions and run several different Windows XP/software configurations.  What I'd like to do after partitioning is restore a base configuration of the OS to each partition, and then proceed with different application installations on the various drives.  Is this something that is not too challenging?  I am only moderately technically savvy, but willing to learn.

Dirk B,

That will be a dream. First up, I do use unlimited primaries. I hesitated for the first six months as I didn't understand the concept but now I wouldn't go back to limited primaries.

There is a video on the page I posted that outlines what you need to do. Create your partitions. Install a single WinXP. Copy the partition to unallocated space, multiple times. Set up Boot menus (called Boot Edit).

I've tried to do this (albeit with just 4 primary drives) using Norton Partition Magic, but it only boots from the first primary drive.  When I use PQBOOT to change the active drive and then boot from it, it says 'Operating System Not Found'  Do you have any experience with PM?  If so, should what I did have worked?  

Dirk B wrote on Mar 21^st, 2009 at 12:51pm:

If so, should what I did have worked?

Yes. Before BING I used pqboot and it worked well. 'Operating System Not Found' suggests the OS hasn't been set active and that is what pqboot is supposed to do. When you look with PM, is the chosen OS "active"?


Edit.... Are you referring to booting an OS from the second HD? pqboot can't do that. PM either.

I'm finding this thread very interesting, although I've never heard of BootIt NG.

But while reading about multiple OS's on a single drive, I'm reminded of years ago when I tried that myself.  One day that HD crashed and I lost two OS's and all the associated files, not just one OS.

Since then, I take a more "Old School" approach to running multiple OS's.
On both of my computers, an OLD one and a NEW one, I can get into the BIOS boot menu by just tapping the F11 key during boot-up.  It looks something like this:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g90/DrWho1943/BootScreenF11.jpg

I'm currently running two Maxtor 160 gig SATA2 drives for Vista Ult. and Win-7 and a Maxtor 200 gig SATA2 for XP-Pro.   Each drive is backed up by Ghost, to another drive, so if one drive shoots craps, I have a backup that's easily restored to a new drive.   My main drive, my XP drive, is also backed up to a bootable DVD, for Off-Site storage.

NO WAY in this lifetime, would I ever put all my eggs in one basket.
Every HD will fail !   The question is not IF but when and we never know when.  

Just a thought.

Shadow  8-)

@ Rad


Rad wrote on Mar 21^st, 2009 at 12:31pm:

Does BING have good imaging capabilities?

Yes, image and restore from the boot disk (Floppy, CD or USB) or from BING installed on the HD. Validate function is present too. You can also do partition clones but not whole HD clones.

Until about a year ago all TeraByte Unlimited imaging products made compatible images. They could restore images made by each other. A year ago, version 2 of IFW, IFD, IFL was released and these images aren't compatible with BING images. No big deal but we are waiting for ver 2 BING. The version 2 products are faster than ver 1.

Unlike Partition Magic, BING is able to work with 2048 sector offset partitions as well as our familiar cylinder aligned partitions. BING contains a BCD Edit tool to fix Vista if you have a boot problem. There is a tool to zero the diskID which is handy if you have drive letter issues after cloning an OS.

When multi-booting, you can choose from a Boot Menu at startup or you can choose the next item to boot by double clicking a shortcut in Windows. An OS on any HD can be booted. DOS can be booted from a partition anywhere on the HD. The 2 or 8 GB limit doesn't apply.

The unlimited primary partitions ability is interesting. Over 200 primaries are supported. Partition data is stored in other sectors of Track 0, beyond the standard MBR. However, when an item is booted you can still only have up to 4 primary partitions in the standard LBA-0 partition table. When you set up the partition table for a boot item you would select the OS partition and any data partitions that you want to be seen when the OS has booted. In Disk Management, all other partitions are shown as Unallocated Space so Disk Management must not be used for partitioning when unlimited primaries are in use. If you desire, you can have several Extended Partitions but only one can be present in a boot item's quota of up to 4 primary partitions.

And BING fits on a floppy.

I, too, am a fan of BootIt-NG.  Brian's given a good description of its capabilities.  I began using it about 9 yrs ago when I was looking for a boot manager that would support LBA booting of partitions beyond the then-new 8-GB barrier.  (It's worked so well that I must confess I had not even paid any attention to Terabyte's version 2 stuff until Brian enlightened me to the scope of the improvements.)

BootIt-NG is a combination of Terabyte's boot manager, partition manager, and partition imager, all rolled into a single self-booting floppy!  At $35, you won't find a better value anywhere, especially when the competition often charges twice that much for just one of those three utilities.


Rad wrote: "Does BING have good imaging capabilities? Basic only?"

Depends on what you mean by basic.  Everything Terabyte does is done conservatively, which makes it rock solid and reliable but sometimes that means things are left out.  For instance, the partitioner will format FAT32 and linux partitions, but not NTFS.  Consider that NTFS is a proprietary format, for which Microsoft has never actually released the specs.  To guarantee you get an error-free format, BING will create the partition but expects you to use a Microsoft tool to actually format the file system.

Terabyte's v1 products would only clone/restore to partitions of the same size as the original, forcing you to deal with partition resizing and cloning as two separate tasks.  The v2 products can do both together, so I guess David (the developer) now feels he doesn't need to take such a conservative approach.

And talk about conservative... he spent 10 yrs tweaking version 1 (and all have been free upgrades, I might add), while Ghost has been through... how many versions?

OTOH, while some folks here have spent countless hours customizing special Ghost 2003 boot disks, BootIt-NG has for some time included built-in support for numerous enhancements like USB, NTFS aligned, and 2048-aligned partitions.


Brian wrote: "BING contains a BCD Edit tool to fix Vista if you have a boot problem."

IMHO, BING's BCD editor is also much easier to use than most alternatives, and easily fixes up what Ghost 2003 is incapable of handling.  There have been questions about Ghost 2003's compatibility with Vista in other threads.  Even though Ghost 2003 doesn't support Vista, I can use it to image/clone a Vista OS partition, then use BING's BCD editor, and the clone works fine.


Brian wrote: "DOS can be booted from a partition anywhere on the HD. The 2 or 8 GB limit doesn't apply."

For the sake of accuracy, that depends on the DOS version.  MS-DOS 6.22, Microsoft's last official DOS version, did not know LBA addressing, so cannot see anything beyond the first 8 GB of the disk.  DOS 7.1 (the version underlying Windows 98SE but never separately released) understood LBA, so isn't bound by the 8 GB limit--or even the 137 GB limit, for that matter.  Other DOS variants, such as later versions of DR-DOS, FreeDOS, and Dell's DRMK are also not constrained.

Well, fact that both Brian & Dan are fans, means I'm interested. Been looking for an alternative to Ghost, since I've had a few problems with it not creating an image (tho never with it not restoring, which would be a much nastier problem).

For some reason NG14 has been getting stuck at 5% calculating time to image (C drive to external USB) .. resulting destination folder on external drive containing 0 bytes (nada). No disk-activity .. no CPU usage.

Can't even cancel back-up job .. have to reboot to clear it.

I've always been able to resolve my NG14 probs by uninstalling, running the Norton Removal Tool and re-installing. I suspect the problem is due to a conflict with some other software on my laptop. But I've had to do the uninstall/reinstall deal twice now (2nd time just last night). This suks due to all the req'd reboots.

I like that Terabyte has been in biz ~ a decade, so no new-comer to the imaging world. And I like that Dan says:


Quote:

Everything Terabyte does is done conservatively, which makes it rock solid and reliable

since reliability is most important to me. And I especially like that I can *create* an image from bootable media .. which I can't do with NG14.

I really don't like that NG14 won't let me create an image from bootable media.

I tried TrueImage Home 2009, but those imaging operations reported as 'failed'. Lotsa disk activity to start, but ultimately 0 bytes in destination folder.

Thanks for sharing. Are you guys using this as your *primary* imaging utility?

Brian wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2009 at 2:46pm:

No big deal but we are waiting for ver 2 BING. The version 2 products are faster than ver 1.

What's the skinny with BING.2? Coming soon?

What other products combine boot mgr with partitioning + imaging? Paragon? Acronis?


Quote:

And BING fits on a floppy.

All 3 utilities, or just the imaging part?

What's the procedure to create a bootable CD? (Nevermind. I see on the PDF they use make disk. I prolly create a *.iso and burn using Nero.)

Guess my last question would be .. do you see any problem installing BING alongside NG14?

If I am primarily interested in imaging, should I go with one of the other products, such as IFW or IFD?

What's the diff between these products and the imaging utilty that comes with BING?

If I have GRUB/Ubuntu already installed as multi-boot, do you forsee problem?

would be happy to just make a bootable CD and use BING's imaging feature that way .. if possible.

Why would somebody need more than 4 primary partitions? .. since Windows can boot from extended/logical drives.

How about Daemon Tools, which I use? Any conflicts there?

okay, i created a bing boot cd from *.iso (using nero) no problem.

cd booted fine.

i did NOT install to hard drive, cuz i'm nervous about already having GRUB/ubuntu installed.

on subsequent screen after cancelling out of install/setup, i see:

*settings
*partition work
*resume (which takes you back to previous screen)
*backup
*restore
*help
*reboot

in Settings, i see (among other things) that usb 2.0 sppt is enabled, which i think i want cuz i want to image my c drive (laptop has c, d,f) to external usb.

I would kinda like 'Full Partition List' and 'Use Volume Labels' both enabled, but they are not. Would this help? How to enable on pre-burned CD?

i clicked backup and see HD0 and HD1 both available to be selected (checkmark boxes not grayed out)

if i select neither HD0 nor HD1 and proceed, it instantly reports operation completed successfully.

if i select (put check-mark in box) HD0 and proceed, it instantly says 'The backup operation of HD0 failed'

i'm guessing HD0 = internal laptop and HD1 = external USB.

? help?

Rad,

I'll address your other questions later. It's fortunate that you haven't yet installed it to the HD as it will wipe out grub. When you eventually decide to install it to the HD, this is how you fix grub...

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=231

In Partition Work, look at the partitions in HD 0 and HD 1 to see which drive is which. Usually HD 0 is your internal HD but sometimes a USB drive becomes HD 0.

This is how you create/restore images...


Quote:

Create a compressed partition image 1 On the desktop, click Partition Work. 2 In the Partitions list, select the partition or volume that you want to create a compressed image of, and then click Image under Actions. 3 In the Image dialog box, click Create Image to create a new image, and then click OK. At the bottom of the Work with Partitions window, BootIt NG displays the Paste Pending for Image Create message. 4 In the Partitions list, click the free-space entry, CD/DVD R/RW drive, NTFS or FAT/FAT32 partition or volume where you want to paste the copied partition image, and then click Paste under Actions. If you are pasting to a free-space volume and you use the same extended partition with DOS/Win9x/WinME then, for correct operation of the OS, you must ensure that the last volume in the extended partition is supported by the OS - i.e. FAT or FAT32. DVD-RW discs must be new or fully blanked (not quick blanked) or the write process will fail. 5 Do one of the following: • If you are pasting to a free-space entry, in the Paste Image dialog box under Partition Information, type the Name of the partition that you want to create. • If you are pasting to a CD or DVD drive, the image will span as many disks as needed. • If you are pasting to an NTFS or FAT/FAT32 partition or volume, in the Save As dialog box under File Name, type the name of the file to be created. This name must be 8 or less characters with no spaces. • If you are pasting to an NTFS or FAT/FAT32 partition or volume, BootIt NG lets you adjust the file size being created so that you can copy the image files to a CD or DVD using another program. If you don’t plan on copying the image files to a CD or DVD, then it's best to limit the image files to 2 GB because 4 GB is only valid with certain operating systems such as Windows NT, 2000, XP, and 2003. 6 When BootIt NG asks if you want a validation, click Yes or No. If you click Yes with the Byte for Byte check box selected, BootIt NG rereads all of the source data again and compares it with the compressed image; otherwise, BootIt NG performs a normal Validation to ensure that the new file is valid (and that the crc/checksum matches). 7 Click OK. Restore a compressed partition image from a file 1 On the desktop, click Partition Work. 2 In the Partitions list, select the location of the compressed partition or volume (or CD/DVD drive) that you want to restore, and then click Image under Actions. If you are restoring from a CD, DVD, or image partition type, BootIt NG displays the Image Pending for Restore message and you can skip to step 5. 3 In the Image dialog box, click Restore from file to restore an existing image from a file, and then click OK. 4 In the Open dialog box, type the File Name of the image file to be restored, and then click OK. 5 In the Partitions list, click the free-space block or an existing partition large enough to contain the restored image, and then click Paste under Actions. To see the exact required size, while the Paste Pending for Image Restore message is displayed, press and hold down both the Ctrl key and the Shift key. 6 If overwriting a partition, BootIt NG asks if you would like to validate the image; this is used to ensure that the image crc/checksum is valid. (If the process aborts on the actual restore, the partition boot sector is cleared.)

Rad,

If you don't plan to use the boot manager functions, BING doesn't need to be installed. Everything else can be done from the CD. You can continue to use Ghost 14 whether BING is installed to the HD or not.

I prefer IFW/IFD (version 2) over BING for my imaging. They are faster and I like imaging from Windows with IFW. I know you prefer imaging from a boot disk so IFD would suit you.

BING costs $35 but if you buy the "Bundle" for $50 you get BING, IFW, IFD, IFL and TBOSDT. I use the lot.

I wouldn't hold my breath for ver 2 BING. It could be a long way in the future. No announcements have been made.


Quote:

in Settings, i see (among other things) that usb 2.0 sppt is enabled

Most people find USB 2 works better if this is not ticked. I'm surprised yours is ticked. The default is not ticked. You probably chose this option when you created the ISO. It's only for those BIOS that don't work well with USB 2.

yeah, i ticked usb2 when creating the iso, cuz i thot i needed that, cuz of my external usb drive. guess i didn't need.

so you like ifw better. hmmm.

i have 30 gigs on a 40 gig c drive/partition, so speed is an issue.

what about conflicts between ng14 and ifw installed on same system?

are you implying that ifw does not let you create images using boot cd?

thanks for the info.

Rad,

You can make a CD that doesn't have the "install" menu or the Boot Manager functions. It's probably an easier CD to use as there are less menu choices when it boots.


Quote:

double click makedisk.exe, next dot in I accept the agreement, next no tick for Registration, next dot in Mouse Support Enabled, next dot in VESA Video, next dot in Partition Work (Don't put a dot in Normal), next don't choose any Default Device Options, next leave Registration strings blank, next select your CD burner drive letter (you can use a CD-RW or a CD-R disc) Finish

Rad wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 6:54pm:

what about conflicts between ng14 and ifw installed on same system?

Don't know for sure but I'll bet they work OK together.


Rad wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 6:54pm:

are you implying that ifw does not let you create images using boot cd?

IFW is strictly a Windows app. Its images are restored by IFD or IFL. IFD and IFL can create and restore images from their boot disks. CD or USB flash drives. Each works with your installed Windows and Linux OS.

IFW images can be restored by IFW in BartPE or VistaPE. I'm pretty sure I've restored IFW images from the Ghost 14 recovery CD (VistaPE based).

This is how you can use a Ghost 14 CD to restore an IFW image.


Quote:

Click Analyze from the left menu. Click "Explore My Computer". Click on the "File" pull down menu. Click on "Open". Click Computer on the left. Double Click your drive. Under "Files of type" at the bottom choose "All Files (*.*)". Navigate to imagew.exe (In your C: drive or on a USB stick) Now RIGHT CLICK on imagew.exe and select "Run as Administrator" etc

Brian wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 7:00pm:

IFW is strictly a Windows app. Its images are restored by IFD or IFL.

I was influenced by your preference for IfW, given you have much firsthand experience with these apps. So I installed IfW and created a backup of my C drive on external USB (FAT32).

The installation of IfW has you make/create an IfD boot CD. Which I did. While config'ing the image, I made the sections 2-gigs each, cuz (IIRC) DOS can't see files bigger than  2 gigs .. no?

I am very antsy about the idea of restoring an IfW image with NG14 .. tho, I guess, if it doesn't work, I could always repeat with IfD.

What size do you make you make your IfW images? 2GB? 4GB?

If 4GB, what app do you use to restore them?

So in your opinion, BING is the best boot manager out there?

It took 52 mins to create an image that totals 17.6 gigs (from 30 GB source partition). Does that sound right? Think I enabled verify .. as I normally do 1st go-round. Ghost normally takes half that time.

Rad in Seamonkey

@ Spanky

I was just messing around when I did the Ghost 14 thing. But I'd have no hesitation in using the Ghost 14 CD if I couldn't find my IFD CD. I restore IFW images from IFD. IFD is not bound by 4 GB files if you use NTFS partitions. I don't use FAT32 partitions and I make all my images as single files.

I just created and validated a 9 GB image in 9 minutes and I've been told my computer is slow. It's a 2 year old Pentium D. But I was writing the image to a second HD. If it had been to a USB external HD it would have taken twice as long. Still, your time sounds prolonged although your Ghost time is excellent. Did you use Standard compression? Higher compression levels are too slow. Did it hang on PhyLock?

IFD will restore any size images. At times it doesn't play well with some USB HDs and can be slow. If that's the case, use an IFL CD. It works well with all USB HDs and the IFL GUI is almost identical to IFD.


Spanky wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2009 at 10:03pm:

So in your opinion, BING is the best boot manager out there?

The only other one I've used is Boot Magic. It's like a toy compared with BING. I started using BING when I was booting OS from logical volumes (I was using Dan's guide). Much later I started using unlimited primaries. It's personal preference but I found the latter method faster to set up.


Edit:...   Did you create your image from Windows or IFD?

from windows.

default compression.  the ifw image is slightly smaller than my ghost image.

laptop source. laptop drives are slower than desktop. 1.5ghz celeron, 4 year old laptop with 1 year old hard drive. 2 gb ram.

i've used boot magic too. have u heard of system commander? i think that's its name.

how does ifd handle such big image files?

Dan has reviews of several boot managers on this page.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/notes.htm

I haven't used the other ones.

Your Ghost time, is that Ghost 14?

yeah.

Rad,

IFW took 9 minutes to image and validate my partition.

Drive Snapshot, which I think is the fastest imaging app of them all, took 7 1/2 minutes.

Ghost 14 took 4 minutes. I was surprised.

4 mins, wow.

did it also validate?

wonder why such a dramatic difference.

i'm thinking maybe it's method of validation is different.

most of the time, if nothing changes (no updates to ghost or no disk-config changes), i don't validate.

Rad wrote: "Are you guys using this as your *primary* imaging utility?"

Depending on the task, I've been using either Ghost 2003 or BING 1.x.  Due to its flexibility, I prefer Ghost 2003 over BING most of the time, and use it to backup my own systems.  I'll use BING when it's absolutely crucial to get a reliable image in one try, such as before working on a non-booting drive that is about to fail at any minute.

A month or two ago, I began also using IFW 2.  As you may recall, I have a philosophical aversion to imaging an actively running Windows partition, so only use IFW to image other partitions or external drives.  It's come in handy when imaging, say, laptop drives before doing major work on them.  I can drop the drive in an external case and use IFW from my desktop, which is much faster than imaging to usb from BING or Ghost 2003, and avoids any usb hassles.  And I always split images into 2GB chunks--that way, I can always copy them to FAT32 or DVD if I want.


Rad wrote: "i ticked usb2 when creating the iso, cuz i thot i needed that, cuz of my external usb drive."

As Brian said, you normally want to leave that unticked unless you need it.  Bios support for usb is variable, and you don't want BING's usb driver to battle with a bios driver.  So you'd normally leave that BING option unticked, then see in Partition Work whether BING sees the usb drive.  If it does, your bios supports usb, so leave as is.  If you don't see the usb drive, then go to Settings and tick it, then back into Partition Work and it should then see the drive.


Rad wrote: "So in your opinion, BING is the best boot manager out there?"

I've tested a number of boot managers, and IME BING is the best.

IMHO, second best is the freeware XOSL.  When setting up multiboot systems for clients, I use BING if they're agreeable to spending the $35.  If not, I use GParted to do the partition work and XOSL for the boot manager.  (I've setup a lot of dualboots in the past couple years because clients get new machines with Vista and want to dualboot XP.)

I don't use linux (much*), but if you're looking to multiboot one or more linux OS's, then I'd say grub is probably second best.  (XOSL can boot linux partitions, but has some limitations.)


Rad wrote: "Why would somebody need more than 4 primary partitions? .. since Windows can boot from extended/logical drives."

Using BING's unlimited primaries makes it extremely easy to setup a multiboot with several bootable partitions.  However, unlimited primaries is a proprietary option, so as Brian said, you have to be careful when using non-Terabyte partitioning or imaging tools.  Since I don't use Terabyte exclusively, I prefer to not use unlimited primaries and instead boot Windows from logical partitions.

OTOH, I'm finding less need to have more than 4 primaries anyway.  I don't multiboot as many partitions as I used to because I'm using virtualization for many tasks that used to require multibooting.


* (I only dabble a bit in linux, so have Slackware and Ubuntu installed in virtual machines.  I found that when I had it installed in a real multibooted partition I never got around to booting into it enough to get used to it.)

Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 24^th, 2009 at 9:15pm:

I don't multiboot as many partitions as I used to because I'm using virtualization for many tasks that used to require multibooting.

Thanks, Dan. Are you using VMWare Player? Workstation? Or something else.

http://www.vmware.com/products/player/


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 24^th, 2009 at 9:15pm:

I found that when I had it installed in a real multibooted partition I never got around to booting into it enough to get used to it.

Same here.

Which virtualization file did you choose for Ubuntu? Seems like there's so many, I can't choose. You're using the new 8.10 Intrepid Ibex?


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 24^th, 2009 at 9:15pm:

so have Slackware

Heard Slackware was gnarly .. no? Very cool, tho. One of the cooler Linux distros.

btw - you may find it easier to highlight the quote and click the 'Mark & Quote' link.

I use both Microsoft VirtualPC and Sun xVM VirtualBox.

I really like VPC for most tasks as it's user interface is far and away the easiest and most convenient to use, but it doesn't support usb devices.  You can use a usb kybd or mouse because those are virtualized as common ps2 devices inside the virtual machine, and you can access usb drives if you network or share them from the host system.  But in those cases, VPC isn't virtualizing them as usb devices inside the vm.  If you need to connect some other kind of usb device, such as a scanner, VPC can't do it.

When I want usb support, I'm now using VBox.  I used to use a combination of VMware Server and VMware Player, with Server installed on an alternate multibooted partition and Player installed in my main OS.  Player cannot create a vm so I needed Server, but Server refused to coexist with VPC in my main OS.  Server is also very heavy on the system resources, and I didn't like the fact it insisted on always running in the background even when I wasn't using it, so I didn't really want Server on my main OS anyway.  So to create a vm, I had to reboot into the alternate partition and create the vm with Server, then I could play that vm in my main OS with Player.  Very cumbersome.

But I lumbered along that way for a couple years waiting for something better to come along.  I'd tried VBox a few times in the past, but it wasn't ready for primetime until this year.  With the release of version 2, I finally decided to dump VMware and switch to VBox whenever I need usb support.  (That also eliminated one of my multiboot partitions, which had been solely dedicated to VMware Server.)

I was running ubuntu 6.06 in VMware, but with the switch to VBox I just installed 8.10 a couple weeks ago.  (FWIW, I couldn't install 8.10 in VPC for some reason... but I didn't try real hard.)


Rad wrote: "Heard Slackware was gnarly .. no?"

Um, I guess I don't know.  I'm using an old version, command-line only, no gui.  I had originally used it years ago on an old 486 that I was using as an Apache webserver to develop webpages (cgi, server-side includes, etc).  I migrated that to VPC several years ago and retired the 486.  But I now run Apache in Windows, so hardly use the Slackware vm anymore.


Rad wrote: "you may find it easier to highlight the quote and click the 'Mark & Quote' link."

Personal preference, I guess.  I normally open two windows, one to view the thread and one to reply, so it's simple to just cut-and-paste between the windows.  (I like to scroll back and forth in the thread while I'm writing the reply to remind myself of what others have said.)

Does it make it harder to read my replies, or would it be easier on others to use 'Mark & Quote' for the sake of consistency?

Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 25^th, 2009 at 5:56am:

I use both Microsoft VirtualPC and Sun xVM VirtualBox.

why not vmware? aren't they de facto virtualizer king? free.


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 25^th, 2009 at 5:56am:

Does it make it harder to read my replies, or would it be easier on others to use 'Mark & Quote' for the sake of consistency?

no, your way is fine. i just wanna make sure you know about the feature. convenience.

"why not vmware?"

As stated in my last post, it's too cumbersome.  VMware Player can only play existing vms, it cannot be used to create or edit them.  VMware Server will create/edit, but doesn't play nice with the other guys around.  It's very heavy on system resources and wants to take over the host machine and run in the background all the time.  Plus, half the time it didn't start up correctly (at least, on my machines)--I frequently had to go into Windows Services and restart one of the VMware services that was supposed to start on bootup.

I have a comparison on my "Introduction to VirtualPC" webpage.  A more up-to-date comparison with VirtualPC 2007 and VMware Player 2 would be a bit different, but mostly the same.  Microsoft's VirtualPC is much too convenient and easy not to use, so VMware has to coexist with that or it doesn't stay on my main OS.  Server didn't, so got relegated to an alternate multiboot partition.  The only reason I kept VMware around was for when I needed a vm that could handle a usb device (other than mouse/keyboard/hard drives).

VirtualBox is not perfect and not as convenient to use as VPC, but as of this year it has improved enough that it's replaced VMware when I need usb support.

BTW, all four of the products I've mentioned here are free.

In another thread, Dan mentioned Steve Gibson's weekly "Security Now" netcasts. His latest netcast, episode #188 (March 5), has a few pages on BING and IFW/IFD.

http://www.grc.com/securitynow.htm

I downloaded the pdf and the pages are 29 to 31.

Here's a little from that page:


Quote:

So I run a Cleanup. And it'll find and discard a whole bunch of stuff, and also offer to compress files that haven't been used for a long time to sort of keep them in a smaller storage form. Then after all that, that is, after deleting all this stuff - oh, also empty your trash, if you use trash and have a trash can. Then basically get rid of all the junk that you really don't need to keep around. Maybe look at your desktop and delete, take that opportunity to do a little bit of spring cleaning. And then, finally, do a defrag to sort of get everything in nice shape. And then take an image of that. Which is the - that's sort of the routine I go through whenever I'm doing an image. Sort of get things shipshape before you take a snapshot. And use a program like Drive Snapshot, which I really recommend for less high-end users, or this Image for Windows, DOS, or Linux from Paul Terrell. He's at TeraByte, by the way, TeraByte. And I recommend his stuff without hesitation.

Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 25^th, 2009 at 5:19pm:

As stated in my last post, it's too cumbersome.VMware Player can only play existing vms, it cannot be used to create or edit them.

Kinda weird to hear somebody say that something else is MORE cumbersome than a Microsoft product .. but I checked file sizes and VirtualPC = ~30MB, while VMWare Player = 50MB.

seems vpc does not sppt wxp home

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/downloads/virtualpc/default.mspx

@ Rad

Steve Gibson wrote..

Quote:

or this Image for Windows, DOS, or Linux from Paul Terrell. He's at TeraByte, by the way, TeraByte. And I recommend his stuff without hesitation.

I hope this doesn't shake our confidence in Steve Gibson but Paul Terrell doesn't work at TeraByte Unlimited.

Rad wrote: "seems vpc does not sppt wxp home"

It works fine on a XP Home host.  It's just not officially supported... though I don't know what that means because it's not like Microsoft is going to give you any support anyway.  It's a free product, and if you need help you don't call Microsoft, you visit the VirtualPC newsgroup.


Rad wrote: "Kinda weird to hear somebody say that something else is MORE cumbersome than a Microsoft product"

Well, maybe because it's not a true "Microsoft product" at heart.  VirtualPC was really developed by Connectix, from whom Microsoft bought it in 2003.  It doesn't seem to have changed very much since then--maybe there's not a lot of incentive since MS turned around and released it for free?

The story I've heard is that MS was frustrated with corporate IT folks who were reluctant to move their shops to XP because they had a huge investment in custom developed NT applications.  So MS looked around and bought VirtualPC from Connectix so they could tell the corporate folks, "See? You can upgrade to XP and we'll give you this VirtualPC thing so you don't have to get rid of your NT stuff."  

If it was being used as a carrot, perhaps that played into the decision to make it free.

And the conspiracy theorist in me wonders if that is why Microsoft has never added USB support--that was never part of their intended purpose for buying VirtualPC in the first place.


Brian wrote: "I hope this doesn't shake our confidence in Steve Gibson but Paul Terrell doesn't work at TeraByte Unlimited."

Yeah, that startled me when I listened to the netcast!

Google says Paul Terrell is the founder of the 'Byte Shop' chain of computer stores back in the 80's.  (I remember those!)  I guess maybe Steve thought that evolved into 'TeraByte Unlimited'.

Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 28^th, 2009 at 5:31am:

It works fine on a XP Home host.

Dang. I just deleted the download from my system.


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 28^th, 2009 at 5:31am:

maybe because it's not a true "Microsoft product" at heart.

Okay, that makes sense. I see what you're saying.


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 28^th, 2009 at 5:31am:

I guess maybe Steve thought that evolved into 'TeraByte Unlimited'.

That would be a LOT of Byte shops. =)

Rad wrote: "Dang. I just deleted the download from my system."

Dont' knock yourself out.  You're looking to run ubuntu.  I made an attempt to install ubuntu in VirtualPC, but it didn't work for some reason.  (I'm running ubuntu in VirtualBox.)


Dan wrote: "I guess maybe Steve thought that evolved into 'TeraByte Unlimited'."
Rad wrote: "That would be a LOT of Byte shops. =)  "

LOL!

Given Steve's background, I wouldn't be surprised if he had personally met Terrell at some point.  Wikipedia says Terrell was in Mountain View and his 'Byte Shop' chain flourished throughout Silicon Valley in the late-70's and 80's.  Steve grew up just a few miles from there (San Mateo, IIRC) and was in high school or college around that time.

Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 28^th, 2009 at 10:05pm:

Dont' knock yourself out.You're looking to run ubuntu.I made an attempt to install ubuntu in VirtualPC, but it didn't work for some reason.

I am using VMware Player, which seems to be working fine. Looking fwd to new 9.04 (Jaunty Jackalope), which is scheduled to be released in ~3 weeks.


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 28^th, 2009 at 10:05pm:

Dan wrote: "I guess maybe Steve thought that evolved into 'TeraByte Unlimited'." Rad wrote: "That would be a LOT of Byte shops. =)" LOL!

Glad you liked my humor.  :)