Hello,

I've been using Ghost 12 and an external USB-2 HDD for the last 2.5 years to back up my Vista PC.  Ghost is a terriffic backup program and has saved me many times from losses, usually caused by me!  I've just ordered a new Dell PC with Windows 7.  When I started to order Ghost 14 to go with the new PC, I noticed that there is no mention on Symantec's web page that Ghost 14 supports Win7 PC's.  Does anyone know if it does . . . or if maybe I can keep using my old Ghost 12?  If neither will give me what I need, can anyone recommend a good alternative for a backup program which supports Win7, hopefully using software written for a 64-bit PC??

Sort of on that topic, while I was looking for more information Ghost 14 I came across a thread in which one fellow stated that Symantec no longer sells software, rather they sell 1 year licenses to their products.  In other words, I could buy Ghost 14 now, then a year from now it would stop working until I paid another "gouge" to Symentec.  Is this true or did I just happen to read a thread by someone who didn't know what he was talking about?  FWIW, I should have saved a link to that thread, but unfortunately I didn't.   :(

Thanks in advance,
Bill

I'm using Ghost 14 with Windows 7.  It complained some during the install, and I had a few hiccups during the first couple backups, but no error messages now, and my backups verify ok.

Ghost 15 is "supposed" to be released sometime this month, and will be certified for Windows 7.

As far as Symantec no longer selling software, my guess is the thread was talking about Norton AntiVirus or Norton Internet Security.  Those products only work for one year, and you have to renew your subscription to continue.  Not sure if that is a trend with other products.  Even Microsoft has been mentioned as wanting to go to an annual license strategy for Office, so who knows.

There is a cutoff period when you can no longer get (or expect) updates to the software or support.  I'm not sure if Ghost 12 still qualifies for updates and/or tech support or not.  I think you can get free chat-support for Ghost 14, but not Ghost 12; I could be wrong.

John - thanks for the information.  I'll watch for Ghost 15, and in the meantime will probably try out some of the other programs out there.  For instance, I've read that Acronis Backup 2010 supports Win7 and is supposed to be a very powerful backup program.  I saw on Amazon that a number of people had rated it, about half raved about it and the other half cursed it.  Oh well, there's a trial version that I can play with before making the decision to get that program or wait for Ghost 15.

The thread I read about yearly license fees stated that ALL Symantec software would start charging yearly for licenses.  If that happens, I predict that people will start taking a look at other products and that will probably be the end of Symentec.  Let's hope that doesn't happen!

- Bill

Bill Mullin wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 6:15pm:

and in the meantime will probably try out some of the other programs out there.

Bill,

Have a look at Image for Windows. There is a 30 day trial.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-windows.htm

Brian wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 6:21pm:

Have a look at Image for Windows. There is a 30 day trial.

The description doesn't say anything about being able to do scheduled full backups, additionally there is nothing about incremental backups.  Since scheduled full & incremental backups is what I've been doing with Ghost 12, I'd sorta like to not have to change my routines.    ::)

Thanks, Bill

I think IFW is the fanciest backup program around. It does double what the others can do. Scheduled full and differential backups is kids stuff. What about scheduled unattended restores without a boot disk at 3 am? What about restoring images over a wireless network? These examples are something you probably don't want to do but I'm just pointing out features unavailable in other software.

You can image from Windows or a boot disk (floppy, CD or USB flash drive). IFW comes with Image for DOS, Image for Linux and TBOSDT. All produce interchangeable images.

TBOSDT allows you to restore images to different hardware and to create restores that don't need to use boot disks.

Brian wrote on Nov 9^th, 2009 at 6:51pm:

I think IFW is the fanciest backup program around. It does double what the others can do.

You've made a believer of me, I'll definitely give the trial version of IFW a workout before buying Ghost 15!

Thanks, Bill

@ Brian


Quote:

TBOSDT

Okay---made me look!

*TBOSDT* = TeraByte OS Deployment Tools


Quote:

I think IFW is the fanciest backup program around.

As you probably already know, I don't switch to the newest/greatest software versions just because they're there--I tend to work with an older program until it will not perform what I need it to do! (Same with hardware!!!  My system is vintage 2003'ish!!!  And, of course that's why Ghost 2003 still works so well for me!)

But, when I help friends and family, because Symantec has *abandoned* the retail market with a flexible and updated imaging program that can be DOS based and is compatible with the newer hardware and software available today, I don't have the ability to point them to an available program that is priced at a reasonable level for the average retail user--purchasing a min. of 5 licenses of the Corp version of Ghost is a hard sell, to say the least!

But, TeraByte's imaging software has continued to be developed and has added a lot of new features and capabilities--and the image files being compatible with all its versions (Windows based, DOS based, Linux based), is a giant *plus*!

I've never been happy with Symantec's retail marketing decisions to make their product an either/or choice--either you get Ghost for Windows for the retail masses--and no DOS capabilities--only *hot imaging* from within Windows, or you choose Corp Ghost that has DOS based capabilities.

We may have to create a new imaging tutorial here at Radified that's based on a product that's available *to the masses* for retail purchase/use that has both the *old school* DOS based Ghost abilities--as well as the newer Windows based *hot imaging* features as well--and looks like TeraByte is filling that niche!

Quote:

We may have to create a new imaging tutorial here at Radified that's based on a product that's available *to the masses* for retail purchase/use that has both the *old school* DOS based Ghost abilities--as well as the newer Windows based *hot imaging* features as well

To clarify, the "old school" or "cold" imaging option isn't linked to the use of DOS.  Products like ShadowProtect Desktop provide this capability, using a CD boot disc built on Windows PE.  For newer hardware and/or networked configurations, that's a smart choice because there may not exist DOS-based drivers (e.g., for SAS hard disk drives).

Personally, I don't think I have booted into DOS for about two years, and suspect that the need to do so may never again arise.  I have fond memories of the old DOS days, but they seem so very long ago....

@ Pleonasm


Quote:

a product that's available *to the masses* for retail purchase/use that has both the *old school* DOS based Ghost abilities

Yes, my statement specifically references the dreaded *DOS* based OS--but it was really meant to be a more general statement about being able to use an imaging program *in the same fashion* as the DOS based Ghost programs of *the past*!

As you correctly noted--*old school* = *cold imaging* where you do not create the image of your Windows OS as you are running that Windows OS.  What I was really saying is that I personally do not wish to be forced to use *hot* imaging only--the only Symantec option currently available unless you want to go the expensive Corp Ghost route!

As noted, TeraByte has a *linux* based OS for creating *cold* image files--so don't even have to rely on anything MS, DOS or otherwise, in that case!

ShadowProtect Desktop is probably another imaging program to consider--I haven't looked at it's current capabilities and retail pricing recently--current link(s)?

Ghost 15 is due to be released in the next week or two. It will support cold imaging from the CD. I don't think you will be able to do cold cloning from the CD which is unfortunate. Shadow Protect had a nice cold partition cloning function in ver 3.2 but it was removed in versions 3.3 and onwards. Pleonasm, any idea why it was removed as I don't think a hot cloning function is present?

Bill, you can run IFW in a fairly standard way to create images but some parts of the userguide are heavy going. You don't need to know about the multitude of switches, which most of us will never use. But you will use two or three switches if you run IFW from a command line as this is the fun way to create images. Asking here is an easy way to resolve a problem although TeraByte has a Newsgroup and an impressive series of support web pages and FAQ. TeraByte email support is amazing. An answer usually arrives within an hour.

According to Amazon, Ghost 15 will be released November 16.

I haven't seen any other ads mentioning release dates yet.

Quote:

ShadowProtect Desktop is probably another imaging program to consider--I haven't looked at it's current capabilities and retail pricing recently--current link(s)?

For more information, please see ShadowProtect Desktop.


Quote:

Shadow Protect had a nice cold partition cloning function in ver 3.2 but it was removed in versions 3.3 and onwards

I didn’t realize that fact, Brian. I have never needed anything other a backup/restore of a partition, so I never missed the absence of a “cloning” option.


Quote:

According to Amazon, Ghost 15 will be released November 16.

John, I’m looking forward to seeing what enhancements Symantec has added!

ftp://ftp.symantec.com/public/english_us_canada/products/ghost/15/manuals/ngh_15_user_guide.pdf

Ghost 15 userguide

Bill,

Another plus for IFW. It is licensed for use on three computers.

Brian wrote on Nov 11^th, 2009 at 3:13pm:

Another plus for IFW. It is licensed for use on three computers.

And I have 2, so the extra licensing would be welcome!  Can't do anything yet though as I'm still waiting for the computer which Dell tells me I'll have before 12/1.

Thanks, Bill

Bill,

If you decide to buy IFW instead of Ghost 15, I suggest the "Special Bundle". The extra $ is money well spent. BING is just amazing and you will qualify for Ver 2 BING which will be released in the next year.

@ Brian


Quote:

Another plus for IFW. It is licensed for use on three computers.

Link?  Can't find that benefit mentioned anywhere on their webpage!

Probably right in front of my face--but just can't *see* it!

@ Brian

Found it--buried in the *TeraByte Unlimited (Full-Use) License Agreement*:


Quote:

(c)  PERMITTED END USERS AND COMPUTER SYSTEMS. (i)  Commercial or Organizational Use. If you are a corporation, LLC, or other commercial entity, whether public or private, for profit or not-for-profit, or a government entity, or if the Software is ever used for purposes related to any such commercial or government entity, the permitted Software end users and Computer Systems under this license are, as applicable: (1) Your own employees and in-house contractors, and your in-house Computer Systems owned or controlled by you, (2) A parent organization that has majority ownership or control of your organization (if any), its employees and in-house contractors, and that organization’s in-house Computer Systems owned or controlled by that organization, (3) Your subsidiary organization or organizations (if any), those organizations’ employees and in-house contractors, and those organization’s in-house Computer Systems owned or controlled by those organizations, and (4) Your affiliated organizations (if any; “affiliated organization” means any organization which is under majority control or ownership by the same parent that majority owns or majority controls you), those organizations’ employees and in-house contractors, and those organization’s in-house Computer Systems owned or controlled by those organizations. (ii)  Personal or Home Users.  If you are a real person, and if all Software under this license is used exclusively for personal non-commercial use only, then each licensed copy may be installed on two additional Computer Systems owned or controlled by you, or a member of your immediate family.

@ NightOwl

Sorry to make you do the detective work.

BING now has a three computer license. In March this year it was a two computer license.

Back on topic. Ghost and Win7.

If you install Win7 to unallocated space or let Win7 create the install partition, you will get a 100 MB System Reserved Partition in addition to the Win7 partition. The SRP contains the boot files and is the Active partition.

When we have restored Ghost OS images in the past we have chosen, "Set drive active for booting". Now we must remember to NOT choose this option if there is a SRP. If Win7 becomes the Active partition, it will not boot.

The SRP takes up one of the 4 partition slots in the MBR and may limit future primary partition creation. I can see it causing issues with image restores, especially to new HDs. The SRP can be removed.

Brian wrote on Nov 11^th, 2009 at 10:57pm:

If you install Win7 to unallocated space or let Win7 create the install partition, you will get a 100 MB SRP in addition to the Win7 partition. The SRP contains the boot files and is the Active partition.

I deleted my Vista partition, then booted from the Windows 7 DVD to do a clean Win7 install.  The Win7 created a 10GB Recovery partiton, not 100MB; at least in my case that's what happened.

Another consideration is the Dell Utility Partition which is first.  So in this case, 3 of the partition slots are already used.

Hopefully Ghost 15 will be smart enough to at least give a warning about making the wrong partition active during a restore.

(Off topic, but I was disappointed to again see that Ghost 15 will not perform a complete-copy-the-entire-disk-drive in one operation.  It still, according to the user guide link, makes you copy one partition at a time.  Bad.  That's still a serious limitation in my opinion.  I use offline boot of Paragon Partition Manager for disk copies and partition management.) 

@ John.

10 GB. Wow. What was in there?

I'm disappointed with the userguide instructions for doing a Copy Drive. They are basically unchanged from PowerQuest's Drive Image 7. The precursor to Ghost 9. If you follow the instructions your OS clone will fail to boot. You must clone into unallocated space or into a partition without a drive letter. But hopefully Symantec have changed the code to get around this issue. Both TeraByte IFD/IFL and ShadowProtect have means to get around this problem (via registry edits). Well, ShadowProtect did in ver 3.2 when it had partition cloning.

Inside the Recovery partition (among other folders) is a folder, dell\image\, with just one file, factory.wim, which is 4GB in size, dated 2/11/2007.  I assume the Win7 install found and preserved that file, which is the original Dell factory recovery image.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dell+factory.wim+file

I believe if I had started with a new-blank-unformatted hard drive for the Win7 install, the factory.wim file and the other Dell utility partiion wouldn't be there.

Concerning an "off topic" subtheme in this thread...

In reviewing the Norton Ghost 15.0 User’s Guide (pages 14-15), I am surprised by the few number of significant enhancements to the product.  Overall, it seems more like a “maintenance release” for Windows 7 that a true major version (14 -> 15) upgrade.

Hopefully, Symantec will increase its research & development investments in the product over time?

@ Pleonasm


Quote:

Hopefully, Symantec will increase its research & development investments in the product over time?

Personal opinion--Symantec has abandoned anything that resembles support for a *quality* imaging option for the *retail* market.  The current retail Ghost product has limited capabilities and very poor support!

Seem to be maximizing *profits* and not improving the product!!!  (They can't even update their User Guide to properly explain how to use their product correctly!  See this sample thread, reply #7:   Problems using NG-14 in migrate XP to a new HD


Quote:

For anyone reading, Micfung's problem was caused by cloning to a partition with a drive letter. Ghost 14 can't do this. You must clone to unallocated space or to a partition without a drive letter. Unfortunately this is not discussed in the userguide. Maybe this issue will be changed in Ghost 15.

That problem has been there since *Ghost 9*--and they still haven't addressed it in their User Guide!  I've seen Brian answering questions regarding this problem once or twice per month since *forever*!

Great job Symantec!  Just how much time do they need to *increase its research & development investments in the product*?  Why would they expect *loyalty* from anyone--given the way they treat their customers by ignoring the quality of the product they put out?!

So much for my *soap box* comments  ;) !

NightOwl, I hope you’re wrong that “Symantec has abandoned anything that resembles support for a *quality* imaging option for the *retail* market,” but -- unfortunately -- the data suggest you may be on the mark.

Years ago, “image backup” was a specialty product, primarily known to the “PC intelligentsia.”  Today, however, it has become much more mainstream (almost a “commodity”) and, as a consequence, the competition has increased. I don’t know (but I suspect) that the market share for Ghost has declined as a result, diminishing Symantec’s motivation for R&D investments in the tool.

My own personal perspective is that the image backup products that are primarily targeted to businesses (with a secondary emphasis to consumers) are the ones that are continuing to be enhanced (e.g., Backup Exec System Recovery or ShadowProtect), with others somewhat falling behind.

John. wrote on Nov 11^th, 2009 at 11:16pm:

I deleted my Vista partition, then booted from the Windows 7 DVD to do a clean Win7 install.The Win7 created a 10GB Recovery partiton, not 100MB; at least in my case that's what happened.

No, Win7 didn't create the Recovery partition.  That's a standard feature of Dell's Vista systems, and it was there when Dell shipped the computer to you.  Naturally, any clean install of Windows will leave the Recovery partition there unless you deliberately delete it.

I have a little more information about it here and here.

I've recently examined a few of Dell's Win7 systems and can confirm they are using exactly the same recovery scheme as the Vista systems.

Dan Goodell wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 3:43pm:

No, Win7 didn't create the Recovery partition.That's a standard feature of Dell's Vista systems, and it was there when Dell shipped the computer to you.Naturally, any clean install of Windows will leave the Recovery partition there unless you deliberately delete it.

Dan, thanks for the comments and links info.  I never really paid attention to the Dell Vista Recovery partition (never needed it).

So far, Windows 7 clean install and use has been relatively painless, and overall interface is very familiar to anyone that previously used Vista, along with more polish and features.  Of course I had to re-install my software applications again, but it was a good opportunity to clean house and review needed vs. unneeded.

I did have to restore Vista once (to a separate spare hard drive), and Ghost 14 performed flawlessly, and Vista booted without needing any mbr fixups.  I had forgotten to export some app settings and the only way to retrieve them was to run the app (Picasa) to create/export the backup definitions, then import it into Win7.

I have my own opinions about which features (Copy Disk for one) should be enhanced with Ghost, but I must say that after using many Ghost versions over many years on many pc's, anytime I have needed to restore a partition or file, Ghost has never (knock on wood) failed.  It may not be perfect in features but it is dependable.  (I only create/keep full independent backups.)

There is more competition out there, and for the consumer market, many of the other vendors are concentrating on online backups oriented to music, videos, etc. and other file/folder search features, instead of system-image backups, which can be too complex to restore for some home consumers.

Dan,

I assume Dell Win7 computers don't have the 100 MB System Reserved partition. Is there any advantage in having this partition? I make sure it is not present.

Brian wrote on Nov 12^th, 2009 at 5:35pm:

I assume Dell Win7 computers don't have the 100 MB System Reserved partition. Is there any advantage in having this partition? I make sure it is not present.

Well, now that you mention it, I'd better check again.  Dell's Vista systems have the typical tiny DellUtility partition at the front of the disk.  I took a look at two Dell Win7 machines for customers recently and the partition layout appeared to be identical to the Vista layout.  I had forgotten about Win7's System Reserved partition, so didn't look too closely and just presumed the tiny partition was DellUtility.  I'll be prepping another new Dell/Win7 box for another customer next week, so will take a closer look.

To the best of my knowledge, the System Reserved partition has only two purposes: to allow BitLocker to be used on the Windows partition, and to provide a "safer place" for the Recovery Environment files.  (That's where you get to if you press F8 at boot time and choose "Repair my computer".)

In order to encrypt the Windows partition with BitLocker, you understandably have to have unencrypted access to some place from which you can load the BitLocker driver/program.  IOW, you can't encrypt the entire hard disk ... hence, the minimalist System partition.  In a BitLocker'd system you would begin booting from the unencrypted System partition, it would load the encryption driver, and you'd then have access to the encrypted Boot partition.

The rub is that BitLocker is only available in the Ultimate and Enterprise versions of Windows 7.  So for 99% of us, BitLocker isn't an option--and thus isn't a legitimate excuse to saddle us with a System Reserved partition.

As for the Recovery Environment argument, note that you'll still have a RE with or without a System Reserved partition.  The RE files are put on the System partition, so if you do not have a separate System Reserved partition you can still press F8 and boot into the RE, be the RE files will end up coming from the same partition as Windows.

It's possible the RE might be slightly less vulnerable to corruption or viruses if it's on a different partition--especially when that partition has its drive letter removed (as is the case during a normal Windows 7 bootup).  But I doubt it's really much of an advantage because it's a lot more difficult for a virus to infect the RE than it used to be.  The RE is no longer a bunch of files sitting on your hard drive, it's actually a partition image (another .wim file).  In essence, when you boot the RE I believe you're booting into a virtual drive that is "restored" on demand from the .wim image.  I think it would be pretty difficult to infect the operating system contained in that image.

And of course, for frequenters of this forum the RE is even less useful because we make backup images of our OS ... who needs a RE when we can just restore our OS from a backup image?

So, the advantages of having a System Reserved partition are, IMHO, minor or insignificant, while the disadvantages are:

• it takes up a slot in the partition table,
  
  
• to backup your OS you have to capture two partitions instead of one, and
  
  
• if you restore to a different DiskID or different partition layout it becomes a lot harder to control the drive letter of the Windows partition (because the System partition may want to become "C").
  

Dan,

Many thanks. We are on the same wavelength.

I've installed Win7 (several times) into unallocated space so I could play with the SRP. I've been using the following methods to successfully remove it.

1. Use a VistaPE boot CD to COPY, not move, the contents of the SRP to the Win7 partition. A BartPE CD can be used instead.
From a BING CD, delete the SRP. In View MBR, set the Win7 partition active. Win7 then boots normally.

2. Delete the SRP from a BING CD (it can't be deleted from Windows). In View MBR, set the Win7 partition active. When you try to boot you will see a "BootMGR is missing" message.

Do two repairs from the Win7 DVD. It is only on the second repair that you will get to a large menu where you can choose "Startup Repair". Win7 then boots normally.

It's the 16th, Ghost 15.0 is supposed to be out today - please let me know if/when anyone sees copies for sale.

- Bill

This is interesting - Symantec's web page still has no information about Ghost 15, but there is one seller on eBay that is selling the product.  Click here to see his ad.  FWIW, I was going to send him a message asking if he actually had the software in stock, but in drilling down through his canned answers to questions, I found that he is not accepting questions at this time!

- Bill

@ Bill Mullin

http://shop.symantecstore.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=symnahho&Locale=en_US&ThemeID=106300&Env=BASE&productID=166539400&resid=ptXHLAoHAiwAAAJIV3IAAAAF&rests=1258497128704

http://shop.symantecstore.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=symnahho&Locale=en_US&ThemeID=106300&Env=BASE&productID=168706400&resid=ptXHLAoHAiwAAAJIV3IAAAAF&rests=1258497129481

The Symantec website for Norton Ghost 15 lists this feature...


Quote:

Windows® 7 support including support for Bitlocker™ provides enhanced data protection through drive encryption and integrity checking.

...but the User Guide says...


Quote:

If you use Microsoft's BitLocker Drive Encryption to encrypt the data on a data drive (any drive that does not have the operating system installed on it), be aware that Norton Ghost does not work with locked data drives. Instead, you must unlock the bitlocked drive before you can backup it up.

So, does Symantec support the backup and restoration of an encrypted system drive?  For a non-system drive, is Symantec saying that the drive must first be "mounted" before the backup occurs?

More information on this feature would be appreciated by any in this forum community....

Brian - thanks for the links!  Here's the another one, a $20 saving for those upgrading to 15.0:

http://shop.symantecstore.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?Action=DisplayProductDetailsPage&SiteID=symnahho&Locale=en_US&ThemeID=106300&Env=BASE&productID=168662900&resid=EjE1AQoBAkYAAGY5nUMAAAAv&rests=1258567456634

- Bill

Norton 15 is available today, according to Symantec:

http://www.symantec.com/norton/ghost

Some of the new features:

• NEW! Cold Imaging lets you back up files without installing Ghost.
  
• NEW! Blu-ray Disc support lets you to back up large amounts of data to high-capacity Blu-ray Disc — up to 25 GB per disc (50 GB dual layer).
  
  
• NEW! Windows® 7 support including support for Bitlocker™ provides enhanced data protection through drive encryption and integrity checking.
  
  
• NEW! Symantec ThreatCon integration leverages intelligence from Symantec’s industry-leading security research organization to automatically backup files whenever ThreatCon reaches a specified threat level.
  

I downloaded the trial version of Ghost 15 and have spent the last 4 hours putting it through its paces on my new Win7 PC.  So far it is working great!  The only problem I have is that an ISO file is required in order to make a bootable CD.  The trial version did not include this ISO file, so I can't test this aspect of the software.  If anyone has a link to the ISO file, please post it here.  OR - if you have the file and will make it available for download, I'd greatly appreciate it.  FWIW, I don't think this violates the trial license as the program will still go belly-up in 30 days!   ;D

Thanks, Bill

Dan,

I looked at a Dell Win7 (64 bit) computer today. There was an OEM partition, around 70 MB which I assume is the Dell Utility partition. Next was the Restore partition, around 7 GB, which in Disk Management showed as Active, System. Next was the OS partition. This looks like a backup nightmare with the boot files in a 7 GB partition.

I'm going to clone his HD and experiment with the new HD to see how to safely move the boot files into the Win7 partition. Any suggestions?

OK. It is easy to copy boot files from the Recovery Partition and make the Win7 partition as System, Active.

Brian wrote on Dec 1^st, 2009 at 2:07pm:

It is easy to copy boot files from the Recovery Partition and make the Win7 partition as System, Active

So which files did you copy, Brian?  Was that all it took (that, plus marking the Win7 partition 'active' in the partition table)?  Did you have to edit the BCD store?

BTW, I did take another look at Dell's Win7 configuration and confirmed what you said -- Dell is indeed making the Recovery partition the 'System' partition, although 'C' is the Win7 partition!  So it's not the same way they did their Vista systems, even though the partition sizes and layout appear similar.

Boy, that's really going to mess up a lot of people.  Dell has come up with some real blunders in the last few years when it comes to the design of their factory recovery system, but this one takes the cake.  A lot of tech-savvy users simply blow away the factory recovery partition, figuring they don't need it because they've got their own partition imaging program (Terabyte Image, Ghost, TrueImage, et al).   These are the users who generally know what they're doing around computers, but a lot of them won't realize that was the System partition they blew away.

Even if they notice the split System-Boot partitions, I wonder if it's even going to be enough to backup the pair.  If you're copying to a new disk, or readjusting partition sizes, or any of a number of other actions that may cause the partition signatures to change, Windows has to rebuild the partition signatures.  The System partition normally becomes 'C' by default, not the Win7 partition, and then all he** would break loose.

I suppose it's just a matter of time before we see forelorn visitors wandering into this and the Wilders forums, looking for answers why their time-tested backup/restore technique failed them on their new Dell/Win7 computers.

I tried various methods but this is the easiest. David from TeraByte was most helpful. I'll include small details in case others would like to try.

From Win7, open Regedit, under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, unload BCD00000000 from the registry by highlighting it, click File/Unload Hive, Yes - or the following boot files will be in use and won't copy.

In Disk Management, right click the Recovery Partition, click Change Drive Letter and Paths..., click Add, dot in Assign the following drive letter, OK.

In Folder and search options, View tab, put a dot in "Show hidden files, folders and drives". Also, remove the tick from "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)". OK.

In Computer, Recovery Partition, right click to copy the "Boot" folder and "bootmgr" and paste them into the C: drive. (Copy, not Move these files)

In Folder and search options, View tab, put a tick in "Hide protected operating system files (Recommended)". OK.

In Disk Management, right click the Recovery Partition, click Change Drive Letter and Paths..., click Remove, Yes.
In Disk Management, right click the C: drive, click Mark Partition as Active, Yes.

Restart the computer with a BING CD in the drive. In BING, do a BCD Edit on Win7.

All fixed. Instructions for a BCD Edit are....

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=318

Dan,

TeraByte doesn't like the two partition setup either. He recommends creating an image of the System Reserved Partition or the Recovery Partition, once only. If you have to restore to a new HD, restore the Recovery Partition first (or the SRP) and then the Win7 partition but to use the /ubp switch.

"   /ubp     This option updates any references to the restored partition in the active boot partition on the target drive. This is useful for situations where the boot partition differs from the system partition. However, you typically wouldn't want to use this option if you're creating a copy of an existing partition you want to keep, unless the target drive will be independent of the original drive. For this to be useful, the active boot partition should already be on the target drive or part of the same copy or restore operation."

I don't think Ghost 15 has this option.

@ Brian


Quote:

OK. It is easy to copy boot files from the Recovery Partition and make the Win7 partition as System, Active.

Well....*Yes* and *No*!

Many folks *freak out* as soon as the see:


Quote:

open Regedit, under HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE, unload BCD00000000 from the registry by highlighting it, click File/Unload Hive, Yes

And, if there's more than two steps--that's another *show stopper*  ;) !

Seems like there are more and more *confounding variables* that can create a *gotcha*!

This thread here:  Ghost 2003 and Windows 7/Windows XP Pro Dual Boot problem.  It sent me to this website:  A Guide to the Multiboot Process.  I then started reading about how Vista's (and I assume now Win7's) Master Boot Region (MBR) is laid out here:  Vista's New Partitioning Rules.


Quote:

For nearly 30 years there has been a standard to the way basic partitions have been organised and positioned on the common IDE/SATA hard drive. In coming years the continuing expansion of drive sizes is going to mean a change to hard drive geometry that will force the old standards of partitioning to be updated. Microsoft have agreed to help facilitate this change by making Vista ready for the new drives. Partitions created by Vista are using new rules that are not entirely compatible with all previous versions of Windows or most current third-party tools for partitioning, imaging and cloning. Some third-party vendors are trying to catch up and are releasing “Vista Compatible” versions, but at least two that I know of have been premature in this claim.

The above is the opening paragraph--the rest of the page is very informative and explains more of the issues involved in how the new Microsoft OS's will create boot problems depending on what your setup is and what tools (imaging software) you may use!

It looks like that unless an imaging tool preserves both the *disk ID* and the MBR layout, the new boot files will cause boot failure!

Brian, have you ever noticed if either Ghost or TeraByte's Image for Windows that are certified to work with Vista (and now Win7) have the capability of preserving both the MBR layout and the disk ID if the MBR was originally created by the current Vista (or Win7) partitioning tool, and you have created an image file, and finally you are attempting to restore that image file to a new blank HDD after a HDD failure?

I know that you usually pre-partition your new HDDs with older partitioning tools (or, at least I think I've seen that's your usual way of doing things) so as to not have that newer MBR that Vista's partitioning tool creates--initially that appears to automatically break Vista's and Win7's ability to successfully boot--will *always* have to do some type of boot file repair!

I've never seen a *new* version of PartitionMagic that can create the *new* MBR--do you know if any of the current imaging programs create partition offsets using those new standards?

Have you seen any discussions about this?

@ Dan Goodell

Feel free to jump in here if you have any insights or information!

I wonder at what size HDD these new standards will become mandatory?!

Or, is it going to be a change in the HDD geometry to improve HDD performance--and not so much the HDD size?

@ NightOwl

I think the new imaging apps make a restore failure an unusual event. I recall in the early days of Vista, the Acronis True Image Forum was full of failure stories. Now there are few failures to restore. I mention Acronis TI as it is a very popular app, mainly due to advertising rather than ability. It is very hardware dependent for successful outcomes.

Ghost 15 and the Ver 2 TeraByte products are marketed as Vista/Win7 OK. And they are. I mentioned the /ubp switch for the TeraByte product. I tried a Ghost 15 restore to another HD using the Win7 and the SRP partitions. It worked too.

Having a special Win7 MBR isn't needed. I use BING as a boot manager so my MBR is a TeraByte MBR. I've also installed Win7 into a partition with a Standard MBR and written a Standard MBR to a Win7 HD. Win7 still boots. Apparently some computers do need a special Win7 MBR (none of mine) as TeraByte has recently added a Win7 MBR choice in BING.


Quote:

New option to install Win7 version of MBR instead of Standard MBR. MS tied the MBR to requirements of the kernel loader which means on some systems Win7 won't load using standard MBR code.

The Disk Signature is important. If you change it by editing the MBR bytes or by fdisk /mbr, Win7 fails to boot. But a Repair from the Win7 DVD fixes that. In fact a Repair seems to fix just about everything. I described a method to move the boot files from the SRP to the Win7 partition which only enthusiasts will use. But you can simply delete that partition using a partitioning tool and do two Repairs from the Win7 DVD and the boot issue is fixed.

So things aren't as grim as before. A restored image "always" boots (mine always do) but if it doesn't a Repair will fix it.

A quick comment on the Win7 partitioner which produces 2048 sector aligned partitions. BING can do this too but I don't know if other software can. It doesn't matter if you install Win7 into a 2048 sector aligned partition or a legacy cylinder aligned partition, it still works. But don't let Partition Magic anywhere near 2048 sector aligned partitions. It will offer to correct "errors" and that is the last time Win7 will boot until you correct the partition overlaps with BING.

Brian wrote on Dec 5^th, 2009 at 8:58pm:

But don't let Partition Magic anywhere near 2048 sector aligned partitions. It will offer to correct "errors" and that is the last time Win7 will boot until you correct the partition overlaps with BING.

I quit using Norton Partition Magic several years ago after several issues.  I switched to Paragon Partition Manager and never had a problem.  The current version 10 supports Windows 7 as well.

Just noticed on their website that they are having a "special" this weekend only of $19.95 (normally $39.95). 

By the way, Paragon PM has a feature I call "copy the entire hard drive" all in one operation, which Ghost doesn't have.  Ghost makes the user copy partition by partition which is confusing (and prone to mistakes) for the average user.  When someone purchases a larger hard drive, they want to Boot from a CD, and then copy-the-entire-hard-dirve to the new one, all in one operation.  Paragon does that. 

(I have no affiliation with Paragon.)

@ John.

I haven't used Paragon PM. Can it create and work with 2048 sector aligned partitions?

Brian wrote on Dec 5^th, 2009 at 9:33pm:

Can it create and work with 2048 sector aligned partitions?

I'm not sure.  But I've used PM with Vista to create/delete/resize partitions without any problems.  (I just verified with PTEdit32 that my Win 7 partition is 2048 sector aligned.)

I don't see that sector alignment explicitly mentioned in the PM 10 User Manual, but since it is certified with both Vista and Win 7, I am (hopefully) assuming it does.

In Reply #42 I outlined how to copy the booting files from a Dell's Recovery Partition to the C: drive. The following is a method to remove the SRP (not present in Dell computers) after copying the booting files to the C: drive.

First, we have to unhide the SRP.

In Disk Management, right click the SRP, click Change Drive Letter and Paths..., click Add, dot in Assign the following drive letter, click the drop down arrow and select P ,  click OK.

Start an Administrator mode Command Prompt. To do this, click on the Start button, then All Programs, then Accessories. Right-click on the Command Prompt item and select Run as administrator from the pop-up menu. If a UAC prompt is displayed, click the Yes button.

Unload the BCD registry hive by running the following command:
reg  unload  HKLM\BCD00000000

Copy the bootmgr file from the SRP to the Windows 7 partition.  Run the following command:
robocopy  p:\  c:\  bootmgr

Copy the Boot folder from the SRP to the Windows 7 partition. Run the following command:
robocopy  p:\Boot  C:\Boot  /s

The booting files have now been copied. If you wish to verify that they were copied correctly, run the following command:
dir  c:\  /ah

If the bootmgr file and the Boot folder show up in the list, the procedure was successful.

In Disk Management, right click the SRP, click Change Drive Letter and Paths..., click Remove, Yes. This hides the SRP again.
In Disk Management, right click the C: drive, click Mark Partition as Active, Yes.

Restart the computer with a BING CD in the drive.
In BING (Partition Work), delete the SRP.
In BING, do a BCD Edit on Win7.
http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=318

reboot


Thanks for assistance from TeraByte Support.