Will Ghost 2003 work with SSD's?  I am thinking about getting a SSD.

@ WilliamP

I haven't seen any reports but it should work. However, the restores would not produce a 2 KiB aligned partition which SSDs need for speed.

Does this mean that I would have to Ghost the image to another SSD for everything to work?

@ WilliamP


Quote:

Does this mean that I would have to Ghost the image to another SSD for everything to work?

I think what Brian was saying is that Ghost 2003's built-in tool for restoring an image to a *virgin* unpartitioned/unformatted SSD drive would not create the needed formatted structure that the SSD drive needs.

Using a partitioning/formatting tool ahead of time that can create the needed partition structure with the *2 KiB aligned partition which SSDs need for speed*--then Ghost 2003 would probably restore the *data* to the existing partition structure without a problem--as long as the BIOS presents the SSD as an available mass storage device in DOS so Ghost 2003 can access it properly.

If the drive is already partitioned/formatted with that *2 KiB* structure--then doing only *Partition* restores and not *whole drive* procedures should leave that existing HDD geometry as is.

My existing HD is not partitioned. And I don't know what to use that will format the drive to the 2 KiB  structure.

@ WilliamP


Quote:

My existing HD is not partitioned.

Is your *existing HDD* a SSD HDD?  I think Brian is talking about once you have the SSD.  If you are going to restore an image of your OS that was originally on a *standard* HDD, to the SSD HDD that is new--then the partition geometry using the 2 KiB might not be created during the restore to the SSD.  If you're simply using the SSD to write an image file to for storage--then it's not an issue.

A new SSD HDD would probably come pre-formatted--if it needs that file system geometry--but, now that I'm thinking about it--if folks are going to use SSD and they plan on installing a Win OS--the installation routines are not likely to create a *special* SSD partition/geometry--I'm not knowledgeable enough as to the ins-and-outs of SSD requirements--maybe Brian can enlighten us!

At the present time I have my system on a  regular SATA drive and a Ghost image on another SATA  drive. I am planning to replace my HHD system drive with a SSD. So I am researching what could be problems. I love Ghost 2003 and want to keep it.

I don't have a SSD and I don't really understand the various partition offsets that are being used. I have noticed that many people are using Diskpart to create these offsets.

TeraByte Support has posted several times on this topic and said that creating a 2048 sector aligned partition is what should be done with SSDs. This can be done with BootIt NG.

From the IFW manual...

Align Partitions at 2KiB - This option provides a convenient way to enable 2048 sector alignment for all drives. This is popular with users of SSD type drives. It is the equivalent to enabling the individual overrides Use 2048 Sector Alignment, Align MBR Ending HS, Align MBR HS when Truncated, and disabling Align on End.

I just did a few tests with Ghost 2003 and the results were surprising.

Imaged a 2048 sector aligned partition and restored to the same partition. The 2048 sector alignment was preserved.

Imaged a 2048 sector aligned partition and restored to a new empty HD, no partitions but with a MBR. The 2048 sector alignment was lost and the partition was cylinder aligned.

Imaged a 2048 sector aligned partition and restored to a new HD containing an empty 2048 sector aligned partition. The 2048 sector alignment was preserved.

Edit....  William, which OS are you planning to use?

Edit... NightOwl was correct each time. William, if you restore your current image to a new SSD it will be cylinder aligned. But it is very easy to convert that partition to a 2048 sector aligned partition with BootIt NG.

I am planning to use XP.

William, see my second Edit. I think all should be OK for Ghost 2003.

Thank you all for the help.

Let us know how it goes.
-Curious.

I'm curious too. Also, what is the advantage of using an SSD as opposed to a conventional HDD? (especially with the limited finite write cycles for NVRAM) Offhand I only see an advantage for portable primarily read-only devices (like iPods) that encounter high-shock difficult environmental conditions. Are they that much faster than HDDs?

Thanks to Brian and Rad.  Brian pointed me to this thread because it covers exactly what I want to know....and, it is telling me what I want to hear.  :)  I too love Ghost 2003 and want to keep using it with my aligned SSD.

However when I checked the OCZ support forums (they have great support), I was told just the opposite....that Ghost 2003, ver.793, will not preserve the alignment of the partitions.  See posts # 91 and 92 here:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/showthread.php?54509-CLONE-amp-RESTORE-IMAGE-MY-FOOL-PROOF-VIDEO-GUIDE&p=502422&highlight=#post502422

Brian, have you actually done it in XP??  All I want to do is make a full "disk to image" backup with v.793 and then restore it and keep the alignment?  Should I risk my install and try it?  Why would OCZ think that only the latest Ghost versions will preserve the alignment?  Seems to me that from a simplified perspective, if Ghost 2003 makes an exact image of the entire drive, then it would restore exactly, no?

Are you also saying that it is possible to align an unaligned drive without reformatting/reinstalling using BootIt NG.  I have not heard of that program but that would be awesome.

BTW, I'm aligned at 1024K, not 2048, as per OCZ support.

Extra information:  XP will not install on a previously partitioned drive aligned at anything besides XP's default (whatever that is) UNLESS it is XP SP3.  I kept getting "Disk Read Error" and was forced to abandon the idea of alignment until someone on the OCZ forums discovered that it could be done in XP with SP3.  So on their advice, I created a slipstreamed disc with SP3 and it installed and is aligned.

Then my heart sank when I read that Ghost 2003 would not preserve the alignment.  Ghost is integral to my computer work as I am simply accustomed to feeling superhuman about my computer.  If I try something that doesn't work, so what, I'll just restore to where I was yesterday.

William, here is an OCZ wiki that has instructions for using Diskpart to create an aligned partition. 

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_to_set_up_Windows_on_a_VERTEX

They don't tell you that it won't work on an XP computer though!  You should download a Vista or Win 7 repair disc and enter the command prompt from there to do it, with your SSD connected as a spare drive.   Those discs are downloadable because they don't contain the actual windows install files, just the repair. 

Good Luck!

@ Prozactive, MUCH faster.  I got an OCZ 30gb Vertex drive and even when "not aligned", my programs start lightening fast.  Big difference IMO.

There are some challenges though, so read up if you wanna go there!  ;)

@ 26kick

My tests above were of a WinXP partition. Using Ghost 2003 from a boot CD. The tests show the 2048 sector alignment is preserved as long as you don't restore into unallocated space. Your offset of 1024 kb should be OK. Anything that divides into 2048. eg 512, 256 etc.

I did image to partition so I can't answer for image to disk.

BING can create 2048 sector aligned partitions and can convert a cylinder aligned partition to 2048 sector aligned.

I'm not a Ghost 2003 user. Just a tester. Anything I haven't answered?

Did you use an SP3 version of XP?  If not, I found that XP doesn't work with another alignment.  Is that true?  I think the XP default is 63K?

What is the difference between a sector alignment and cylinder alignment?  Is the sector alignment the one that SSD's like?

Anyway, since I do not have a complete understanding of partition alignment or where it resides, does it make sense then that if I was to do "partition to image" and "image to partition" in order to do my backup, it would be preserved because that alignment is on a lower level?  Whereas the "disk to image"/"image to disk" would be like restoring to unallocated space?  Am I on the right track?  Which one should I use? 

I've always used "disk to image"/"image to disk" because I only ever use the whole disk (not just a partiition of it) for my system OS drive.

Is there a difference between using Ghost from a boot CD and booting to v.793 from a floppy?

And, if by mistake I take the wrong path and restore an image to find that the alignment is not preserved, can I turn to BING to get it back, without reinstalling my OS?  In a way, knowing this would be like a backup for my backup.   ;)

Sorry if I'm a little repetitive and thanks for your answers and patience.

@ 26kick

My WinXP is SP3. I'm not a Ghost 2003 user and I didn't do a Disk to Image. Also, I was using an IDE HD so you should run your own tests to see if my findings apply to your situation. I haven't been able to find an article where there is agreement on the partition offset of a SSD. Apart from the TeraByte statement of 2048 sectors.

Ghost 2003 is 7 years old so you can expect issues with recent hardware and OS. Good luck.

26kick wrote on Mar 26^th, 2010 at 9:22am:

Anyway, since I do not have a complete understanding of partition alignment or where it resides, does it make sense then that if I was to do "partition to image" and "image to partition" in order to do my backup, it would be preserved because that alignment is on a lower level?Whereas the "disk to image"/"image to disk" would be like restoring to unallocated space?

26kick,

I think it may help if you view the image restore process as consisting of two independent steps.  Think of it like pouring soup into a cup, or a bowl, or whatever.  First you have to have the vessel; that's the first step.  The second step is pouring in the soup, and the soup will adopt the shape of the vessel.

A partition image is like soup; you need a partition "shell" to pour it into.  If your restore destination is a predefined partition, Ghost doesn't question how it is aligned, it simply pours in the contents from the image and the finished product keeps the shape of the preexisting partition.

If your restore destination is unallocated space, however, either you or Ghost will have to create the shell (the empty partition) first.  If you do it, you can align it however you like.  If you let Ghost do it, the only kind of alignment v2003 knows how to do is CHS-alignment.  Either way, pouring in the soup is a separate operation.

Understand this, and it's easy to see why partition images are so versatile.  That's also why you can restore to a partition of a different size.  I don't use whole-disk images, but IIRC they have to be restored to unallocated space, which means you're going to let Ghost create the partition shells . . . and it will do that the only way it knows how.

You'll find a similar discussion in this thread.

As for your question about what alignment XP supports, see my posts #15 and #18 in that thread.  There is a distinction between what the OS supports, and what the OS installer supports.

BTW: It's not an official term, but in the above I use the term "shell" to hopefully make it clearer that all you need are the boundaries of the partition.  Literally, that's all a partition is (so "partition shell" is redundant), but a lot people get confused by thinking the file system (FAT32, ext3, NTFS, HPFS, et al) or the OS is part of what defines the partition.  Ghost 2003 pours in the file system and all the files, but it needs the shell before it can do that.

(p.s.: all of the above assumes we're talking about conventional image/restores.  The kind using "bit-for-bit", forensic-type switches are a different topic.)

@ Dan Goodell


Quote:

Understand this, and it's easy to see why partition images are so versatile.  That's also why you can restore to a partition of a different size.  I don't use whole-disk images, but IIRC they have to be restored to unallocated space, which means you're going to let Ghost create the partition shells . . . and it will do that the only way it knows how.

I use whole disk images.  When you restore, you can select *Local > Partition > From Image*.  When you do this, you can choose just one partition to restore--but, you have to first create a destination partition--and that's where you choose what alignment you want to create before doing the restore!  That's where you use the correct partitioning tool to do that--Ghost 2003 can not do the newer alignments.

If you have multiple partitions, you just restore them one at a time to your predefined partitions on the destination HDD.

Ah, good--thanks for the clarification, NightOwl.  I wasn't sure if you could pull out single partitions from a whole-disk image.

Dear Dan and NightOwl,

Thanks for responding with such good information.  I understand partitions a bit better now. 

As far as my situation then, if I understand correctly, I should back up using “local>partition>to image” and restore using “local>partition>from image”.  And since my SSD is currently aligned, I shouldn’t need to recreate the “shell”, just restore the partition “into” it. 

I suppose if I wanted to, I could “sanitary erase” the drive (OCZ’s proprietary way of clearing their drives) then create an active, aligned, formatted partition using Diskpart from the Win 7 recovery disc before I restore the partition.  I posted this link earlier but this is where they describe what I'm talking about, using Diskpart:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/wiki/index.php?title=How_to_set_up_Windows_on_a_VERTEX

Would that preserve my alignment?  I remember reading somewhere that it’s possible for the drive to be setup with the proper size clusters (?), 1024K for me,  but for it still to be unaligned with the partition, and that it’s possible to “shift” things over for alignment.  I forget which utility they used to do the shifting.

Anyway, if I don’t need to worry about shifting, all the better!

Knowing all of this in advance could save me a huge headache when it comes time that I need Ghost to get me out of a situation.  At this point I’ve only ever done full disk images but now with an SSD, maybe it’s time to change that.  Please let me know if I’m on the right track…..

26kick wrote on Mar 25^th, 2010 at 8:25pm:

BTW, I'm aligned at 1024K, not 2048, as per OCZ support.

Your alignment is 1024 kb. Which is 2048 sectors. In Diskpart..

create partition primary align=1024

refers to kb.

So, all OK. BING can work with 2048 sector aligned partitions. (1024 kb aligned) (1 MB aligned)

Cool, thanks Brian.  So when I backup, local>partition>to image......and if I need to restore local>partition>from image.

?

That will preserve the alignment, right?  If so, BING is not necessary.

26kick wrote on Mar 30^th, 2010 at 1:22pm:

That will preserve the alignment, right?

As long as you restore into a partition with the same alignment.

This is a post to help those who may have had issues imaging systems with SSD drives and Windows 7, or any OS for that matter. Also some information about alignment settings with SSD. There are several ways to do things, this is just one recommend way.


**
Prepare a new bare SSD drive.
Boot from a Windows 7 disc and at the first setup screen (Language, Keyboard, etc.) press SHIFT + F10. At the new cmd prompt type "C:\" then press Enter.



**
Next we will repartition the first SSD and align it correctly. This will also keep Windows 7 from making a 100mb partition. THIS WILL DELETE ALL DATA ON SDD. Enter the following commands:


diskpart
list disk
select disk 0
clean
create partition primary
select partition 1
active


**
Now continue with the install of Windows 7. Note that turning off page file, and hibernation makes the Windows foot print only 8GB.


**
When ready, image your system using any version of Ghost. I tested with Ghost 8.0 32bit (ghost32) version, but really it should not matter. Make sure you do a "Partition to image"


**
To properly restore a ghost image to an SSD, make sure the SSD has previously had diskpart correctly performed on it as written above.



**
Restore the ghost image using your favorite version of ghost. Make sure you do a "Image to Partition" restore. Reboot when ready.


**
If Windows will not boot (mine did not the first time because the MBR is not yet set), then boot off the CD again, run the command bootrec /RebuildBcd, then choose the windows installation. There should only be one. Reboot. Enjoy.

Note that newer versions of ghost may handle SSD offsets and Windows 7 MBR. I don't know.

@ PCUnites


Quote:

Prepare a new bare SSD drive. Boot from a Windows 7 disc and at the first setup screen (Language, Keyboard, etc.) press SHIFT + F10. At the new cmd prompt type "C:\" then press Enter. ** Next we will repartition the first SSD and align it correctly. This will also keep Windows 7 from making a 100mb partition. THIS WILL DELETE ALL DATA ON SDD. Enter the following commands: diskpart list disk select disk 0 clean create partition primary select partition 1 active

There it is--finally, the answer I've been wondering about for a long time!  I thought *surely--there must be a way to use the Win7 partitioning tool to avoid the 100 MB System partition*!  And, this solution does not apply just to SSD based systems--this works on any system!

There have been previous threads on how to avoid the 100 MB non-drive letter assigned, but *required* System partition--which included using a WinXP installation CD to pre-partition one's HDD before booting the Win7 installation CD.

I've always wondered if you get the *latest and greatest* current Master Boot Record on your HDD if you use the 7 year old WinXP installation CD--rather than the actual partitioning tool that comes with Win7. 

Once I saw your solution, I then knew what to Google for and have found another method using the Win7 installation routine as well:  How to Prevent Windows 7 from Creating a Hidden /Recovery /System Reserved Partition during Installation

Here's another reference:  Hack to Remove 100 MB System Reserved Partition When Installing Windows 7

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction!!!!