I have a dell p4 laptop, xp2, with a single hard drive. I attempted to copy the primary drive  to a new hard drive thru usb. The copy hard drive feature is available when the computer has booted to windows, but not from the srd. I would think certain files would be inaccessable with windows open for a fully functional hard drive copy. That is why I first looked at booting thru the srd for a hard drive copy function, but found none. I then performed the copy function thru the open g12 program, selected create mbr and make bootable drive. The installed copy drive boots to a blue windows xp screen, but then stalls and does not progress to the welcome screen. Can this be fixed or have I done something wrong?

@ rleescott


rleescott wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2013 at 12:59pm:

Can this be fixed or have I done something wrong?

You followed the userguide but unfortunately the guide is ambiguous and the copy failed. You copied into a partition with a drive letter rather than into unallocated space and you have a drive letter issue.

See "How to Manage System and Boot Drive Letters "....

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.shtml

If you zero the Disk ID, WinXP will load. I know you don't have a floppy drive but do you have a Win7 DVD or a BIBM CD?

A better idea. Download Win98SE_bootdisk.iso from...

http://www.allbootdisks.com/download/iso.html

Burn the ISO. Boot from the CD and at the A:\> prompt type

fdisk /mbr

and press Enter. You won't see anything happen. It goes back to the prompt. WinXP should load now.

Well, guess what? I do have a floppy on this laptop. I do not know what zeroing a disk is, so I will need guidance. I have xp cd and win7 dvd, but my install is xpsp2. Can this repair be done thru repair console? If so, I will need a step by step as to what I enter and where. Thanks

Do Reply #2. That's the easiest.

For future reference, is a brand new hard drive shipped from manufacturer by definition unallocated?
If I am copying to a drive with an existing os, will wiping the drive before copying make it unallocated?
Will accessing the drive via usb as a secondary drive and then deleting the os in disk management create an unallocated drive?
I would still like to know if the fdsk/mbr or equivalent is available to fix this problem by loading the xp cd and using the repair console.

@ rleescott

Excellent questions--I do not use cloning programs from within Windows myself--so I have never tested some of the areas you are having questions about--but, I can answer a couple of them--and I suspect Brian has the answers to the others when he gets back to this thread......


Quote:

I would still like to know if the fdsk/mbr or equivalent is available to fix this problem by loading the xp cd and using the repair console.

If you read and understood what was being discussed in Brian's previous reference above: 


Brian wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2013 at 2:53pm:

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.shtml

you have your answer already! 


Quote:

Method #3 ("Kawecki's Trick"): ....... The Win98 fdisk /mbr command is similar to the 2000/XP fixmbr command (used from the 2000/XP recovery console). The intended purpose of both commands is to restore the MBR boot code, and both commands do replace the boot code without altering the partition table at the end of the master boot sector. The two commands are not exactly identical, however. As detailed by Michal Kawecki, the NT/2000/XP boot code is 440 bytes, while the Win98 boot code is 446 bytes (271 bytes of executable code, 80 bytes in error messages, and 95 bytes filled with zeroes). The NT/2000/XP fixmbr command replaces the MBR boot code but stops short of overwriting the four bytes of the DiskID that sits between the boot code and the partition table. The Win98 fdisk /mbr command will replace the boot code and zero the DiskID--albeit, unintentionally. As Kawecki points out, we can take advantage of that "mistake" because it has the effect of invalidating the partition signatures--since the signature is derived from the DiskID and Windows has to regenerate a new DiskID, it has to recalculate the signatures and assign new drive letters, abandoning any previous assignments.

So, no, you can not use the WinXP recovery console's *fdsk/mbr* and get the same results.


Quote:

For future reference, is a brand new hard drive shipped from manufacturer by definition unallocated?

Depends.  If the HDD is a *bare* HDD, then probably *yes*.  But, if you get a HDD enclosed in a USB external HDD enclosure, then it usually comes pre-formatted, and that is now *allocated*.


Quote:

If I am copying to a drive with an existing os, will wiping the drive before copying make it unallocated?

Again, it depends on your definitions of *wiping* and what you define as *unallocated*--most *wiping* procedures will remove the partition table and the drive will be available for re-formatting and partitioning to start over.  But, the MBR is not touched, except to clear the Master Partition Table.  So a *wiped* drive will still retain the original MBR code and the original Disk ID will still be intact.  There are very specific methods and programs that do a *true* wipe where they also zero out the whole first sector of the HDD and that clears the MBR completely--this drive will now be a *bare* HDD as if it was fresh from the manufacturer--no partition table, no MBR--you have to start fresh with new formatting that creates the MBR, and partitioning.


Quote:

Will accessing the drive via usb as a secondary drive and then deleting the os in disk management create an unallocated drive?

I'm not sure I'm following the sequence of events correctly!  Are you asking if you delete the USB's HDD's contents by reformatting, will the HDD be *unallocated*?  Probable *yes*. 

But, you asked if you *delete the os in disk management*--well, the OS is on your primary HDD, and I suspect disk management will not allow that to be done.

So, I think the question(s) that you are trying to get at is how to access a HDD in a USB enclosure in Windows without drive letters being assigned and remembered by the Windows OS during a cloning procedure such that the USB HDD's assigned drive letter is remembered to be the drive letter it was assigned by Windows during the clone process, and when you next boot that cloned HDD--and the drive letter of the USB HDD is remembered in the Windows registry--and it's drive letter is not *C*!

Again, Brian's reference above: 


Brian wrote on Apr 22^nd, 2013 at 2:53pm:

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.shtml

the *Method #2:* tells you how to accomplish the feat before proceeding with the clone.



@ Brian

How are you supposed to correctly use Ghost 12 from within Windows to avoid the remembering of the drive letter assigned to the USB enclosed HDD during cloning, and then installing it as the new boot drive?

@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 10:41am:

How are you supposed to correctly use Ghost 12 from within Windows to avoid the remembering of the drive letter assigned to the USB enclosed HDD during cloning, and then installing it as the new boot drive?

The problem is the drive letter of the target partition. If there is no drive letter then the cloned WinXP will load normally. So the following situations are fine...

Clone into unallocated space (no partition)
Clone into a formatted partition without a drive letter
Clone into an unformatted partition without a drive letter

During the Ghost wizard, choose these options...

Check source for file system errors
Check destination for file system errors
Set drive active (for booting OS)
DON'T SELECT Disable SmartSector copying
DON'T SELECT Ignore bad sectors during copy
Copy MBR
Destination partition type : Primary
Drive letter : None

On first boot from the new HD, don't have the old HD installed/attached to the computer. Otherwise the new OS can't adopt the C: drive letter.

Brian, I did exactly the sequence you describe in your last post and installed the new copy as the the only drive. That is how I got into this situation, so those instructions do not work to create a properly bootable copy.
Are you aware of free software that will erase a drive to return it to unallocated space? Night owl's comments make me think a wipe with copy/wipe won't work. Will gparted or similar work for this?
If I place the new drive into which I have copied my original drive in a usb enclosure and connect to my laptop with a working os, can I use disk management
to delete all visible partitions as a way to return the new drive to full unallocated status.

@ rleescott

What happened after you ran fdisk /mbr? Did you have the new HD as the only internal drive when you ran fdisk /mbr?

What happened when you then tried to boot WinXP?

Edit... I've never seen fdisk /mbr fail.

@ rleescott


rleescott wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 4:54pm:

Brian, I did exactly the sequence you describe in your last post and installed the new copy as the the only drive. That is how I got into this situation, so those instructions do not work to create a properly bootable copy

To be clear, you hooked up a *new* HDD (it has never been used before for anything else--ever) to a USB adaptor, you did not initialize or allow Windows to assign a drive letter to the HDD that was hooked to the USB adaptor, and you verified that the HDD in Disk Management shows that HDD as having no drive letter and the space was unallocated.

Or, are you *assuming* that that was the case?


rleescott wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 4:54pm:

Are you aware of free software that will erase a drive to return it to unallocated space?

Yes, there are *lots* of free options.  I'm pressed for time tonight, and can not respond for the next day or so, but I will come back with options for you if you need them and someone else hasn't already helped out.


rleescott wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 4:54pm:

If I place the new drive into which I have copied my original drive in a usb enclosure and connect to my laptop with a working os, can I use disk management to delete all visible partitions as a way to return the new drive to full unallocated status.

Yes, it will show the HDD as having all the HDD as being *unallocated*, but the MBR will not be *zeroed*, and most likely a cloning operation will not overwrite the existing MBR code with the MBR from the cloned HDD.  It's probably academic--it's likely the new cloned HDD will boot if the correct steps are followed.  The MBR is not the problem with the *non-boot*--it's that the cloned Windows registry remembers a drive letter that was assigned to the HDD when it was in the USB adaptor--and when Windows attempts to boot, it calls programs from the *C* drive, but the HDD that is now present has whatever drive letter it was assigned when cloning occurred--so, booting fails.


Brian wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 8:35pm:

What happened after you ran fdisk /mbr?

@ rleescott

Did you try this?  It's actually the *simplest* solution--if it works--it works great!  If it does not work, then there is a problem that's different than what we think the problem is, and we will have to look further at the problem.

@ rleescott

How did you prepare your new HD prior to running Copy Drive?

Hello to all. I have completed the fdisk process with perfect results, and thank you for this help. For others to know, the boot with fdisk is strange, saying memory has changed, referencing fat32 issues and requiring steps to proceed that I didn't anticipate. So for a moment I was concerned that I wouldn't get to the proper prompt. But after jumping thru a few hoops, there was the prompt and it works just as described.
Regarding my initial process, I copied from my old initial drive to a used drive with an os, thinking it would wipe and install simultaneously. Obviously my inexperience. Now I would like to do another copy of the same original drive to a used good drive.
If I use partitioning software to create unallocated space on the new used drive and copy into that, it seems that this would work. But it may leave hidden and non hidden partitions, all of which I want gone, because I would like a perfect copy, not just a functional copy. How do I prepare the drive to be 100% unallocated, like a bare drive? for example, how do I remove a drive letter?

@ rleescott

Great work. You are up and running.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Regarding my initial process, I copied from my old initial drive to a used drive with an os, thinking it would wipe and install simultaneously

That's what I mentioned above. You copied into a partition with a drive letter.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

How do I prepare the drive to be 100% unallocated

It's simple. View the drive in Disk Management and delete all partitions. Disk Management will show the entire drive as unallocated space.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 8:27am:

because I would like a perfect copy, noyt just a functional copy.

You have a perfect copy now. It won't be any better if you repeat the copy. But I see you have a different target HD so go right ahead.

Ok, to be clear, I put the new drive in a usb enclosure and use disk management to delete all partitions. There will be no hidden partitions or conflicting mbr? Night Owl seemed unsure if this would zero the disk.

Will it do exactly the same if in disk management I right click on the drive partition, select assign drive letters, then select remove drive letter, delete nothing and format nothing?

Will it also work if connect the new used drive to win7 by usb, use disk management to shrink the volume to a size that will hold the original and copy into the created unallocated space? After that I delete everything on the new drive that isn't a primary partition and use partitioning software to expand to the full size? Yes, this is unnecessarily complex, but if the answer is "yes, it will give you a bootable copy", then I think I understand the process.

Finally, can I avoid all these issues by doing a direct copy using copy/wipe, creating a perdect digital clone with no boot issues?

rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

I put the new drive in a usb enclosure and use disk management to delete all partitions. There will be no hidden partitions or conflicting mbr?

That's all you need to do.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

Will it do exactly the same if in disk management I right click on the drive partition, select assign drive letters, then select remove drive letter, delete nothing and format nothing?

That will work as you will be copying into a partition without a drive letter.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

Will it also work if connect the new used drive to win7 by usb, use disk management to shrink the volume to a size that will hold the original and copy into the created unallocated space?

It will work if you remove the drive letter.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

it will give you a bootable copy

If you avoid drive letters, all copies will be bootable.


rleescott wrote on Apr 24^th, 2013 at 2:48pm:

can I avoid all these issues by doing a direct copy using copy/wipe, creating a perdect digital clone with no boot issues?

If you mean TeraByte Unlimited's CopyWipe then yes, you can ignore drive letters on the target drive.

In the page I quoted....

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.shtml

Dan discusses "two general rules for successful cloning of NT-family OS's"

These do apply to the Ghost series of backup apps. (The ones with Copy Drive) Other apps such as IFW, IFD, IFL can get around these rules by making registry changes in the copied OS and do allow copying into partitions with a drive letter.

Thanks. I understand all except one thing. If I create unallocated space in a drive and copy into it, why do I need to remove the drive letter? Seems like the unallocated space idea would take care of the issue.

@ rleescott


rleescott wrote on Apr 25^th, 2013 at 1:44pm:

why do I need to remove the drive letter?

They are two separate methods. You can use either. In most cases I copy into unallocated space. If I want a defined target partition size I use the latter. As NightOwl pointed out, you can copy into a partition with a drive letter if you use Dan's Method #2 (deleting the MountedDevices registry key). So that's a third method of doing Ghost Copy Drive.

Unallocated space simply means there is no partition in that space. So the entire drive can be unallocated space, half the drive can be unallocated space, 10% of the drive, whatever.

Without the advise of this forum, I would not have gotten a successful copy, and I am grateful. Ok, now, here is an update and a rant.
I decided to use the info taught by this forum to test g12, based on my previous difficulties.
I initiated a copy of the original laptop drive, xp2, to another larger drive, with a functional xp os. I installed the new drive in a usb enclosure and mounted by usb port. I went to disk management and deleted the drive letter (E:) w/o difficulty. I initiated copy from g12 thru windows and got an immediate error that referenced something like administrative/security violation, and it immediately offered a symantec link to support. I tried twice with the same result, noting that I left the partition allocated, just no drive letter assigned. I then went back and deleted the partition so that the entire drive was unallocated with no drive letter, and copy completed w/o error code.
I conclude for g12 and xp, that simply deleting the drive letter WILL NOT allow a copy to proceed. Maybe this has been corrected in later versions? Has it been tried?
After completing the copy, I installed and booted. However, it started with 2 boot options, xp, or windows nt/2003, etc, which I must select to proceed, or wait for default loading. Therefore, this is not an exact copy, if I am required to delete the non-existing 2003 boot pathway. If this slight nuance is different, perhaps there are other, hidden differences as well. I deleted the  erroneous path in msconfig, boot ini tab, but shouldn't have to do so if a proper copy is being made.
Once booted, I found that the hard drive had not expanded to the larger capacity of the new drive. The expand option was "greyed out" during the copy procedure, both here and my original first copy posting. On the original, however, the drive magically enlarged, even though expand volume was "greyed out" then also. On this copy into unallocated space, I not only have to delete a 2nd non-existing dual boot, but I have to use other software to expand the partition after the copy, to utilize the full space of the larger drive.
The truth here seems to be, it is easier  to forget the unallocated space discussion/controversy for copying. There is less post-copy effort required if you just copy the drive without creating unallocated space, because then it expands to the size of the new drive, and all that is necessary is to fdisk to achieve boot status. The unallocated copy requires both partition expansion software and the extra step of deleted the second, invalid boot option.
I find this g12 copy option to be  flawed and not worthy of the price I paid. Terrabyte copy/wipe is free and makes an identical copy to the correct expanded size, with no followup adjustment required.
Have the newer versions of ghost fixed these issues?
Without this forum,I would never have been able to get a norton copy. Does Symantec understand the magnitude of this flaw? Do they monitor this forum?
I hope this posting helps others with the same problem.

@ rleescott

I can confirm your findings. I installed Ghost 12 into a test WinXP. Trying to copy to a partition without a drive letter failed immediately. Strangely, trying to copy to a partition with a drive letter failed 5 seconds into the copy. Copying to unallocated space worked and the resize selection was available and worked.

I know these procedures work with Ghost 15 because I've used them several times.


rleescott wrote on Apr 26^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

However, it started with 2 boot options, xp, or windows nt/2003, etc, which I must select to proceed,

This is seen with some, not all computers and is still present with Ghost 15 but I think the SP1 update made it less likely.


rleescott wrote on Apr 26^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

Does Symantec understand the magnitude of this flaw?

I tried for 8 years to get the Copy Drive section of the Ghost userguide corrected. It is ambiguous if not incorrect. It has finally been corrected to my satisfaction in SSR 2013.

TeraByte's CopyWipe is no longer supported even though it works, but with limitations. Have a look at the TeraByte Bundle if you want software that works every time.

Edit... I got the 2 choice boot menu too.

@ rleescott and @ Brian


Brian wrote on Apr 26^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

I can confirm your findings.

but,


rleescott wrote on Apr 26^th, 2013 at 1:00pm:

Once booted, I found that the hard drive had not expanded to the larger capacity of the new drive. The expand option was "greyed out" during the copy procedure

and,


Brian wrote on Apr 26^th, 2013 at 4:05pm:

Copying to unallocated space worked and the resize selection was available and worked.

These two statements seem to be at odds with each other.  Could you two comment on this difference?  What was done different that changed this behavior?

I have some other comments about the results reported--I will make those when I have a bit more free time.

But, all I'll say for now is *very interesting*.........

I would like very much to know why my expand option is greyed out. I have never seen it available when creating a copy, both with desktop and laptop.

I've used Copy Drive for hundreds of tests. "Resize drive after recover (unallocated space only)" has always been available when I've copied into unallocated space that is larger than the source partition. It is always greyed out when copying into any sized target partition.

As you may recall, the last test I performed was to 100% unallocated space, created after I deleted a single C partition on a 160 G drive, freeing up all space as unallocated, to which I copied a 30G drive. Enlarge target was greyed out as I stated.
Suggestions?

Sorry. That's not my experience. I've no idea.

@ rleescott and @ Brian


rleescott wrote on May 5^th, 2013 at 4:35pm:

As you may recall, the last test I performed was to 100% unallocated space, created after I deleted a single C partition on a 160 G drive, freeing up all space as unallocated, to which I copied a 30G drive.

Well, something is *different* in what the two of you are doing.

@ rleescott

How old is your HDD?  Do you remember what formatting tool(s) was used to create the original partition(s) and formatting?  In other words, where did the original MBR come from.

@ Brian

Same general question!  I know you have done this hundreds of times--but, where did your original MBRs come from initially on you HDDs and how long ago?

@ NightOwl

I've used several computers, mainly test computers where the partitions were created and deleted numerous times. The HDs were wiped often as well. I've seen occasional reports of the Resize button being greyed out but that hasn't been my experience. Rleescott copied into unallocated space so I can't explain why the Resize button wasn't available.

@ Brian


Quote:

I've seen occasional reports of the Resize button being greyed out but that hasn't been my experience.

Trust me, I seriously doubt it has something to do with your systems or techniques.  My suspicions are with rleescott's system or set up.  I'm just looking for the *hidden* key as to why the different results.

@ rleescott

Has the greyed out resize option always been when using that same HDD--or does it happen on multiple HDDs when attempting a similar copy procedure from a smaller to a larger HDD?

Rleescott and I both failed to copy an OS into a partition without a drive letter, using Ghost 12. I mentioned there wasn't a problem with Ghost 15 and I just tested Symantec System Recovery 2013 (the replacement for Ghost 15) and it can copy an OS into a partition without a drive letter. The target partition retains its size.

rleescott wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2013 at 4:54pm:

Are you aware of free software that will erase a drive to return it to unallocated space

Here's what I do, if I want to clone with Ghost 2003.

These steps did not work on my flash drive under XP but, may work with a USB HDD.

Windows can zero your disk, by using Diskpart.

Open a Command Prompt window & type Diskpart.
Type List Disk & List Volume to see & identify your drives.
Type Select Disk # (where # represents the number of your uSB drive).
Type Clean All to zero your drive.

Remember to press Enter to execute each command.

You may need to initialize the disk before Ghost will recognize it.

to do this, open Disk Management, right click the drive & select Initialize.

Do not create any Partitions.

Type Exit before closing Command Prompt, done.

@ U Look Like U Saw A Ghost

What advantage do you find by using "clean /all" over using "clean"? Just curious.

Reading the description when I type help, I believe clean clears the partition table but, leaves the partitions intact, while Clean All zeros the entire disk.

There is no difference in the practical end result.

Just apreference.

Yes, "clean" zeroes the first 2048 sectors. (on both cylinder aligned and MB aligned partitioned drives)

@ U Look Like U Saw A Ghost and @ Brian

Okay, folks....I'm using WinXP (still) and opened a command window and ran *Diskpart* and used *diskpart ?* to list the various commands available.  It was very *unclear* what the *clear* command does!

Looking for other references, I found these:

DiskPart Command-Line Options

A Description of the Diskpart Command-Line Utility


Quote:

Removes any and all partition or volume formatting from the disk with focus. On master boot record (MBR) disks, only the MBR partitioning information and hidden sector information are overwritten. On GUID partition table (GPT) disks, the GPT partitioning information, including the Protective MBR, is overwritten; there is no hidden sector information. all Specifies that each and every sector on the disk is zeroed, which completely deletes all data contained on the disk.

Quote:

and hidden sector information

Well, that's *clear* as mud as to what DiskPart is doing!


U Look Like U Saw A Ghost wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

There is no difference in the practical end result.

Well, most certainly there is a difference!!!! (Well, okay in the sense of the *practical end result* there may be *no difference*--but, it's potentially a long time coming!!!!)  You will have to wait up to several hours for the *clean all* command to finish zeroing the entire HDD!  This reference:  How to "Clean" or "Clean All" a Disk with the Diskpart Command , states....


Quote:

"Clean All" takes about an hour per 320 GB to finish running

Brian wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 4:15am:

Yes, "clean" zeroes the first 2048 sectors. (on both cylinder aligned and MB aligned partitioned drives)

Where did you find that information--I couldn't find anything that clearly specifies that result!  I would have to think that *Diskpart* on a WinXP system would not necessarily be 2048 sector aware (WinXP came out in the early 2000's and I believe it pre-dated using the 2048 sector alignment that has become the *default* if you let the newer versions of Windows format your HDD before installation)!  Is there more than one version of *Diskpart* with different outcomes?  (Just like *fdisk* has evolved over the years since its inception back in the DOS only era!)

NightOwl,

I haven't used WinXP diskpart. I know it doesn't support USB drives but I'm not sure of the other differences.


NightOwl wrote on May 10^th, 2013 at 10:01am:

Where did you find that information--I couldn't find anything that clearly specifies that result!

Personal testing.



A practical example of diskpart usage. I installed my Win8 OS from a flash drive. 8 minutes for the entire install and much faster than a DVD install.

   1. Plug in your USB device

   2. Start an Administrator mode Command Prompt. To do this, click on the Start button, then All Programs, then Accessories. Right-click on the Command Prompt item and select Run as administrator from the pop-up menu. If a UAC prompt is displayed, click the Yes button.

   3. Find the drive number of your USB Drive by typing the following into the Command Prompt window:

      diskpart
      list disk

      The number of your USB drive will be listed. You’ll need this for the next step.  I’ll assume that the USB device is disk 3.

   4. Format the drive by typing the following instructions into the same window. Replace the number “3” with the number of your disk.

      list disk    (already done)
      select disk 3
      list disk    (do this to confirm. There will be a Star next to the selected disk)
      clean
      create partition primary
      select partition 1
      active
      format fs=NTFS quick  (or FAT32, FAT)
      assign
      exit

Now simply copy/paste all files and folders from the Win 7 or 8 DVD to the flash drive. Now the flash drive is bootable. You can use the same method for creating a Ghost 15 bootable flash drive.

Diskpart versions....

WinXP is   5.1.3565
Win7 is     6.1.7601
Win8 is     6.2.9200

Edit... You can run diskpart from a WinPE disk as well as from Windows. For example, Win7, Win8, Ghost 15, Active @ Boot Disk, the TeraByte Unlimited WinPE disks.

Edit... I just checked a GPT disk. "Clean" zeroes the first 2048 sectors.