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Message started by NightOwl on Mar 29th, 2014 at 4:00pm

Title: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Mar 29th, 2014 at 4:00pm
So, I started this process of upgrading from WinXP to Win7:  SSDs, Win7, Multibooting--Best Practices, Questions, and Issues

I have not finished that part of the project, yet, and I need to come back to it shortly.  (I better hurry up--time is running out!!!!!)

But, the problem I'm facing right now is I'm unsure how to start fresh, but still bring forward some of my current data.  I think I need to be able to boot my old WinXP system when I remember what I have forgot to copy ahead of time.  But, I'm not sure how best to do a dual boot system given my current setup. 

My current WinXP system setup:  2 spinning HDD's (SATA):

HDD 0:  has the OS on the primary OS partition, and an extended partition with 5 logical partitions that store DATA.

HDD 1:  has one extended partition with 3 logical partitions in it--the first is for the Win pagefile, the second is for the IE cache and Temp files--these first two partitions are small, and the third is the large partition that has Ghost images and backup files from certain data files from the first HDD.

So, in a new setup for Win7 on a SSD drive, I see putting the OS on the SSD, and having a second spinning HDD for data, etc.--and I could put backup image files of the SSD on that second spinning HDD, but--how best to backup the data on the second HDD?--it will not be redundant without another HDD involved to back up that data in case of possible failure!  So, how are others handling that issue on their setups?

I'm thinking if I install an SSD and place Win7 on it, but also keep my WinXP available--when I boot to the WinXP OS, it's going to want to access and place those *System Volume Information* directories on the SSD--those *System Volume Information* files are full of Restore Point data--and that will be working the SSD on a constant basis--will that be a major/minor wear and tear issue for the SSD?  Should I even worry about it?  Will Win7 be placing it's *System Volume Information* on the WinXP OS system drive, and the other partitions on that HDD?  Will two different Windows OS's putting data on another system's drive cause problems?

I tried to see if the BIOS was able to hide one drive from another--I can select that a given drive not be visible to the system--but that works to prevent a drive from booting--it's not available during the POST and proceeding to the boot sequence--or the drive is not found if booted to DOS from a bootable optical drive or floppy--but, if I hide the non-OS drive, and boot to WinXP from the OS HDD--WinXP was able to show and use the  drive that I had *hidden* using the BIOS.  So, I'm guessing the Win7 can do the same thing--the Win OSs by passes the BIOS--and sees any attached HDD and mounts it!

It looks like I will have to physically disconnect cables and power plugs manually as the only way to keep the SSD and spinning HDDs separated from one another--if that's more appropriate.  Clearly a pain to do, but could be done.

Brian, if you look at this, is there a software based way using Boot It Bare Metal (BIBM) to keep different HDDs from being seen by other HDDs?  I looked at BIBM's user guide--and found that I was clearly *not in Kansas anymore*!  It was so complicated compared to what I've been doing in the past--I'm clearly a country bumpkin in a fast moving forward digital world--there were so many options available, and I have very few clues as to which ones to choose and pay attention to-YIKES!


And, the other part of the problem--I'm feeling overwhelmed by trying to determine what I should try to bring forward--and how best to do so.  Or, should I just dump it all, and start over *fresh*.  If someone has an outline of how best to do this, or a link to someone else's outline, I'd sure be willing to take a look!  Right now I'm spinning my brain cells and getting nowhere fast.

Thanks for reading my long post (once again!), and even more thanks if you have dealt with these issue and can post suggestions on how best to approach them!

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:29pm
@ NightOwl

No problems with BIBM. You can have 200 OS on each HD and none will see the other 199 when booted. But practically, you only want two OS, WinXP and Win7. These should be on the SSD for speed.

Leaving the details for later, are you planning to run two HDs and one SSD? That is my setup. Or one HD and one SSD?

What is your WinXP partition size and the amount of free space?

Edit... I can talk you through this. Initially you would install the SSD connected to SATA port 1 on the MB. Presumably the same port your WinXP HD is now using. Boot from a BIBM CD and install BIBM to the SSD. Set up a boot item for WinXP and boot WinXP from its current HD.

Next, copy the WinXP partition to the SSD and set up a boot item for WinXP on the SSD. Neither OS will see the other. You can compare OS speeds.

Next, install Win7 to the SSD and set up a boot item for Win7 on the SSD. The 3 OS will be independent but can continue to use all data partitions in your computer.

No changes will be made to your current two HDs.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Dan Goodell on Mar 30th, 2014 at 1:48pm
I wholeheartedly agree with Brian:  BIBM+OS1+OS2 on the SSD, and use one or both HDDs for data.  While you will initially start with XP as one of the OSs on the SSD, consider that you might eventually replace it with another OS (Win8, Win9, Ubuntu, or even another Win7 to use as a sandbox).  So plan ahead and make sure the SSD's XP partition will be big enough to handle a different OS when the time comes.

What size SSD will you be using?  If large enough, you might leave room for other partitions--perhaps a third OS, or a small data partition.  (You may not need a third OS on the SSD, though, if you repurpose the HDD's old XP partition for a sandbox OS.)

I like to put my Documents folder on the SSD because I really love the speed, especially when deep in the middle of a programming session.  The SSD holds my programming IDE plus Word/Excel documents, Quicken data, and stuff like that.  Big libraries like Pictures and Music still go on the HDD.  In my case, my 250GB SSD has five partitions: BIBM/DOS, three OSs (7/8/XP), and Data.

When planning your SSD partition layout, make sure you understand the concept of "overprovisioning".

Since you're not making any changes to the two HDDs at the outset, you don't have to decide what to carry over.  You'll still have it all, and can decide later how to rearrange the HDD partitions.



Quote:
Will Win7 be placing it's *System Volume Information* on the WinXP OS system drive, and the other partitions on that HDD?

"System Volume Information" stores restore points for that particular partition.  It doesn't store C's restore points on D, for instance.  Incidentally, that's why you don't want the OSs seeing each other.  You don't want two OSs overwriting each others' restore points.  That can happen if OS1 sees itself as C and OS2 sees that same partition as, say, D and has System Restore turned on for D.



Quote:
how best to backup the data on the second HDD?--it will not be redundant without another HDD involved to back up that data in case of possible failure!  So, how are others handling that issue on their setups?

With external drives.  Yes, you need redundancy, but if both backup drives are installed internally you aren't protecting yourself against all disaster scenarios.  What if there's a break-in and somebody steals your computer?  Better to have that second backup copy be on an external drive that can be stored elsewhere.




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Mar 31st, 2014 at 1:19am
@ Brian and @ Dan Goodell

Thanks for your responses--good information!  I have more to add in response to Brian's questions that will influence the direction that I may have to take--but, it's late tonight, and I have to work tomorrow--so it will have to wait a day before I can continue.

Just wanted to respond until then.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Mar 31st, 2014 at 2:11am
@ Dan Goodell


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 1:48pm:
When planning your SSD partition layout, make sure you understand the concept of "overprovisioning".


Are you suggesting we should leave unpartitioned space on the drive?

Say you have a single partition filling the drive. How much data can you put in the partition before performance starts to suffer?

Say you have a partition occupying half the drive. The remaining space is not partitioned. How much data can you put in the partition before performance starts to suffer?


Edit.... If it was a HD I'd say 85% for both partitions, but I suspect SSDs may be different.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Dan Goodell on Mar 31st, 2014 at 7:20pm
To work effectively, garbage-collection needs unused space on the drive.  It works at the drive level, not the partition level, so "unused space" includes unallocated (unpartitioned) space plus free space within all partitions.  (The purpose of TRIM is to tell the SSD what space within partitions is truly free and available for garbage-collection.)

Let's use an example of 20% overprovisioning (OP).  If you have a single partition occupying 100% of SSD capacity, you're okay if you never fill the partition to more than 80% full.  If you instead have a single partition occupying only 80% of the SSD capacity, you can fill the partition to 100% full.

If you have multiple partitions, you need to aggregate the free space on all partitions.  So one partition could be completely full if another has lots of room.  Or both could be completely full if you've left 20% unallocated.

Personally, my feeling is that if you have a single partition, you may as well leave space unallocated.  After all, if you put it in a partition and swear not to use it, then why bother?  Just leave it unallocated.

If you have multiple partitions, it becomes less clear cut.  With multiple partitions you'll almost never be 100% full on all of them at the same time, so there should always be free space somewhere to contribute to the OP pool.  I might still leave some space unallocated, but maybe not as much.

I think many, if not most, manufacturers also have some built-in OP, so determining the amount of OP is not always clear.  OP includes the built-in amount the manufacturer has hidden from the user, plus the unallocated amount (the space the user has hidden from the OS), plus free space within partitions (as marked by TRIM).  But I seldom see the manufacturer's built-in OP listed in specs anywhere, so it gets a bit fuzzy as to how much the user should add. 

For example, my Samsung EVO is 250GB.  We all know that NAND chips are binary, so how come that isn't 274GB (2^38)?  Does this mean Samsung has built-in 10% OP?  (I'm guessing it does.)

Take a look at this reference.  Figure 4 on page 4 may help visualize the overall impact, and helps to explain the benefit of TRIM.

As to how much OP you should aim for, that all depends.  Partly that could depend on use scenario--write vs read-only activity.  I read a lot of recommendations that suggest anywhere from 10% to 25% OP, but I suspect that wide variance may have more to do with different interpretations of "OP".  For instance, a recommendation of 25% could mean, "25% overall, including the manufacturer's built-in amount."  OTOH, a 10% recommendation could mean, "10% of the space available to the user."

As for quantifying how much a difference OP makes, take a look at Figures 2 and 3 in the above reference, and also this reference.  It looks like 20% (including manufacturer's built-in amount) is a good figure to target.

I left 10% unallocated on my SSD and am assuming Samsung built-in another 10%.  If that assumption is wrong, well I've got multiple partitions so there's going to be some additional OP from free space here and there that will make up for any misguided assumption.




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Mar 31st, 2014 at 8:17pm
Dan,

Great answer. I'm just starting to read your links but one thing initially confused me....


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 7:20pm:
For example, my Samsung EVO is 250GB.We all know that NAND chips are binary, so how come that isn't 274GB (2^38)?Does this mean Samsung has built-in 10% OP?(I'm guessing it does.)


My 240 GB Intel 520 series shows as 223.57 GiB in Disk Management. I used to think this was a GB to GiB conversion but I now realize it is related to 7% inbuilt overprovisioning.

If I put 210 GiB of data on my SSD I have (256-210)/210 = 22%  overprovisioning. Correct?

I saw one reference to Samsung and Crucial not having inbuilt overprovisioning.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/ssd-520-sandforce-review-benchmark,3124.html

Edit... My numbers don't make sense. Maybe the full size of my SSD is 240 GiB and not 256 GiB. Dan, what size does your SSD show in Disk Management?

Or maybe SSD size is measured in GB instead of GiB. Just like HDs. People with SSDs seem to have the 7% size reduction in Disk Management.

IFW says my SSD is 228937 MiB. That is 240 GB.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Dan Goodell on Apr 1st, 2014 at 5:51am
My experience has been that SSDs are measured just like HDDs--in decimal GBs.  My 250GB Samsung shows as "232.88 GB" (GiB) in Disk Mgmt, just like my 250GB HDD.


My comment, "We all know that NAND chips are binary, so how come that isn't 274GB (2^38)" was on another issue: the difference between silicon chips and magnetic surfaces.

HDDs are mechanical devices.  They consist of coated magnetic platters, and the amount the manufacturer can store on the platter is simply a matter of how close together he can space the magnetic flux changes and how much surface area he has to work with.  Storage quantities don't have to grow by binary multiples.  We see that evidence in all sorts of odd sizes like 40GB or 100GB or 750GB.

But memory chips are completely different.  Imagine, if you will, how a memory manufacturer might make a SIMM of exactly 1 million bytes.  He can't.  Because chips, by their very nature, come only in binary multiples.

So if that's true, why is it that we can get a handful of memory chips to simulate a hard drive of exactly 250 billion bytes?  The only way you can do that is by using binary multiples and preventing the use of part of it (by the user, anyway).

So what I'm saying is there must be more memory inside this plastic Samsung case because it's impossible to put exactly 250 decimal GB's in there.  The controller can tell the outside world there's only 250 GB available, and the manufacturer can allocate the rest of it for some other purpose, such as overprovisioning.

2^38 works out to just over 274 billion, so I suspect that's the total of actual NAND chips inside this Samsung case.  Only 250 billion is available to the user, which would leave up to 10.9% available for manufacturer use.  My initial assumption was Samsung might be using most of this as internal OP, and further research proves this out--this AnandTech review indicates 9.05% is set aside on the 250GB 840 EVO.




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 1st, 2014 at 2:22pm
Dan,

All clear now.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 5th, 2014 at 7:50pm
@ Brian and @ Dan Goodell


NightOwl wrote on Mar 31st, 2014 at 1:19am:
so it will have to wait a day before I can continue

Well, as you can see, I'm bucking a strong headwind on this project--it's taken me a lot longer than *a day* to get back, but not that I haven't been thinking about it....dang anyway....

So....to answer your questions, Brian, and comment on Dan's suggestions:


Brian wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:29pm:
Leaving the details for later, are you planning to run two HDs and one SSD? That is my setup.

It looks like that would be the *best* setup--1 SSD for the OS(s), and 1 HDD for Data, and the 2nd HDD for images and backup of important data.


Dan Goodell wrote on Mar 30th, 2014 at 1:48pm:
Better to have that second backup copy be on an external drive that can be stored elsewhere.

And, yes, backup to external USB HDD a redundant image and important data to cover the loss of the system for whatever reason--to cover catastrophic loss (fire), probably off site storage would be necessary!


Brian wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:29pm:
What is your WinXP partition size and the amount of free space?

Approx. numbers--the WinXP OS on the HDD partition is 97 GB, and only 23.7 GB have been used.  I have installed all programs that are used with this OS on that partition.  A small 512 MB pagefile  is on the OS partition, and a larger 8.7 GB pagefile is on the second HDD.


Brian wrote on Mar 29th, 2014 at 5:29pm:
Edit... I can talk you through this. Initially you would install the SSD connected to SATA port 1 on the MB. Presumably the same port your WinXP HD is now using. Boot from a BIBM CD and install BIBM to the SSD. Set up a boot item for WinXP and boot WinXP from its current HD.


So, reading the above quote, it sounds like you are suggesting that the SATA cable from the current HDD is being disconnected from that HDD and connected to the SSD.  But, then you're talking about creating a *boot item* in BIBM for the WinXP on the HDD--but, I think that would require the WinXP HDD being hooked up at the same time as the SSD--so, that needs clarifying.  I know you were giving a brief gist of the steps, but something is lost in translation there.  I suspect both drives need to be hooked up at the same time--yes?  Instead of *SATA port 1*, are you talking about *same SATA controller*--but another port on that controller--or what am I missing.....?

Probably need to stop there--the devil is in the details and you need *the rest of the story*!  Here is my motherboard:  GIGABYTE GA-P55A-UD4P  GA-P55A-UD4P (rev. 1.0), Socket LGA 1156, Intel® P55 Chipset

And the User Manual:  Found on this page:  http://www.gigabyte.us/products/product-page.aspx?pid=3238#manual

Third item from the bottom at the time of this post--English/1002/pdf/19.90 MB/2009/12/02.

Quick summary--this motherboard comes with 3 SATA controllers: 

1.  the Intel P55 Chipset which controls 6 on board SATA-2 ports (3 GB/s),

2.  a JMB362 chip that controls 2 eSATA-2 ports (3 GB/s) on the back I/O panel, and

3.  a Marvell 9128 chip that controls 2 on board SATA-3 ports (6 GB/s)

The motherboard is about 3 years old.  All the SATA controllers came from the factory set in what's called *IDE* mode--meaning that the *AHCI* or *RAID*--the other two modes available in the BIOS would not be available during OS installation.  *IDE* mode works without any special drivers being added during WinXP installation.  Both *AHCI* and *RAID* do require using the F6 routine to add those special drivers during installation.

When I installed WinXP on this system 3 years ago, I didn't think I would need *AHCI*, and I thought that *AHCI* enabled controllers caused problems with using Ghost2003 for imaging based on some comments on the forum in the past.  (Recently, Brian, I think you have said you have no problems with AHCI being set in the BIOS and used with Ghost2003--so that information was likely wrong!)

But, if I understand correctly now--SSDs require AHCI enabled in order to improve performance.  But, once you install WinXP without the AHCI driver, you can not simply change the BIOS setting--if you do, you will get a non-boot BSOD error until you switch the SATA controller back to the IDE mode and not the AHCI mode.  So, if I tried to hookup the SSD to the current P55 chipset and tried to change the SATA controller to AHCI mode for the benefit of the SSD, then I think my WinXP HDD OS will not boot, and if I tried to place an image of that WinXP HDD OS on the SSD, same problem would occur--that OS image is not AHCI capable!  I would have to leave the P55 SATA controller set to IDE mode--and I assume that will reduce the SSD's performance.

Did a Goggle search, and found this and other sites claiming of being able to enable AHCI on an existing WinXP system:  http://forums.vr-zone.com/troubleshooting-zone-technical-enquiries/195867-switching-sata-ide-compatibility-mode-ahci-windows.html 

That website is 7 years old, and I don't know what the possible *unintended* consequences might be--anyone have any experience with this?  I guess I could create a backup image and test to see if it works--and restore the image if it doesn't--but, how can one know if other problems might not crop up later even if it seems to work initially?!

So, almost out of *Remaining characters*--so stopping here and will finish in the next post.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:10pm
@ Brian and @ Dan Goodell

So, to continue....

So, taking a step back for a moment...my current HDD with the WinXP OS on it has two hidden partitions available to have an alternate OS installed on them.  I would just have to take care of hiding one partition and making active the other partition.  The two downsides are 1.  that I would be installing Win7 on a partition that was created by the WinXP formatting program on the installation disc (or might have been PartitionMagic--can't remember for sure now--might have used both!)--so cylinder aligned and not sector aligned, and 2.  the Win7 OS would be on a SATA controller that is in IDE mode and not AHCI mode.  It looks like in Vista and Win7, a registry change can be done to switch the OS from IDE mode to AHCI mode, and then a reboot and switch in the BIOS to AHCI mode takes care of it:  http://support.microsoft.com/kb/922976.

Can BIBM take a cylinder aligned partition and make it sector aligned--or does that have to be aligned on the whole drive, and not just a single partition?  If whole drive, would that alignment have any negative side effects on the existing WinXP partition--or will it just effect what imaging tools can be used without problems?

So, the Marvell 9128 chip that controls 2 on board SATA-3 ports (6 GB/s) on the motherboard seems to hold promise.  I believe all (most?) of the SSDs are SATA-3 drives--so I guess it makes sense to use a controller that matches the device!  I came across this webpage talking about why your system may not show the same performance as seen by others when doing benchmark tests:  http://randythetechprofessor.com/when-an-ssd-will-not-increase-your-computers-speed  .  If your system doesn't support the max speed, you can never reach those when doing your own benchmarks.  (And speaking of benchmarking--can't remember where I saw it stated--probably in the comment section of one of the review sites for SSDs--but one person said the average person should not try benchmarking--it's just wearing out your SSD by working it so hard with excess reads and writes--and the *professionals* have already done it for the same model you own!  But, then, how do you know if your SSD is performing well without some sort of measure?)

I still could not image my current WinXP OS to the SSD on the Marvell chip if I have set it to use AHCI--so that downside will still be present--but, I will probably be abandoning that WinXP OS sooner than later if it going to be too risky to continue using--another variable that one just can't know about for sure.

I don't know if there are any issues with the OS being on a device that is not using the main north-south chipset on a motherboard--anyone have any experience?

So, those are the multiple confounding variables that I have come across in trying to determine the best way to proceed given my hardware setup (I suspect there are more, and I'm too ignorant to know what they are--what's that saying:  Ignorance is bliss!).  I guess I need some guidance as to the best direction to take.  I know I need help with using BIBM--that's also probably the best way to control boot sequences--but, there's so many options that are unclear to the novice user of that program.....I'd like not to make too many mistakes along the way  ;) !


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:29pm
@ NightOwl

Just to address one issue at this stage. If you change your BIOS to AHCI, does WinXP boot? This page suggests it should....

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=294

If WinXP doesn't boot do you have Intel SATA/AHCI drivers for your controller? They can be installed when WinXP is running.

I've installed AHCI drivers to non booting systems but I doubt that will be necessary.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:44pm

NightOwl wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 7:50pm:
I suspect both drives need to be hooked up at the same time--yes? 


Yes. SSD on MB port 1. WinXP HD on MB port 2. Data HD on MB port 3. Avoid the Marvel ports until we are finished the project. I have two SATA III ASMedia controller ports and they didn't play nicely with BIBM. The Intel ports were easy to use. A friend tried these ports and thought they were slower than the Intel SATA II ports.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:10pm:
Can BIBM take a cylinder aligned partition and make it sector aligned-


Yes. Easy.

I'll leave other comments until the AHCI situation is resolved but I've adapted some tutorials to suit your computer. They may help you understand what's to come.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:47pm
Create a BIBM CD

https://terabyteunlimited.com/product-download.php

1.25a is the latest version.

double click makedisk.exe, next
dot in BootIt Bare Metal, next
dot in I accept the agreement, next
select both Image for DOS (GUI) and Scripting Support, next
dot in Mouse Support Enabled, next
dot in VESA Video, next
dot in Video Mode 1024*768 - 64K Colors, next
dot in Normal, next
don't choose any Device Options, next
tick in Enable USB 1.1 (UHCI), next
tick in Align partitions on 2048 Sectors, next
in Additional bootitbm.ini Options put TimeZone=PST+8PDT, next        (the timezone sign is reversed)
enter Name and Product Key, Next
select your CD burner drive letter (you can use a CD-RW or a CD-R disc)
Finish


This installs BIBM to Drive 0 and leaves the other HDs alone. Primary Partitions will be "limited" and you won't have support for more than 4 primary partitions. This can be changed at any time in the future by simply ticking a box.

Installing to unallocated free space on your SSD

Boot from the BootIt BM CD
Setup... Click OK to install BootIt ...
Setup... Don't put a tick in Change all MBR type drives to EMBR and click No so you don't "enable support for more than 4 primary partitions"
Setup... Click Yes to let setup choose the partition for you    (even though you don't have a partition yet)
Setup... Click Yes to install to a dedicated partition. No tick in Install to any drive
Setup... Click OK to begin
Setup... Click OK for Setup completed successfully
click Close
Setup... Click OK for the Remove the boot disk and click OK to restart

BM will boot to a Boot Menu
Click Maintenance

This is the BIBM desktop

Have a look in Partition Work
Drive 0
You will see the BIBM partition. About 8 MiB (plus or minus a few MiB)



Make sure the Boot Edit is OK for WinXP on Drive 1

Click Partition Work
You should see BIBM on Drive 0
Drive 1 should be your old first HD with WinXP and the Extended partition. Volumes are indented.
Close

click Boot Edit
You should see an item for WinXP
Select it and click Edit (the following might aleady be present but could need editing)
HD 1 (drop down arrow)
Boot (drop down arrow)     select your WinXP partition
Identity field.. change the name to WinXP_HD or something similar
Memo field.. any comment you like
Icon button.. choose WinXP icon
Make sure there is a tick in the first Swap box (not the One Time Option choice). This is for booting an OS not on Drive 0.

In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions. The Extended partitions will probably be called MBR0 or MBR1. If you select the Extended partition and click Volumes you will see your logical volumes.

Click OK and OK again.

Click Resume and boot the WinXP_HD OS.



Copy the WinXP partition on Drive 1 to unallocated free space on Drive 0 (the SSD)

Partition Work
Drive 1
Select the WinXP partition
Copy
Drive 0
Select the Free Space
Paste
In the Name field type WinXP_SSD or something similar (make sure the name is different from WinXP on Drive 1)
OK
When completed, click Close
You can now see the WinXP partition on Drive 0
Click Close on Work with Partitions


Boot Edit
Add
HD 0 (drop down arrow)
Boot (drop down arrow)   select your WinXP_SSD partition
Identity field.. call it WinXP_SSD or something similar
Memo field.. any comment you like
Icon button.. choose WinXP icon
Put a tick in Default
In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions.
In HD 0 select WinXP_SSD and use the Move Up button to put it in the first slot. Slot 0.
In HD 1 select WinXP and click Hide
Click OK
Select your WinXP_HD in the Menu Items list, the one on the HD and click Edit
In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions.
In HD 0 select WinXP_SSD and click Hide
Click OK and OK again.

Click Resume and you now have two items in the Boot Menu



Set up a Boot Edit for Win7 and install Win7 to a partition on the SSD.

Partition Work
Drive 0
Select the Free Space
Create
Name.. Win7
File System.. NTFS
Size 50000
No other alterations, click OK
Leave Cluster size Auto on the Format windows and Click OK
OK again
The Win7 partition is in the EMBR Partitions list for Drive 0




Boot Edit
Add
HD 0 (drop down arrow)
Boot (drop down arrow)     select your Win7 partition
Identity field.. call it Win7 or something similar
Memo field.. any comment you like
Icon button.. choose Win7 icon
In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions.
In HD 0 select Win7 and use the Move Up button to put it in the first slot. Slot 0
In HD 0 select WinXP_SSD and click Hide
In HD 1 select WinXP and click Hide. So two hidden OS.
Click OK

Select your WinXP_HD in the Menu Items list, the one on the HD and click Edit
In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions.
In HD 0 select Win7 and click Hide, WinXP_SSD will already show as Hidden. So two hidden OS.
Click OK

Select your WinXP_SSD in the Menu Items list and click Edit
In MBR Details on the right you should see all your partitions.
In HD 0 select Win7 and click Hide, WinXP on HD 1 will already show as Hidden. So two hidden OS.
Click OK and OK again..

Click Resume
Try to boot the Win7 OS. It will fail of course and give an error message but this procedure loads the relevant partition table (as seen in MBR Details) and makes the Win7 partition Active
Press Alt Ctrl Delete to Restart
Boot from the Win7 boot disk
Install Win7. Install to the 50000 MiB partition on HD0 and you won't get a SRP. If you mess up the install (you won't) just delete the partition and start again.

BIBM will be Deactivated by the Win7 install. When you are ready to use BIBM again, boot the BIBM CD and select Reactivate BootIt Bare Metal. OK. You will be instructed to remove the boot disk and click OK to restart the computer.



Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Dan Goodell on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:06am
re: IDE to AHCI...

Win7 is easy to switch from IDE to AHCI post-install.  I've successfully used this easy reference several times.  (It's basically the same as the Microsoft reference you found, except not as wordy and easier to follow.)  All it involves is making a simple registry edit, then switch your BIOS to AHCI mode and away you go.

Switching XP is a bit more difficult but still doable.  You need to first track down the XP AHCI driver for your controller, though.  Although I generally prefer starting over with a clean install, I have used this reference successfully a few times for customers who had software they couldn't reinstall if we started over (so therefore a clean install was out of the question).

You should be able to make a safety image of your XP partition just in case, then test the above reference and see if you can convert XP to AHCI mode.




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 6th, 2014 at 3:46pm
@ Brian


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:29pm:
Just to address one issue at this stage. If you change your BIOS to AHCI, does WinXP boot? This page suggests it should....    http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=294

Unfortunately, no, it does not boot--and that's because the WinXP HDD is connected to that SATA controller that's being changed from the IDE mode to the AHCI mode--and the drivers ACHI mode don't exist yet for that SATA controller.

Boy, did the boot sequence really change with the P55 chipset set to AHCI!  The normal POST where the BIOS shows the attached HDDs and optical drives showed nothing.  Then a new screen not seen before for the Intel ACHI controller showed up and that's where the HDDs and the optical drives were enumerated.  Then the system switch to loading Windows--the first screen where there's a lot of HDD activity but nothing happening on the screen--then a BSOD.

The link you reference appears to be fairly old--it's using terminology that was greatly confusing when SATA first began to become common.  I think TeraByte is using the term *IDE* to mean what is really PATA (Parallel ATA) as opposed to SATA (Serial ATA).  In reality, I think both PATA and SATA are considered IDE storage devices. 

In that reference, they are assuming you have your OS on the PATA HDD and that the SATA controller has not been *enable* as yet.  They say to enable the SATA controller with AHCI also enabled--but no HDD attached, and then while booting still from the PATA controller, the SATA controller will be detected and you can add the SATA drivers and at that point the WinXP OS will have the AHCI driver loaded for the SATA controller.  The OS can now be transferred to the SATA HDD, and WinXP should be successful in loading those SATA drivers and will able to use them--booting successfully.

That solution is somewhat the same as what I referenced above:


NightOwl wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 7:50pm:
Did a Goggle search, and found this and other sites claiming of being able to enable AHCI on an existing WinXP system:   http://forums.vr-zone.com/troubleshooting-zone-technical-enquiries/195867-switching-sata-ide-compatibility-mode-ahci-windows.html%C2%A0 

He moved the SATA HDD from the current IDE mode SATA controller to a second SATA controller that was still in IDE mode, then rebooted and change that original controller to AHCI mode, then booted to Windows and let the OS detect and add drivers to that controller that's now in AHCI mode.  Then switch the SATA HDD back to the now AHCI enabled controller and rebooted, etc  .....


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:29pm:
If WinXP doesn't boot do you have Intel SATA/AHCI drivers for your controller? They can be installed when WinXP is running.

Yes, I have the drivers from the motherboard's website--most current (and from the motherboard driver disc--older versions). Dan posted a reference as to how to do that change to ACHI mode--do you have a reference that you have successfully used? 

Every time I read the *how to change SATA from IDE mode to ACHI mode*, in the comments one sees many successes--but also many failures--it seems like many of the failures are because folks really don't have the correct drivers to load, but others are unclear why it does not work--I'm nervous as to how well this will all go .......



Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:18pm
@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 3:46pm:
do you have a reference that you have successfully used?


Installing in Windows? I might have been dreaming when I wrote that. Try Dan's method first. If you have no success the following should work. It always has worked for me. I'll post the following now as time is running short for me too. I leave for Cape York next Sunday. Fishing for a week.

You will need the Intel Floppy "Press F6" drivers. One of them should be iaahci.inf. Copy all "Press F6" files to a folder called "Extracted".


Making a TBOS USB flash drive (UFD)
If you have already installed IFW, TBIView and TBOSDT. (using the "ifw_en_setup.exe" you downloaded from your Downloads web page) then open C:\Program Files\TeraByte Unlimited\TeraByte OSD Tool Suite Pro\dos_tbos
If you haven't done the above then simply go to your TeraByte download site and get "TeraByte OS Deployment Tool Suite Pro V1.51". Open the dos_tbos folder.

double click maketbos.exe
Next, I accept
tick all 6 boxes
select your UFD
USB Layout                       Partition - MBR FAT/FAT32 Partition (Int13h Extensions)
Geometry Calculation Method      Default - Use Device
Make the UFD
Copy the "Extracted" folder to the UFD


Change the BIOS to AHCI.

boot the TBOS UFD
at > type   tbosdt (and press Enter)
at @C:\> type   run osdtool.tbs (and press Enter)
You should see TeraByte OSD Tool Script 4.10
Physical Drive (press Enter)
Your WinXP partition will be on HD1 (the UFD is HD0)
select the WinXP partition (and press Enter)
Enter again
Install Drivers (and press Enter)
Install a specific driver (and press Enter)
The "Extracted" folder should be selected  (press Enter)
select iaahci.inf (and press Enter)
Auto Detect (press Enter)
Do not filter on Hardware ID (press Enter)
Start install driver iaahci.inf (press Enter)
You will see Backing up Registry, then Operation successful
(press Enter to continue)
Go back to menu
Exit
Alt Ctrl Del

WinXP starts to boot, then you see a Command Window, then a restart.
WinXP boots, you will have to login

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 6th, 2014 at 11:07pm
Slightly off topic but demonstrates what TBOS can do.

An 8 year old Dell laptop with WinXP and a 60 GB PATA HD. The OS partition was imaged and the image was restored to a 6 year old Dell desktop computer with a 640 GB SATA HD. AHCI.

Restored WinXP on the desktop failed to load. 7B BSOD occurred as expected.

I used the TBOS UFD as described above but I chose
Remove installed drivers (like a Sysprep)
Remove all installed drivers
Install a specific driver
iaahci.inf as above

WinXP loaded. There was a wait of a few minutes before the keyboard and mouse worked. Then a series of "Welcome to the Found New Hardware Wizard". A restart was requested. WinXP works fine but needs a few drivers installed.




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:22pm
@ Brian

So, catching up....


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:44pm:
Yes. SSD on MB port 1. WinXP HD on MB port 2. Data HD on MB port 3. Avoid the Marvel ports until we are finished the project.

Understood.


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:44pm:
I'll leave other comments until the AHCI situation is resolved

Working on that later this morning.  I'll get back after I have results.


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:47pm:
Create a BIBM CD

Have successfully done this.

Have read thru the rest of the outline--couple questions:


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:47pm:
Copy the WinXP partition on Drive 1 to unallocated free space on Drive 0 (the SSD)

That will create a copy of the same size on the SSD as from the HDD--approx. 97 GB--correct?  Can this be copied using a smaller size?  Or, after copy, can it be shrunk to approx. 50 GB--don't really need 97 GB?


Brian wrote on Apr 5th, 2014 at 10:47pm:
Set up a Boot Edit for Win7 and install Win7 to a partition on the SSD.

During all the *Boot Edit* steps, the added OSs are all hdden--correct?  It's not until one runs the program from a re-boot and you select a boot menu item that it is made *active*--correct?  And, when re-booting, selecting a different OS will hide the current active and make the new selected OS active--correct?

Does one select and set a *default* OS to boot?  Does BIBM retain that last selected OS as default until something else is selected?  If a *default* is selected, does it revert back to that selection on each boot--I assume so?


Brian wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:18pm:
If you have no success the following should work. It always has worked for me. I'll post the following now as time is running short for me too. I leave for Cape York next Sunday. Fishing for a week.

Impressive outline of using TBOS!  If I get stuck along the way, I understand you're going fishing and I'll have to wait for your return--hopefully that won't be a problem.

Thanks for your detailed outlines and help up to this point.



Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 8th, 2014 at 3:15pm
@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
That will create a copy of the same size on the SSD as from the HDD--approx. 97 GB--correct?Can this be copied using a smaller size?Or, after copy, can it be shrunk to approx. 50 GB--don't really need 97 GB?


I was going to suggest that. Yes, the copy will create the same sized WinXP partition on your SSD. As your BIBM Settings, Global Geometry and Alignment will have "Align on 2048 Sectors" selected, the partition on the SSD will be 2048 Sectors aligned. Actually, confirm there is a tick in "Align on 2048 Sectors" before creating the Copy.

In Partition Work, Drive 0, click View MBR. The LBA for the WinXP partition (start sector) should be a multiple of 2048. Don't take any notice of the BIBM LBA.

To Resize, select the partition in Partition Work, click Resize, OK for the error check, type in a New Size, OK, Continue, Close the Completed box.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
During all the *Boot Edit* steps, the added OSs are all hdden--correct?It's not until one runs the program from a re-boot and you select a boot menu item that it is made *active*--correct?And, when re-booting, selecting a different OS will hide the current active and make the new selected OS active--correct?


That's correct. When you boot an OS from "Resume" (Boot Menu) the OS partition is made Active and the partition tables you see in "MBR Details" of Boot Edit are loaded.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
Does one select and set a *default* OS to boot?Does BIBM retain that last selected OS as default until something else is selected?If a *default* is selected, does it revert back to that selection on each boot--I assume so?


In BIBM Settings you can use a Timeout. Let's say you choose 3 seconds. At the 3 second mark the Default Boot Item will be booted. If you choose a Timeout of 0 (zero) then no OS will be booted automatically. The Timeout is 0 when BIBM is first installed.

Hopefully the weather in Weipa will be OK on Sunday. This is my concern...

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDQ65002.shtml

Edit... What size is the SSD?
I suggested 50000 MiB for the Win7 partition but use whatever size you like.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Dan Goodell on Apr 9th, 2014 at 3:21am

NightOwl wrote on Apr 8th, 2014 at 12:22pm:
Brian wrote on 04/05/14 at 8:47pm:
Copy the WinXP partition on Drive 1 to unallocated free space on Drive 0 (the SSD)

That will create a copy of the same size on the SSD as from the HDD--approx. 97 GB--correct?Can this be copied using a smaller size?Or, after copy, can it be shrunk to approx. 50 GB--don't really need 97 GB?


As I mentioned in Reply #2, you might want to give that some forethought.  Do you plan to keep using XP for the long haul?  You may eventually decide XP is not worth keeping around for much longer.  If you decide to replace it with a different OS, will the partition size be adequate for the replacement OS?

Of course, you can always resize partitions later with BIBM, but it could make things easier in the long run if you plan ahead.

You may well decide that 50GB is sufficient for Win8 or Win9 or a duplicate Win7, so I'm not saying don't shrink it.  I'm just suggesting you do so with some forethought to future needs.





Brian wrote on Apr 6th, 2014 at 4:18pm:
I leave for Cape York next Sunday. Fishing for a week.

BTW, Here was my daughter's adventure to that part of the world:  Failed Cape Melville




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 19th, 2014 at 12:52am
@ NightOwl

How is the project progressing?

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm
@ Brian

Were you able to go on your fishing trip?  Hope the waters were not too rough!


Quote:
How is the project progressing?

Well, ... not well....if you have not noticed, I'm dragging my feet quite a bit!  I am using every *excuse* not to proceed--I'm lacking confidence in making all these changes, and I don't want to screw something up that I can not recover from!

I did successfully enable the AHCI controller setting for WinXP!  But, it has had some side effects:

The motherboard BIOS loads a whole new controller software (Intel AHCI) which slows down the POST process by 15-20 second while it loads, and then detects the attached HDDs and optical drives. 

The new controller software is not compatible with the old DOS SATA driver that allows access to the SATA optical drives in IDE move--i.e. the old DOS driver will not find the SATA optical drives--so a drive letter is not assigned.  I have to load Ghost from a floppy disk or from a FAT 16 or FAT32 partition on the HDD.  Luckily I am able to work around that, but that may be why others said Ghost and AHCI settings were not compatible.  How do you load Ghost when you have tested it--using floppies, or are you placing Ghost in the hidden boot sector of a bootable optical disc?  My boot disc works fine--the AHCI controller finds the hidden boot sector without any problem, just can not access any data on the optical disc after booting.

Ghost is 1/3 slower in the AHCI mode--both in creation and image verification--not the best result for using DOS Ghost!  Can't say I have noticed any change in performance while in Windows.

I tested, and WinXP has no problem if I now switch back and forth between IDE mode and AHCI mode--I have left it in AHCI mode for this last week to see if there are any problems--so far none I can detect.

Hmmm...I hope switching the AHCI mode for using a SSD is all worth it!!!  With that hit on speed for DOS Ghost, I probably will need to create and try the Image for Linux program to see if that works better with the AHCI controller.


As for the BIBM disc.  I apparently chose the wrong display setting when I created it--256 colors instead of 64k colors.  When I booted, I could hardly see the print in the various boxes!  I was able to manually change the display setting, and that helped--but, if I switch to another part of the program, the display reverted back to the 256 colors and couldn't see things again.  I re-made the disc and that problem is gone now.

Apparently, the *mouse support* only exists if you have a PS/1 serial based mouse, and not a USB mouse.  My system only comes with a PS/1 port for the keyboard.  The BIOS offers the ability to use a USB keyboard with *legacy support*--but, nothing about using a USB mouse!  There is a header on this motherboard that allows for a serial port--have to install a plug-in adapter on the backside where other add-on cards would be mounted, with the serial port on it, and run the port ribbon to the header.  I purchased the port, and I just happen to have a very old serial mouse in my spare parts box, and am now able to have mouse support--which is much nicer than the tab and arrow and space keys!

Anyway--this last week my work schedule changed and I didn't have as much free time--so that's been my *excuse of the week* to avoid proceeding--didn't want to start something I might not be able to finish!

With all these programs being *new to me* in terms of using them--as I mentioned above I'm struggling with a sense of confidence--and that applies to once I get Win7 installed as well--all the installing of programs that I have previously used in WinXP (if it's possible), and having to adjust to new programs because WinXP versions will not work on Win7.  And, then there's all the Win7 settings that have to be found and learned how to set and use--just not happily looking forward to the challenge and process.

So, going to do a backup this afternoon, and then see if I can work my way through the setup outline you've given me above--again thanks for that--hopefully I'll be giving you a positive report later.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 4:56pm
@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
Were you able to go on your fishing trip?Hope the waters were not too rough!


The cyclone completely missed Weipa. Here I am in sunscreen mode with a nice thread-fin salmon.


pic-2-2-4_bjka.jpg (168 KB | 549 )

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 9:56pm
@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
How do you load Ghost when you have tested it--using floppies, or are you placing Ghost in the hidden boot sector of a bootable optical disc? 


I use Ghost 2003 on a USB flash drive or the HD. I don't use it on a CD anymore.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
I did successfully enable the AHCI controller setting for WinXP!


Which method did you use?


NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
Apparently, the *mouse support* only exists if you have a PS/1 serial based mouse, and not a USB mouse.


I use a USB mouse and I've only seen one computer where a USB mouse didn't work with BIBM. Strangely, when I upgraded the HD the USB mouse started working.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=514





NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
I'm struggling with a sense of confidence--


No need to worry. Any mistakes can be rectified with an image restore.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 3:21pm:
With that hit on speed for DOS Ghost, I probably will need to create and try the Image for Linux program to see if that works better with the AHCI controller. 


I think you will be very impressed with IFL. In my computers it is slightly faster than IFW and 30% faster than IFD.

You haven't told us the SSD size.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 10:04pm
Making an IFL boot disk... (I prefer a UFD as it boots faster)

double click makedisk.exe, next
Custom Settings, next
dot in I accept the agreement, next
tick in Align Partitions on 2048 sectors
ignore Miscellaneous, next
ignore Additional ifl.ini Options, next
Product Key (it's a short one compared to IFW), next
Normal Boot, next
Normal Boot, next
BIBM Licensed Name, Product Key
Ignore the BIBM page if you don't have BIBM
select your CD burner drive letter (you can use a CD-RW or a CD-R disc). Or USB flash drive. Or ISO File.
If using a UFD I choose
USB Layout... Partition - FAT/FAT32 partition (Int13h Extensions)
Geometry Calculation Method... Use Device
Finish

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 10:12pm
You can use the same UFD for IFD, IFL, BIBM, TBWinRE, TBOS, etc.

I create an "Entire Drive" image of the UFD after makedisk has created the boot UFD. I use IFW for this (image and restore) and simply restore the image to the UFD when I want to use a particular app.

You can restore the partition part of this image to the HD and run the app from the HD. It boots from the BIBM Boot Menu.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 11:25pm
@ Brian

Last two posts--interesting, but getting ahead of where I'm at for the moment--we'll have to come back here, or start other thread(s)--but, for now--I'm stuck!

I installed BIBM on the SSD without problems--had to spend some time hooking the drives to different SATA ports to determine which was Port 0, 1, 2, etc., but got that figured out (no documentation in the owner's manual!)  Masters on each channel come first, then one starts counting the Slaves to get the correct sequence.


Brian wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 9:56pm:
You haven't told us the SSD size. 

I was going to mention that last post, but forgot--I finally decided on a Samsung 840 Pro, 256 GB.  It was the 5 year warranty, and the preponderance of above average praise that convinced me.


Brian wrote on Apr 22nd, 2014 at 9:56pm:
I use a USB mouse and I've only seen one computer where a USB mouse didn't work with BIBM. Strangely, when I upgraded the HD the USB mouse started working.

After the BIBM install on the SSD, still no USB mouse support--but the serial mouse works just fine.

So, I was able to configure BIBM to successfully boot the WinXP_HD using the Boot Menu.  (One detail that was missing--the two other OS boot partitions on the HDD that are (were?) technically Hidden before using BIBM--where not Hidden when I first booted to the HDD through the Boot Menu--so they showed up and were assigned drive letters.  Didn't cause a problem--just didn't expect it.  I went back and Hide them in the Boot Edit section for that Menu item.) 

But, after doing the copy of WinXP from the HDD to the SSD, and going through the Boot Edit to set up the menu for the WinXP_SSD copy, I'm getting the following:


Quote:
Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt: 

<Windows root>\system32\hal.dll.

Please re-install a copy of the above file.


Now, the last time I saw that message, it was because the boot partition I was trying to boot from was not set *Active*.  But, I checked in PartitoinWorks--the MBR said it's *Active*, and the BootIt EMBRM has no status.  And the WinXP_SSD is in slot #0 at the top, and the BootIt EMBRM is in the second slot #1 below.

The only difference I see in this second Boot Edit is not checking the *Swap* box, and moving the WinXP_SSD to slot 0.  Is the BootIt EMBRM supposed to be *Hidden*?

I deleted the menu item, deleted the partition, and then re-copied it and re-did the Boot Menu setup per your outline with the same result.

Hope this sounds like something you've come across before--I don't know what to do next as far as this problem is concerned.

Thankfully, the Boot Menu still is letting me boot to the WinXP on the HDD!

Maybe, I'll just attempt to create the Win7 partition on the SSD and see if I can get that to work properly.

Of course, suggestions--especially good ones--are welcomed!




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 11:59pm
@ NightOwl


NightOwl wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 11:25pm:
Windows could not start because the following file is missing or corrupt:

<Windows root>\system32\hal.dll.

Please re-install a copy of the above file. 


That is usually a boot.ini error. Is WinXP_HD in Slot #0 of its MBR Details? Or Slot #1? If it is Slot #1 then WinXP_SSD should be in Slot #1 also. The partition number in boot.ini should match the relative primary partition number. So WinXP in Slot #0 would have partition(1) in boot.ini. WinXP in Slot #1 would have partition(2) in boot.ini if another primary partition was in Slot #0.

In Partition Work select WinXP_SSD and click Edit File. Double click boot.ini and look at the partition number. Is it 1 or 2?

To fix the issue you can either move WinXP_SSD to the relevant slot in MBR Details or you can edit the partition number in boot.ini.

Post your boot.ini if you have trouble.


http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=159

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=234

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=130


Quote:
Is the BootIt EMBRM supposed to be *Hidden*?

It makes no difference. Windows can't see the data anyway.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am
@ Brian


Brian wrote on Apr 23rd, 2014 at 11:59pm:
That is usually a boot.ini error. Is WinXP_HD in Slot #0 of its MBR Details? Or Slot #1? If it is Slot #1 then WinXP_SSD should be in Slot #1 also.

WinXP_HD was in slot 1 of the original HDD, not 0--so that's why the error when I put it in slot 0 on the SSD!  I actually stumbled on the *solution* shortly after my last post, and before I read your reply.  But, it wasn't until I read your reply that the reasoning became clear!  Oh, boy--I had forgot all about that issue--I've not dealt with in a long time!  Just followed your outline *blindly*--didn't *think* it through!

So, as usual, life in other areas have been getting in the way, so I have not proceeded beyond getting WinXP onto the SSD drive (and testing to make sure everything seems to be doing fine--boy, is the SSD much faster in loading programs--boot up time is only marginally faster) , and the next couple days will not allow me much spare time as well.

But, I have been looking at what's ahead and started looking at Image for Linux.  The user guide, similar to the BIBM guide, is intimidating--again lots of options to choose from, and it's clear as mud which ones are critical and which can be ignored (at least for now)!

Some general imaging questions:

1.  Should the boot file for Win7 be generalized with the BCDEDIT before using with either Ghost or Image for Linux.  Or, is that not an issue with the Image for Linux program.  I thought I saw somewhere that TeraByte recommended using a generalized BCD as well.  I looked at the BCD Editor guide that's on one of the Webpages regarding using the BCD Editor ( http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=318  )--and I could not quite understand the sequence of steps that they outlined, and how they ended up getting the final outcome that has been discussed for using the built-in Windows BCDEDIT, or if it even ends up with the same result:

BCDEDIT /set {bootmgr} device boot
BCDEDIT /set {default} device boot
BCDEDIT /set {default} osdevice boot

Any thoughts?


2.  If I use Ghost, I guess it won't be a problem restoring a partition--the issue of boot failure only occurs if doing a whole drive restore where Ghost zeros the Disk ID--does that sound correct?  (And if a whole drive restore was used on a non-generalize Ghost image, the Win7 installation disc can do a quick repair if needed if I remember correctly--yes? 

If BIBM is the boot loader--does that in any way interfere with the Repair function on the Win7 installation disc?)

3.  Image for Linux--if a whole drive image is created, can that be used to restore individual partitions separately--or do you have to restore the whole image?  I couldn't find a satisfactory answer reading the user guide.

4.  When building the Image for Linux boot disc (or USB drive), you did not include the timezone information like on the BIBM disc--is that because the Image for Linux is loading an OS, and it will capture that from the BIOS--so doesn't need to be told the timezone?

I have some other *stuff* to share that I have recently come across, but it will have to wait for a later post.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 27th, 2014 at 2:15am
@ NightOwl

Excellent. The most difficult part of this project is behind you. Installing and booting Win7 will be easy.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
Should the boot file for Win7 be generalized with the BCDEDIT before using with either Ghost or Image for Linux.Or, is that not an issue with the Image for Linux program.


I don't have my BCD generalized as I don't use Ghost except for the occasional test. IFL/IFD/IFW don't need a generalized BCD.

Your link is for BING. The BIBM page is much the same...

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=492

The command prompt edits I've used in the past (in the absence of a SRP) are...

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} device boot      
bcdedit /set {default} device boot         
bcdedit /set {default} osdevice boot      
bcdedit /set {memdiag} device boot   

But if you have BIBM these edits aren't essential as it's easy to fix a non boot due to a BCD issue. Just use BCD Edit in the above link. A 30 second job when you have done it a few times. Much faster than doing two repairs from a Win7 disk.

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=411



NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
If BIBM is the boot loader--does that in any way interfere with the Repair function on the Win7 installation disc?)


No. But using the Win7 disk isn't needed.



NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
If I use Ghost, I guess it won't be a problem restoring a partition--the issue of boot failure only occurs if doing a whole drive restore where Ghost zeros the Disk ID--does that sound correct?(And if a whole drive restore was used on a non-generalize Ghost image, the Win7 installation disc can do a quick repair if needed if I remember correctly--yes?


Doesn't sound like a problem. You will recall a drive letter issue with WinXP results in loading freezing at around the Welcome screen. A drive letter issue with Win7 occurs a little later with a dull grey blue screen. The fix for this is to zero the Disk Signature in BIBM (View MBR, Clear Sig) and follow immediately with a BCD Edit. So a zeroed Disk Signature is no problem.



NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
Image for Linux--if a whole drive image is created, can that be used to restore individual partitions separately--or do you have to restore the whole image?


You can restore individual or multiple partitions or the Entire drive. Easy.



NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
When building the Image for Linux boot disc (or USB drive), you did not include the timezone information like on the BIBM disc


Sorry. Put TimeZone=PST+8PDT in Additional ifl.ini Options when you make the boot disk. If you don't use this your IFL times will be in GMT. No big deal.


NightOwl wrote on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:08am:
I have some other *stuff* to share that I have recently come across, but it will have to wait for a later post.      


Keep it coming.

Do you plan to use IFW to create hot images or will you stick to cold images with IFL? Just curious but it is a personal choice. Both ways are fine.

I forgot to mention BIBM already contains Disk Imaging. It is IFD (GUI). Most people, not all, find it a little slower than IFL but it is very easy to create scripts so you can run one click backups and restores in BIBM. But that is for much later. IFD isn't as friendly as IFL with USB external HDs. Also, IFL supports USB3 and networking. IFD doesn't.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 27th, 2014 at 3:22am
Using IFL Options

For backups I use...

leave the ticks in Omit Page File Data, Omit Hibernation Data and Log Results to File
Validate Byte-for-Byte
Speedup Changes Only Backup (only tick this if you plan to create Differential/Incremental images later)
Compression Enhanced Speed - A
File Size Max

For Partition Restores I use...

Validate Before Restore
Validate Byte-for-Byte
Write Changed Sectors Only (if restoring to a SSD)
leave tick in Log Results to File
ignore First Track Sectors AUTO (greyed out)
ignore Resize partition
ignore New Name

For Entire Drive Restores I use...

Align to Target (not essential if restoring to the same HD)
Validate Before Restore
Validate Byte-for-Byte
Write Changed Sectors Only (if restoring to a SSD)
Log Results to File
First Track Sectors AUTO (is already enabled)

The Validate choices are up to you. For my test computer, I don't use them.

Edit... The same options are used with IFD and IFW backups/restores.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 27th, 2014 at 12:34pm
@ NightOwl

One last piece of advice. Don't forget to attempt to boot the Win7 Boot Item before you install Win7.

Off topic. HD0 in my test computer has BIBM and about twenty bootable partitions. I can replace HD0 with an empty HD, restore an Entire Drive image and everything works. The Entire Drive image is a single .tbi file. During a restore you will see the individual partitions so you can choose single or multiple partitions to restore. If you are restoring multiple partitions to an empty HD, each partition will be restored to its previous starting LBA. If you are restoring an Entire Drive image to a larger HD you can choose Scale to Fit. Partitions will be expanded proportionally with the exception of small partitions.


Quote:
Automatic Scaling Restrictions – If this option is enabled, Image for Windows will restrict the scaling of partitions which are the smaller of 15GiB or 1/8 the drive size. Using this option is an easy way to avoid scaling system reserved, recovery, and utility partitions to larger sizes when upgrading to a larger drive.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 27th, 2014 at 6:16pm
Running TRIM on your SSD WinXP. Maybe weekly, (or less often) depending on how much you use the OS.

Partition Work
Bus.. BIOS (direct)
select SSD WinXP partition
Trim
Continue

After completion you might get a BIOS disk access warning. Click Reboot.

You don't need to do this on your SSD Win7 partition as Win7 does its own Trim.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 28th, 2014 at 2:02am
To create an Entire Drive image and write the image to a USB external HD... Using IFL

Backup
Full Backup
Linux
ATA ..... (sda)
select Entire Drive
Single File Set
File Direct
Linux
select your USB HD. It will be last in the list
select partition on USB
select folder on USB and give the image a name (or accept the default name)
leave the ticks in Omit Page File Data, Omit Hibernation Data and Log Results to File
Validate Byte-for-Byte
Compression Enhanced Speed - A
File Size Max
Start


To restore an Entire Drive image .. Using IFD (this is IFD, not IFL)

Restore, Next
Normal, Next
File (Direct), Next
BIOS, Next 
select your backup HD, Next
select partition, folder and finally the .tbi image, Next    (you can use mouse double clicks)
tick in Entire Drive, Next
BIOS, Next
Hard Drive 0, Next  (make sure it's the SSD in the next step)
Accept the Warning
tick these Options....
   Align to Target
   Validate Before Restore
   Validate Byte-for-Byte
   Write Changed Sectors Only (if restoring to a SSD)
   Log Results to File
First Track Sectors AUTO
Next
Start


Single partition restore from an Entire Drive image...   IFL

Boot into IFL
Restore
Normal
File (Direct)
Linux
choose the HD containing the image (probably sdb)
select the backup image
remove the tick from Entire Drive and put a tick in the Partition box (you will only have one tick now)(or maybe a greyed out tick in Entire Drive and a good tick in Partition)
Linux
choose the HD containing your OS (probably sda)
select the Partition you want to restore into
on the Warning screen make sure it's the correct HD. Yes to continue.
Select
*   Validate Before Restore
*   Validate Byte-for-Byte
*   Write Changed Sectors Only (if restoring to a SSD)
*   leave tick in Log Results to File
ignore First Track Sectors AUTO (greyed out)
ignore Resize partition
Start

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 28th, 2014 at 6:09pm
How to create a one click backup script in BIBM

In BIBM
Disk Imaging
Backup
Full Backup
Hard Drive 0
Select the partition to backup (or Entire Drive)
File (Direct)
BIOS
Hard Drive 1
select destination partition and folder (double mouse click or Enter)
accept the Name (it will be Drive/Partition/Date/Time)
leave the ticks in Omit Page File Data, Omit Hibernation Data and Log Results to File
Validate Byte-for-Byte
Compression Enhanced Speed - A
File Size Max
Show Command
put a tick in Save to File
OK
you now have to add two switches to make the script run without asking you any questions. These switches are /uy and /um. Add them after /b. So it looks like...
C:\IMAGE.EXE /b /uy /um /d............
OK
In the Name field call it backup.tbs (you can use any name you like but with the .tbs extension)
OK
click Exit on the IFD GUI

To run the script click Run (on the BIBM desktop)
select backup.tbs
OK
after the backup image has been created you will be returned to the BIBM desktop

Pretty simple. One click backups. Each backup will have a different filename so no overwriting occurs.

To view the script, click Text Editor
Open
select backup.tbs
OK
If needed, the script can be edited here in Text Editor. For example, you forgot to add /uy /um

You can initiate this process in Windows using a batch file, manually or as a Scheduled Task. Windows will restart into BIBM, the script will automatically run and when the backup has completed, your computer will boot into Windows. Or you could edit the script to have your computer shutdown after the image has been created. I'll leave details until later.

An example batch file is....

D:\BOOTNOW\BOOTNOW.EXE WinXP_SSD/run=backup.tbs

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/downloads-bootit-bare-metal.htm

See BootNow

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 28th, 2014 at 8:41pm
Creating an auto Backup (or Restore) IFL UFD

Making the IFL boot disk is slightly different from the previous instructions...

double click makedisk.exe, next
Custom Settings, next
dot in I accept the agreement, next
tick in Align Partitions on 2048 sectors
ignore Miscellaneous, next
ignore Additional ifl.ini Options  (or enter your TimeZone), next
Product Key (it's a short one compared to IFW), next
Normal Boot, next
Run List - Run Scripts listed in scriptslist.txt
BIBM Licensed Name, Product Key
Ignore the BIBM page if you don't have BIBM
Use a UFD
USB Layout... Partition - FAT/FAT32 partition (Int13h Extensions)
Geometry Calculation Method... Use Device
Finish

Creating the script...

Boot the UFD
OK on the No User Scripts message
mount the UFD partition (it should be the drive above the optical drive)
go through the IFL backup screens as far as the Backup Options screen, use the Options previously discussed and also tick Reboot (or Shutdown) when Completed.
press the Show Command button
Save to file (remember to add --uy --um after --b)
Save as backup.sh in mnt1/scripts  (not in scripts) You should see scriptslist.txt in the same folder.
Exit IFL GUI
Use MC to open /mnt1/scripts and edit scriptslist.txt (type in backup.sh). You should see backup.sh in the folder along with scriptslist.txt.
Unmount the UFD partition
Reboot

When you next boot the UFD the auto backup will happen. You can remove the UFD as soon as the backup commences, if you like.

You can create multiple .sh files in mnt1/scripts. scriptslist.txt can be edited in Windows so you can use the same UFD to perform different backup or restore tasks.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Apr 30th, 2014 at 12:35am
Installing Win7....

In case you haven't already done this. After booting the DVD, choose your Time and Currency format.

Install now
Accept license
Custom (advanced)
Select your partition. The Type should be System. It should be on Disk 0 and have the label you assigned in BIBM. It should be the size you created.
click Next (don't click Drive options (advanced))
you will see an Installing Windows screen

It is a fast overall install.

The install modifies the MBR so when you are ready to boot BIBM again, boot from the BIBM CD and select Reactivate BootIt Bare Metal. All your settings will still be present.


Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on May 2nd, 2014 at 11:34pm
Running Image for Linux Without a Boot Disk

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/howto/howto-ifl-bootfile.htm

This tutorial is old and the setup is a lot easier than it appears in the web page. There are a few edits needed in setupifl.bat and that's it. You are producing a bootable .bin file which works similarly to the Ghost 2003 virtual partition except that a spare MBR slot isn't needed. The basic .bin boots into IFL. You can customize the .bin by using TBOSDT. TBOSDT can copy scripts and other files into the .bin so you can run auto backups and auto restores. You can use the one .bin (edited of course) to do many tasks.

Caution. Run the bootfile .bin from HD0. Not from other HDs.

You will recall the Ghost 2003 problem of being stuck in the virtual partition. If it ever happens, there is a boot Option 5 (no longer 4) which removes the virtual partition.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on May 12th, 2014 at 9:11pm
Yet another way of using IFL

IFL on the HD

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/kb/article.php?id=545

Create your custom IFL flash drive. Boot it and create restore/backup scripts in mnt1/scripts.

Use BIBM to create a 100 MB FAT or FAT32 partition on any HD and create a Boot Item.

Follow "Boot Disk Mode:" in the web page to "copy" the UFD partition to the FAT partition.

In Windows use TBOSDT to copy a custom scriptslist.txt to the scripts folder in the FAT partition. I assume you will hide the FAT partition from Windows.

Use BootNow to boot the IFL FAT partition and run the auto backup/restore. Scheduled if you like.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on May 24th, 2014 at 7:10pm
@ NightOwl

I hope you haven't fallen off the perch.

Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by NightOwl on Dec 8th, 2014 at 1:57am
@ Brian


Brian wrote on May 24th, 2014 at 7:10pm:
I hope you haven't fallen off the perch.


In more ways than one--and landed on my head (figuratively)--badly--I really have to stop doing that!

Everything with this project has gone fine up to the functional point that I have accomplished.  I have the SSD set up, Win7 installed, and I'm using IFL to do backups.  But, the devil is in the details, and those will have to wait for a few days--just wanted to touch base, and let you know I'm still alive!




Title: Re: So, I'm in a bind--actual and emotional!
Post by Brian on Dec 9th, 2014 at 1:06am
@ NightOwl

Great to have you back.


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