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Message started by Christer on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 5:06am

Title: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 5:06am
Hello all!

I'm planning to upgrade from W7 to W10. In preparation, I'm planning to upgrade the RAM from 4 GB to either 8 GB or 16 GB. I don't play games and do no photoshopping or video editing, just Office work. The most RAM-intensive task I do is ... ::) ... Windows Update! This means that the system probably won't benefit from 16 GB over 8 GB but I have a doubts about that.

The motherboard supports 1333 MHz without OC and that's what I'm opting for.

1333 MHz modules are hard to find but the 1600 MHz modules listed below are SPD at 1333 MHz.

Comparing CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 and CMZ8GX3M2A1600C8

Can the C8 modules be set to run at 1333 MHz with the lower latency or is that possible at 1600 MHz only? If possible, would I notice a difference worth a 34% price increase?

Would it be better to go for CMZ16GX3M2A1600C9G (disregard the colour) at a 65% price premium over the 8 GB C9 modules?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 1:20pm
@ Christer

My son and I both have 16 GB of Corsair Vengeance DDR3 RAM. I don't game and my RAM usage maxes out at 4 GB. I'll check with my son who does game.

I don't know the answers to your technical questions.

When it comes to the upgrade from W7 to W10, don't bother about having all the Windows updates done. You can upgrade from a fresh W7 install (no updates) to W10. It makes no difference to the final W10.

Edit... my son says 8 GB has been his maximum usage.


Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 4:37pm
@ Brian

Neither do I have an answer to the technical questions but I went google on it and came to the conclusion that if it would be possible to run at 1333 MHz and CL8, it would be difficult to notice any difference compared to CL9 during normal usage. Maybe benchmarking would show a difference but probably negligible.

I have wondered what the fuss is about the requirement of a fully updated W7 prior to doing the upgrade to W10. I didn't understand why and you have confirmed my suspicion that it's not a prerequisite. Maybe IE11 is a prerequiste update if the installer only provides Edge?

My RAM usage has maxed out at 4GB and it was when running Windows Update (bloody disaster). Other than that, 2GB but that's on W7. I'm not in a tight spot financially so I can afford 16GB and stop worrying ...† :-/ ... until I start worrying about having wasted my money ...† ::) ... !

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 4:45pm
@ Brian

I'm currently dual booting WXP and W7. I hope that the upgrade will become a dual boot of WXP and W10. If I like W10 and decide to not revert to WXP/W7, the I'll get an SSD and do a fresh installation of W10, no more WXP. The SSD will probably provide a much higher performance boost than any RAM timings.

(I wonder if Ghost 2003, booted from a floppy, will create and restore images of W10 but that's another thread.)

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 7:10pm
@ Christer


Christer wrote on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 4:37pm:
I have wondered what the fuss is about the requirement of a fully updated W7 prior to doing the upgrade to W10.†


It is required if you update from Windows Update. But if you update from a Win10 UFD or DVD (in Windows) no Win7 updates are required.

Win10 will contain IE 11 and Edge.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 7:47pm
@ Christer


Christer wrote on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 4:45pm:
I wonder if Ghost 2003, booted from a floppy, will create and restore images of W10


Ghost 2003 was run from a DOS USB flash drive. The Win10 partition was 1MiB aligned. MBR/Legacy system.

Image created and restored to the same partition. Win10 loaded normally.

The same image was restored to a new, empty HD. All Free Space.
Win10† booted to a BSOD, Error code:0xc0000225
A BCD Edit was run from BIBM. Win10 loaded normally.

So, it's OK to use your 13 year old imaging app on Win10 in a MBR system.



Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 24th, 2016 at 2:27am
@ Brian


Quote:
It is required if you update from Windows Update. But if you update from a Win10 UFD or DVD (in Windows) no Win7 updates are required.


I guess that is to reduce the download during an online upgrade.


Quote:
The Win10 partition was 1MiB aligned. MBR/Legacy system.


Is that a deviation from the standard setup during a fresh installation of W10?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 24th, 2016 at 11:42am
@ Christer


Christer wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 2:27am:
Is that a deviation from the standard setup during a fresh installation of W10?      

When you install Win10 to Unallocated Free Space the partition will be 1MiB aligned as that is the partitioner default. It's been the default since Vista. Ghost 2003 doesn't understand 1MiB alignment (2048 sector alignment) and that's why restoring the image to Unallocated Free Space failed. Ghost restored the image and created a Cylinder aligned partition. The failure could have been prevented by "generalizing" the BCD prior to creating the image. If you restore the image to an established partition, either Cylinder or 1MiB aligned, no problem.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 24th, 2016 at 1:23pm
@ Brian


Quote:
It's been the default since Vista.


When installing Win 7, I had the harddisk prepartitioned from within XP (which was installed first) to get the partitions cylinder aligned and I run Ghost with the -fdsp switch. I have wondered if that (cylinder aligned contra 1MiB aligned) renders a performance hit?

Could the same approach be used while installing W10 from scratch? I mean, if I upgrade the current system from W7 to W10, that would be the case, sort of.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 24th, 2016 at 1:57pm
@ Christer


Christer wrote on Feb 24th, 2016 at 1:23pm:
Could the same approach be used while installing W10 from scratch? I mean, if I upgrade the current system from W7 to W10, that would be the case, sort of.†


Yes, your cylinder aligned partition will still be cylinder aligned when you upgrade Win7 to Win10. As you mentioned, if you create a cylinder aligned partition and clean install Win10 into that partition it will remain cylinder aligned.

I don't think you will have performance issues unless you have a SSD or an Advanced Format HD.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 24th, 2016 at 3:19pm
@ Brian


Quote:
I don't think you will have performance issues unless you have a SSD or an Advanced Format HD.


Sooner or later, I'll migrate the system to a SSD and will probably not involve XP in any way during the clean installation which means 1 MiB alignment.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 24th, 2016 at 3:52pm
Installing Win10 from a UFD to a SSD is fast. About 10 minutes.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 25th, 2016 at 2:51am
@ Brian

I have read a little about SSD performance but it's still a grey zone for me. As I understand it, formatting a SSD from within XP, to circumvent the limitations of Ghost 2003, is not a good idea.

Which SSD in the 250-500 GB range do you recommend?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 25th, 2016 at 4:28pm
@ Christer

No, you don't want WinXP creating Cylinder aligned partitions on a SSD. Performance reasons.

As far as SSD recommendations, it depends who you ask. I have Intel 520 and 530 series SSDs. (the current series is 535) They are reliable and fast but not inexpensive. 5 year warranty. I also have 2 el cheapo SanDisk SSDs which are fine too.

Regarding size. It depends how much data you intend to put on the SSD. I use small OS partitions and keep my data files on an internal HD. In this computer my Win10 partition is 40 GB with 15 GB of free space. The SSD is 240 GB and contains about 10 bootable partitions. I certainly don't need a larger SSD.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by NightOwl on Feb 26th, 2016 at 12:00am
@ Christer


Christer wrote on Feb 23rd, 2016 at 5:06am:
I'm planning to upgrade from W7 to W10. In preparation, I'm planning to upgrade the RAM from 4 GB to either 8 GB or 16 GB. I don't play games and do no photoshopping or video editing, just Office work. The most RAM-intensive task I do is ... Roll Eyes ... Windows Update! This means that the system probably won't benefit from 16 GB over 8 GB but I have a doubts about that.

There's another variable that you may have to take into account--at least with Win7 and older WinXP--in order to have the OS actually *see*, and use more than 3.49 GB of RAM, you have to be using a 64 bit installed version of the OS.

At the time I purchased my most recent motherboard (it's getting to be *old* now--4-5 years ago!), I specifically decided not to invest in more than 4 GB of RAM because I knew that Win7 would not see more than that 3.49 GB if I installed the 32 bit version of Win7--and at least at that time, using 64 bit Win7 was still not getting the best reviews--many poor compatibility issues with too many software titles.

I don't know if that's an issue with Win10?† I don't know if there is both a 32 bit and a 64 bit version--or if Win10 is only 64 bit now?

And, you probably will not have to worry about Windows Update *churning* your system--with Win10, if I understand correctly, you don't get any choice in the matter as to what update(s) you are going to get--you're force feed, and that's it!

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 3:31am
@ NightOwl

Yes, Win10 has 32 and 64 bit versions.

Prior to Win10 I had Windows Update set to "Never Download". I used to manually install the updates a few weeks after they were released, thinking they should be stable by now. With Win10, you can't do this. The updates are automatically installed every week or two. No problems so far.

When installing Win10 you have the option of doing a MBR/Legacy mode install or a UEFI mode install. I have both (in different computers) but for our purposes a MBR/Legacy mode install is more practical.

If anyone would like to play with Win10, here are some ISOs from Microsoft.

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench


Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 6:07am
@ Brian


Quote:
Regarding size. It depends how much data you intend to put on the SSD. I use small OS partitions and keep my data files on an internal HD. In this computer my Win10 partition is 40 GB with 15 GB of free space. The SSD is 240 GB and contains about 10 bootable partitions. I certainly don't need a larger SSD.


Then I think that I'll settle for 240 GB and pay more for quality/performance.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 6:12am
@ NightOwl

When I built the system, I chose 4 GB for the reason that WinXP is 32-bit. When I added Win7 to create a dual boot installation, I chose 64-bit but never upgraded RAM. (The reason why I didn't go straight to Win7 was compatibility issues with programs that I run without problems on WinXP.)

There are 32-bit and 64-bit versions of each Win10 edition.

Regarding Windows Update, what you say is true for the Home edition but as I understand it, the Professional edition gives you more control over WU.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 6:17am
@ Brian


Quote:
With Win10, you can't do this. The updates are automatically installed every week or two. No problems so far.


Are you sure about that? From what I've read, that's true for the Home edition but the Professional edition gives the user more control.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 10:51am
@ Christer

See the differences between upgrades and updates....

http://www.howtogeek.com/223083/what-does-%E2%80%9Cdefer-upgrades%E2%80%9D-in-windows-10-mean/

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3005193/microsoft-windows/windows-10-refresh-its-an-upgrade-not-an-update.html

Ver 1511, in November, was an upgrade. I installed it manually from an ISO on day one. I want upgrades. After all, if anything goes wrong we can just restore an image. That takes me less than two minutes.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 11:37am
@ Brian


Quote:
I also have 2 el cheapo SanDisk SSDs which are fine too.


It seems like prices vary between countries. In Sweden, SanDisks aren't "el cheapo" but I don't know which models you are referring to.

I have narrowed it down to four with 5 years warranty and a single one with 10 years warranty. Website in Swedish > prices in Swedish currency but divide by 8,5 and you'll get it in USD:

Intel Solid-State Drive 535 Series at ~157 USD
Kingston SSDNow KC400 at ~143 USD
Samsung 850 EVO at ~124 USD
SanDisk Ultra II at ~144 USD
and finally the one with 10 years warranty:
Samsung 850 PRO at ~182 USD

I'm leaning towards the Samsung 850 EVO.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 11:47am
@ Brian


Quote:
See the differences between upgrades and updates....


... >:( ... and I who always have downloaded the updates and installed off-line ... >:( ...

The updates do show up in the Security Bulletins and can be downloaded. If I can't prevent automatic updates, why make them downloadable?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 11:57am
@ Christer

I bought a "SanDisk Solid State Drive" 120 GB for $50 US

I bought a "SanDisk SSD Plus Solid State Drive" 240 GB for $70 US


I must say I'm used to the Windows Updates being done automatically. I wouldn't have said that a year ago. One less manual job.


Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 12:26pm
@ Brian

SanDisk PLUS at 124 USD in Sweden ... :-X ... !

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 1:27pm
@ Christer

http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/i.html?_odkw=ssd+sandisk&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xssd+sandisk+plus+240+gb.TRS0&_nkw=ssd+sandisk+plus+240+gb&_sacat=0

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 1:44pm
The 240 GB SanDisk Plus SSD doesn't support DRAT. The 120 GB SSD does. TeraByte Unlimited has a "Write Changed Sectors Only" option when restoring (needs DRAT)...


Quote:
Use this option when restoring to write only the changed sectors to the target drive (target will be read to compare). Useful in cases where a large portion of the data is the same and itís desirable to reduce wear on the target drive (e.g. restoring image to SSD drive).


So instead of writing 25 GB of data to the SSD during a restore, I might only write 200 MB.

My Intel SSDs support DRAT.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_%28computing%29


Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 26th, 2016 at 2:03pm
@ Brian

Seems like I have a bit of reading to do ... :o ... !

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 26th, 2016 at 2:40pm
@ Christer

Putting it in perspective, a modern SSD will probably never wear out from writing too much data. Maybe if you do 50 restores daily it could wear out.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Feb 27th, 2016 at 2:47am
@ Christer

I suggest confirming the SSD you intend to buy supports DRAT. I know you won't be using the TeraByte app but SSDs which support DRAT are supposed to be more "reliable".

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 27th, 2016 at 12:36pm
@ Brian

Thanks for the tip, I'll check for DRAT support!

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Feb 29th, 2016 at 10:51am
@ Brian


Quote:
I suggest confirming the SSD you intend to buy supports DRAT.


I have not found information on the Intel SSDs or any other about DRAT support specifically, Trim support in general only. Does Trim support always include DRAT support?

I quote from the article on Wikipedia:


Quote:
Non-deterministic Trim: each read command to the Logical block address (LBA) after a Trim may return different data.

Deterministic Trim (DRAT): all read commands to the LBA after a Trim shall return the same data, or become determinate.

Deterministic Read Zero after Trim (RZAT): all read commands to the LBA after a Trim shall return zero.



Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Brian on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 1:22am
@ Christer

Standby. I'm still trying to get meaningful information.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing
Post by Christer on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 10:24am
@ Brian

No panic ... 8-) ... ! I have promised two friends to help them upgrading. Both have tried the online route and failed.

I have successfully helped the first one by doing it off line from a USB stick. I disconnected everything but the keyboard and mouse. It went well and also reconnecting the hardware, one by one. Only the scanner needed manual download of drivers. He's happy but wants to upgrade to a SSD.

The next friend is on the waitinglist. When I have upgraded his computer too ... ;) ... then I'll be prepared to do my own.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 12:33pm
@ Christer

When I upgraded to Win10 last year, all upgrade methods failed except upgrading from a UFD. It's the only method I now use.

As a test yesterday I upgraded a freshly installed Win7 (no updates) to Win10 ver 1511 (using a USB flash drive)

From running setup.exe on the UFD to the Win10 desktop took 15:30

Manually running Windows Update (drivers and Security updates) took another 12:00 minutes.

Total time was 27:30

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 1:22pm
@ Brian

It took a bit longer on my friends system which was/is installed on a HDD. An approximate hour plus installing the disconnected hardware.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 3rd, 2016 at 3:52pm
@ Christer

I run "Disk Clean-up/Clean-up system files" and select everything after I've upgraded to Win10. In my computers this removes 10 to 15 GB of old OS files from the C: drive. You can't roll back to the previous OS after doing this but you should have an image of the old OS if you do decide to roll back.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:33am
@ Brian

From reply #19:


Quote:
Ver 1511, in November, was an upgrade. I installed it manually from an ISO on day one. I want upgrades. After all, if anything goes wrong we can just restore an image. That takes me less than two minutes.


I think that I begin to understand Windows Update for Windows 10. If you have a look at Microsoft Security Bulletin Summary for February 2016 and scroll down to Windows Operating Systems and Components > Windows 10 it is obvious that whichever bulletin you choose, the file that gets downloaded is the same and covers or ... ::) ... destroys it all.

I think that I'll change my strategy of "imaging the system after installing the updates on a monthly basis".

Instead, after installing or converting to Windows 10, off-line from a USB-stick to the latest build/version, I will create an image. Then I'll let Windows 10 have its way until the next upgrade to a new build/version. At that time, I'll restore the previous image, install the new updgrade and create a fresh image of the system. Depending on space on my HDD, I'll keep at least two generations of images to roll back to.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 7th, 2016 at 3:34pm
@ Christer

To summarize the three types of TRIM. There is no way to determine the type of TRIM until you buy the SSD or ask a mate. Companies don't provide this information and my latest advice is the type of TRIM doesn't matter. I became interested in DRAT because TeraByte Unlimited uses it for their "Write Changed Sectors Only" restores but this seems to be a once off usage.

I've embraced the Win10 update process (no choice anyway). I check occasionally to see what has happened. Windows Defender updates happen daily and Windows Updates happen every two weeks or so. No issues so far.


Christer wrote on Mar 7th, 2016 at 5:33am:
off-line from a USB-stick to the latest build/version


Did you mean on-line? While Windows is running?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Mar 7th, 2016 at 4:09pm
@ Brian


Quote:
Did you mean on-line? While Windows is running?


Nope, off-line. The reason for downloading updates to the computer and installing them off-line on WinXP and Win7 is to make sure that my system is free from virus and other malware when being reimaged. It takes some time to restore the image from the previous month prior to installing the new batch of updates but that's the way I do it. Today, when I restore an image, the system has been on-line only for the short duration of activating Windows and that was in 2011.

About upgrading the system, when I helped my friend, I booted from the USB-stick but when the question came, if I wanted to upgrade or do a clean installation, when I chose "upgrade" I was prompted to reboot the computer and start the process from within Windows. It seems like booting from the USB-stick is for clean installations only.

I did it off-line with all peripheral hardware disconnected. When the upgrade had completed, I reconnected the hardware one by one. Only the scanner needed drivers to be downloaded from the internet.

My friend had failed on two attempts to do the upgrade on-line via Windows Update. He had everything connected and I told him that was as wise as keeping the pictures on the walls while changing the wall paper. My method worked and next weekend, I'll do the deed for another friend.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 7th, 2016 at 4:13pm
@ Christer

I misunderstood what you were saying. When I upgraded to Win10 I did it from a running OS.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Mar 7th, 2016 at 4:16pm
@ Brian

I forgot the issue of TRIM. I think that I'll get a Samsung 850 EVO and it supports TRIM. Right now I can get the 250 GB version for 100 USD but I don't want to buy it until I need it. Why burn warranty storing it in a drawer?

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 7th, 2016 at 4:42pm
@ Christer

When I said I upgraded online I meant I started the upgrade online. Files were copied from the UFD to the HD and then the computer restarted and did the upgrade offline.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Christer on Mar 8th, 2016 at 3:24am
@ Brian


Quote:
When I said I upgraded online I meant I started the upgrade online. Files were copied from the UFD to the HD and then the computer restarted and did the upgrade offline.


Now, You've lost me. Why did You start the upgrade on-line from a UFD, created to do it off-line?

As I wrote in reply #38:


Quote:
About upgrading the system, when I helped my friend, I booted from the USB-stick but when the question came, if I wanted to upgrade or do a clean installation, when I chose "upgrade" I was prompted to reboot the computer and start the process from within Windows. It seems like booting from the USB-stick is for clean installations only.


When I did it, the computer was off-line all the time. While reconnecting the peripheral hardware, I went on-line to download drivers for the scanner and also to verify that Windows 10 had been activated. I guess that Windows 10 updated itself quite soon after I had left it alone.

Title: Re: RAM size, speed and timing (plus other things that came up)
Post by Brian on Mar 8th, 2016 at 3:55am
@ Christer

I think we did the same thing. You booted from the UFD and were instructed to "start the process from within Windows". Nothing happened to your system until you ran setup.exe from Windows. You mentioned " It seems like booting from the USB-stick is for clean installations only." I agree.

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