With previous Windows versions transferring the OS to different hardware could be challenging. I think WinXP was the most difficult as different storage controllers needed different drivers. Win10 is a dream, at least on the few computers I've tested. Just image computer A and restore the image to computer B. Nothing else is needed.

I've done this several times but today the following tests were performed. Computer A is my main computer with Win10 installed in MBR mode. Computer B is my test computer with Win10 installed in UEFI mode. Win10 on computer A was imaged with IFW.

The image from Computer A was restored to Computer B. The disk was converted to GPT. Win10 loaded normally and was automatically Activated as this computer had previously used an Activated Win10 OS.

The UEFI Win10 was restored to Computer B. The disk was converted to MBR. Win10 on computer B was imaged with IFL. (outside Windows as the BIOS wasn't changed to MBR)

The image from Computer B was restored to Computer A. Win10 loaded normally and was automatically Activated as this computer had previously used an Activated Win10 OS.

@ Brian

Interesting, thanks for sharing!

I assume that the images were of the partition, not the system. If I'm correct, when upgrading several systems to Win 10, it is sufficient to make a single clean installation and restore the image of this clean installation to any BOAC (box of assembled components), as long the receiving system has been activated on Win 10, right?

Is it possible to perform a clean install of Win10 via the free upgrade offering for Win7 and Win8.1 users?  I'm currently running Win8.1 and thought the upgrade route was the only option. 

Tator wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 8:01pm:

Is it possible to perform a clean install of Win10 via the free upgrade offering for Win7 and Win8.1 users?

Yes. You can perform that with these two steps:

(1a) first install the Win10 upgrade, which will fingerprint your system and activate Win10 with MS's servers.

(1b) Then you can wipe the HDD and do a fully clean install from scratch, which will still be recognized as activated because of the prior fingerprinting.

Another way is this:

(2a) first install the Win10 upgrade, which will fingerprint your system and activate Win10 with MS's servers. During the installation process you'll be prompted whether you want to preserve your settings and data. Choose "NO".

(2b) after installation you'll be left with a clean install and the old 7/8.x system in a "windows.old" folder. Delete that (boot 10 and do a "disk cleanup") and you've got essentially the same thing as a clean install.

The same installation media can be used for upgrading or a clean install. I upgrade by booting into the existing 7/8.x and then launching setup.exe from the installation media, but I've read you can also upgrade by booting from the installation media and selecting "Upgrade" from the first menu. So that's a third way of doing it.

Building the upgrade media consists of downloading an iso and then burning it to DVD or creating a bootable flash drive (via a special utility). I prefer the former, though I think Brian prefers the latter.

Christer wrote on Jul 17^th, 2016 at 3:23am:

I assume that the images were of the partition, not the system.

That would be my interpretation of what Brian is doing. (I believe he's away this week, but he'll probably fill in the details when he gets back.)

A partition, whether GPT or MBR, is just a group of disk sectors, and Windows doesn't really care which partitioning scheme it runs on. Once Windows boots, all partitions look the same to Windows--just blocks of a certain number of sectors starting at a particular absolute sector number. That's how partitions are defined in the [MountedDevices] registry key. They're not defined in the registry as GPT, MBR, primary or extended.

The difference between GPT and MBR isn't the partitions themselves, it's the layout scheme describing how to find them. Windows is only concerned with GPT/MBR to the extent, during the boot process, of determining the appropriate scheme to follow to locate where those blocks of sectors are that make up the partitions.

Thus, there's really no substantive difference between an image of a GPT partition vs. a MBR partition. They're both just images of a groups of sectors.

On several occasions I have converted Win8.x/10 systems from GPT to MBR by imaging the GPT OS partition, erasing the hard disk to remove the GPT layout, recreating MBR partitions, then restoring the OS image to one of the new partitions. (As you may guess, I prefer MBR partition layouts over GPT.) Partitions are partitions, so it works fine--and it doesn't surprise me at all that Brian has gone back and forth between GPT and MBR partitioning schemes without a problem.

Caveat: you may have to edit the BCD so that Windows knows were you moved itself to, depending on how the original BCD was configured and whether or not auxiliary partitions are being used (SRP, EFI, MSR, etc.) and where they are. But again, that issue is the same whether you're using GPT or MBR.

I think the intriguing part of Brian's post was Win10's flexibility in dealing with dissimilar hardware, not the GPT vs MBR issue.

Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 19^th, 2016 at 10:12pm:

I think the intriguing part of Brian's post was Win10's flexibility in dealing with dissimilar hardware, not the GPT vs MBR issue.

Yes, I understand. I have always installed Windows clean and off-line (neither Firewall nor Anti Virus installed), having downloaded the needed drivers in advance. I think that approach will become "history" since the Windows 10 installer is good at finding what's needed. The built-in Firewall and Defender is good enough protection during the installation.

I've read some who upgrade to Win10 have problems reverting to Win7 or Win8.1 when problems are encountered with Win10.  Would simply restoring a backup image of my Win8.1 avoid such problems should Win10 problems arise, or is there another good method to return to the previous OS if needed?

Tator wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:19am:

I've read some who upgrade to Win10 have problems reverting to Win7 or Win8.1 when problems are encountered with Win10.  Would simply restoring a backup image of my Win8.1 avoid such problems?

Yes, and IMO that's the best strategy. Trying to surgically undo what the Win10 upgrade did will never be as foolproof as nuking the whole thing and restoring a backup image of your prior system.

The purpose of the windows.old folder is ostensibly so you can undo the upgrade--and Win10 will warn you that deleting it will prevent Windows from rolling itself back to your old OS. But if you've got a good backup image that's a more reliable strategy anyway, so I never hesitate to get rid of windows.old.

In fact, imaging is what Brian and I (among many others) recommend doing, even if you're not yet sold on Win10. You've got about a week left for the free ugrade offer, so if your system is Win10 capable, perform the upgrade to get your system fingerprinted. Then make an image of the Win10 system (if you want--that step is optional because once fingerprinted you could do a clean install in the future if you prefer) and restore your previous system from a backup image. That way, you won't have to commit to Win10 now but will have it "in the bank", so to speak.

BTW, in case this wasn't clear from earlier discussions, upgrading an existing MBR system will still leave you with a MBR partition layout. Thus, it's relatively trivial to revert to your old system via a backup image.

If upgrading a MBR system you'll still end up with a MBR layout, while upgrading a GPT system (e.g., an OEM Win 8.x system) will end up GPT. If clean installing on a blank hard disk, the Win10 installer will create a GPT layout. If you start with a blank disk and create a MBR layout first, Win10 can be clean installed as a MBR system.

(FWIW, I prefer MBR systems because then I can use all my old multibooting tricks.)

My Win8.1 is OEM, and I have it setup to dual boot WinXP.  Will I still be able to dual boot after upgrade, or do I need to somehow convert current Win8.1 from GPT to MBR layout?  Also will reverting to Win8.1 by restoring its image still work if my system is currently GPT?

I don't use GPT, so I really don't know. I'll guess you must be multibooting via BCD? That's just too messy and entangling for me. Brian is more knowledgable with GPT, so he may be able to tell you.

But until he gets back, my guess would be that, at most, you'd need to restore your Win8 partition (that you overwrote with Win10) and perhaps your startup partitions (EFI, MSR and MS Recovery) since Win10 may have tampered with them. If you're lucky, you might get away with just restoring the Win8 partition. I can't imagine you'd need to restore your XP or data partitions.

I think I may have an MBR system after all because I remember running commands like "Fix MBR" from the WinXP recovery console.  Is there a way to determine which system type I have?  Have you any idea when Brain will be back?

I can tell you what was done if that might help determine system type.  I'm sure I don't use BCD since Windows Setup is the only thing I've used to setup systems.  I was multi-booting Win98/Win2k/WinXP until about 3 years ago when motherboard was upgraded that no longer supports Windows older than WinXP.  About 2 years ago I did a clean install of Win8.1 and setup the dual boot wonXP/Win8.1.  At that time BIOS SATA setting had to be set to IDE mode in order for WinXP to boot.  However, I noticed recently that setting was changed to AHCI mode, and WinXP still boots.  I don't know if a Windows update could have made the change from IDE to AHCI, but I did not change it myself.  This may be more detail than needed, but I hope it's useful info.

If you installed 8.1 on a hard disk that already had XP in another partition, you almost certainly have a MBR system.

You can tell for sure with the Disk Management applet. In 8.1 right-click "This PC" and select "Manage" from the pop-up context menu. (Alternatively, you can type "diskmgmt.msc" in the Search box to launch the applet directly.)

The lower part of the Disk Management window will display a schematic bar graph of your disk's partitions. At the far left of that bar graph, right-click the label (where it says "Disk x") and select "Properties" from the pop-up menu. In the Properties window, select the "Volumes" tab. Under that tab you'll find "Partition style" listed.


p.s.: I think Brian is just off fishing for the week.

Quote:

If you installed 8.1 on a hard disk that already had XP in another partition, you almost certainly have a MBR system.

If Win8.1 is anything like Win7 in this respect:

I run a dual boot of WinXP and Win7. WinXP went on first and the HDD was partitioned in three, two primary partitions (XP and 7) and an extended with a logical (data). When Win7 was installed, it created the dual boot.

With no free space on the HDD, a system reserved partition was not created. All those files ended up on the WinXP partition.

After having upgraded Win7 to Win10 and kept the dual boot, I created new images of both system partitions. I can't restore the original WinXP partition and the new Win10 partition. The system doesn't boot Win 10. They have to be synchronised.

My recommendation is to create two sets of images, one before and one after the upgrade to Win10.

Dan Goodell, thanks for that info.  It odes show MBR for Partition style.

Christer, I already have the before images and plan to create images after upgrade.  Then I can restore both before images if I decide to go back to Win8.1.  This necessary I think because dual boot Win8.1 made changes to the WinXP partition with files needed to boot Win8.1, and Win10 will make changes to WinXP partition with files needed to boot Win10.  This makes it absolutely necessary to have the WinXP image that corresponds to the later Windows version being run.  I learned from http://www.laptopmag.com/articles/how-to-upgrade-windows-10 the upgrade can be done using USB or DVD media and is recommended when there's more than 1 upgrade to be done.

I'm hoping Win10 will work well since it'll have support longer than Win8.1.  This is especially important to me since I run QuickBooks acciounting that stopped WinXP support with its 2015 version, and I know it's only a matter of time until later Windows version support is stopped as well.  I've read in other forums discussion and debate about Microsoft charging a monthly fee for Win10 use.  Some say that's for Enterprise version only while others ponder whether it may include all Win10 version in the future.  Does anybody here know anything about this?   

According to the DonoftheDead reply at https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r30884335-WIN10-Win-10-Free-Upgrade-Ending-July-29-2016 going back to Win7/8.1 from a Win10 upgrade after 7/29 would require purchase of a new license.  Does anybody know if that is true and if it applies even if Win7/8.1 images are restored instead of using the Windows reversion option?  In that same thread it is stated there is no control over Windows updates in Win10?  Is this true?   

Tator wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 5:35pm:

I've read in other forums discussion and debate about Microsoft charging a monthly fee for Win10 use.  Some say that's for Enterprise version only while others ponder whether it may include all Win10 version in the future.

Nobody knows for sure. Microsoft haven't said, and I suspect they aren't even sure themselves what direction they will take.

It seems like they'll have to monetize their R&D somehow. The three most obvious business models would be to either (a) sell it, (b) make it a subscription service, or (c) make it ad supported.

Given Microsoft's headlong push away from (a), they probably won't go back to that.

Office as a subscription service (Office 365 vs Office 2016) is already in the marketplace, and feels to me like a beta test to get the market used to that distribution model. My bet is that's the most likely future for Windows.

Ad-supported may be a stick to make subscriptions more palatable--say, allow users to use Windows for free if they accept ads, or buy a subscription to eliminate the ads. That strategy seems to be working for Amazon's Kindle*, and Microsoft is reportedly already experimenting with ads in Win10's browser. So I see ad-supported as a possible second choice to get consumers to warm to the subscription model. Plus, Microsoft wouldn't be painting themselves into a corner by current claims that Windows will always be "free".




Quote:

going back to Win7/8.1 from a Win10 upgrade after 7/29 would require purchase of a new license.  Does anybody know if that is true and if it applies even if Win7/8.1 images are restored instead of using the Windows reversion option?

That is not true for OEM 7/8.x licenses. All the upgrades I have done are from OEM licenses, and I have had no trouble with any of them reverting to an image of the prior OS. The prior OS still shows it's activated.

I have not done any upgrades from a retail license, so can't speak from experience with regard to that. Maybe Brian has experience with that.

Note that the "Windows reversion option", as you call it, should apply to OEM or retail, regardless. It is merely a 30-day window during which you can uninstall the upgrade. (That's the purpose of keeping the windows.old folder that is created during the upgrade process.)

After 30 days Windows won't uninstall the upgrade, regardless of whether you started with a OEM license or retail. However, that's a different process from restoring a backup image, which you can always do without a time limit.




Quote:

it is stated there is no control over Windows updates in Win10?  Is this true?

True for the Home edition. You'll get the updates Microsoft pushes out, when they push them out, like it or not.

In the Pro edition you can defer updates for a month or two, but you still can't decline them. You'll get them, but you have a little control over when they get installed.



* Edit: not that the Kindle is free, but I'm talking about the model of a low price with ads vs. higher price to eliminate ads.

Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 2:59pm:

True for the Home edition. You'll get the updates Microsoft pushes out, when they push them out, like it or not.

... and that's a pain in the rear end. I bought a new laptop a few months ago. It has worked well until recently when the touchpad stopped working. It works on the login screen but once logged in, it quits.

Had this occurred on Win 7, I hade rolled back using an image and installed the updates one by one to isolate the culprit. No such option on Win 10 Home or Win 10 whichever version, I think. It seems to be "one update fits all" and it contains all corrections of the month.

I normally use a USB-mouse but with some luck, the touchpad driver will get fixed.

Another test today. The source computer was a 12" Asus tablet with Win10 Home, 32-bit, installed in UEFI mode with an ESP, Win10 partition and Recovery partition but without a MSR (these tablets are all like that). The multi-partition image was restored to a desktop computer in UEFI mode. The restored Win10 wouldn't boot. Just the BIOS appeared. BCDEdit looked fine as did the partitions. I tried the TeraByte Unlimited TBIDTool with the uninstalling of drivers option. Same result. Failed.

The target disk was converted from GPT to MBR and Win10 booted in MBR mode. Success.

The target disk was converted from MBR to GPT but Win10 failed to boot in UEFI mode.

Overall I'd call this a success as Win10 was able to boot on the target computer.

I'll answer the other questions later today.

My earlier restores were single partition restores. Today was the first multi-partition restore.

I've upgraded two computers with retail Win8 licenses and it was no different from upgrading an OEM system.

I plan to try restoring a Win10 image from my son's UEFI desktop computer to my desktop test computer to see if I can get it to load Win10 while in UEFI mode.

The source Win10 OS was 64-bit with the four standard partitions. An entire drive image was restored to an empty SSD in the target computer. The restored OS booted, then "Getting devices ready" was seen for a few minutes, then Win10 loaded fully. On checking it was Activated.

Interesting!!!

Christer wrote on Jul 25^th, 2016 at 3:29am:

I normally use a USB-mouse but with some luck, the touchpad driver will get fixed.

Well, the touchpad had been deactivated. After reactivating, it works again. I didn't deactivate it and the only other "entity" messing with my laptop is ... >:( ... Windows Bloody Update!

EDITED: Immediately after reactivating the touchpad, I posted this message. Immediately after that, I went to check the update history. To my suprise ... ::) ... there was a new update for "Elan - Other hardware - ELAN Input Device". I rest my case ... :-X ... !

A later post in that thread in the link given in reply #14 corrects the post that says no going back after 7/29, and the correction says you have 30 days to go back  Another thing I've learned is there is little to no control of Windows updates in Win10.  There's a many steps process in a later post at above link to disable automatic updates as well as a simpler way to disable automatic updates for Professional version only on how to disable automaic updates or configure how updates are received and installed plus a way to trick Windows to disable automatic updates for networks at http://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-automatically-downloading-updates/ .  In any case there is no way to review and select updates to install, unfortunately.  Either all updates must be installed or none of them.  This is an idiotic blunder for Microsoft imo.  For example I get update notification for Office 2010 update, and Office 2010 is not on my system.  I also read something about downloading and using Portable Update that does allow selecting updates to install.  Does anybody here know anything about using that program?

I've upgrade 2 desktops thus far with no problems yet.  There's 1 Dell laptop I'd like to upgrade, and I read something about laptops having hidden partitions.  Is there anything special I need do to create backup of all partitions of current laptop before doing the upgrade?

@ Tator


Tator wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 10:43am:

There's 1 Dell laptop I'd like to upgrade, and I read something about laptops having hidden partitions.Is there anything special I need do to create backup of all partitions of current laptop before doing the upgrade?

Can you post a screenshot of Disk Management? That will help us decide what to do.

Tator wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 10:43am:

For example I get update notification for Office 2010 update, and Office 2010 is not on my system.

Do you by chance have the "file validation tool" installed on Office 2007? If so, some updates that are offered are for Office 2010. Just like the "compatibility pack" for Office 2003/XP will trigger updates for Office 2007.

I don't know how to post a screen shot.  I'm glad to do it if somebody can tell me how.  I can tell you Disk Management shows 3 partitions which are 102MB Healthy (OEM), 14.65GB Recovery and 581.42GB OS(C:).  The 1 that's 102MB has diagonal lines across it going from bottom left to top right.   

I have Office 2003 with the compatibility pack which does show Office 2007 updates, but I wouldn't think that would casue it to show Office 2010 updates.  Do you think the compatibility could have installed Office 2007 Validation Tool?

Brian wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 1:14am:

I've upgraded two computers with retail Win8 licenses and it was no different from upgrading an OEM system.

Maybe it was me misreading, but I interpreted the source Tator was referencing in reply #14 to be with regard to whether the Win10 upgrade deactivated the Win 7/8.1 registration key. IME a Win10 upgrade does not invalidate an OEM 7/8.1 key, but I wondered about retail keys.

As I read it, the question wasn't whether you could upgrade a retail Win8 key, it was whether you could restore an image of a retail Win8 after the upgrade and whether it would still be validly activated.

Upon rereading I was probably misinterpreting the question, but it would still be interesting to hear if you've tested restoring from an image of the old OS in the retail systems you upgraded.

Christer wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 5:29am:

Immediately after reactivating the touchpad, I posted this message. Immediately after that, I went to check the update history. To my suprise ...... there was a new update for "Elan - Other hardware - ELAN Input Device". I rest my case ...... !

Yes, that's one of my biggest concerns with forced hardware updates. In my years of experience I've seen way too many botched systems caused by Microsoft updating an OEM manufacturer's customized drivers.

Supposedly, driver updates can be disabled--see here. But I went to check my Win10 installation to see how mine was set, and I didn't have that option.



BTW, my Win10 is a multiboot partition, but I haven't booted it in a few weeks. For the above check I thought I'd quickly pop over to the Win10 side to check the settings and then pop right back here to my main OS (Win7).

"Quickly" wasn't an option--Win10's Windows Update locked up my computer for over 10 minutes and wouldn't let me shut down. It's irritating when you can't say, "I'm in a hurry, so now is not a good time."



BTW, if Win10's telemetry tracking gives you the willies, note that it's about to get worse. In the new update due to be released in the next few weeks, Microsoft is removing the option to disable Cortana, which listens for voice commands. So if you're worried about Win10 spying on you, now it's going to be more difficult to stop it from listening in on you, as well.

Tator wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 1:47pm:

Disk Management shows 3 partitions which are 102MB Healthy (OEM), 14.65GB Recovery and 581.42GB OS(C:).

The first partition is the hidden DellUtility partition. It's pretty much useless. It contains the Dell Diagnostics utility, but you can do the same things with the Dell Diagnostics utility downloadable from the Dell website. You can image it if you want, but it doesn't always work properly if you should ever need to restore the partition from your image.

The second and third are the only partitions you really need to image. Neither is hidden. However, note that if you should ever need to restore those two you'd probably also need to repair your BCD or Windows won't boot. Restoring just two means their positions will be different from where they were originally. Repairing the BCD is not hard (I use the BCD editor in Terabyte's BootIt-BM).

My suggestion is to image all three partitions. If you have to restore, then restore all three. The first one may or may not work after a restore, but that's no big deal because you'll probably never use it anyway. But by restoring all three, that will force the position of the latter two to fall into their original positions, which should make it more likely you wouldn't need a BCD repair.

@ Dan Goodell


Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 2:49pm:

but it would still be interesting to hear if you've tested restoring from an image of the old OS in the retail systems you upgraded.

That's what I have in this computer. Multi-booting.

Win10 upgraded from Win8.1
Win8.1 image restored after the above upgrade
etc

All Win OS are Activated.

Disk Management for my Desktop shows only the partitions Windows created when I installed Windows on a new drive, and that's what Discwizard sees when I create/restore images.  Will Discwizard see all 3 partitions on the laptop?  Note I run Discwizard from a BartPE CD if that makes any difference.

Brian wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 4:14pm:

All Win OS are Activated.

Ah, good. So a Win10 upgrade does not invalidate the 7/8.1 registration key, regardless of whether it's OEM or retail.

Tator wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Will Discwizard see all 3 partitions on the laptop?

I couldn't say for sure. I discarded Discwizard almost a decade ago because it did a notoriously poor job of handling hidden partitions. (Unfortunately, it did the worst thing any utility could do. Rather than saying, "I don't know what that is, so will steer clear," it effectively said, "I think I can guess what that is, so I'll handle it how I think might work". In the process, it mangled the hidden partitions irrepairably.)

There are so many good alternatives that I haven't had any reason to evaluate the current Discwizard.

Now I recall the BartPE CD I run Discwizard from is version 11 that's the last version that has the BartPE plugin, and that CD won't boot unless SATA in BIOS is set to IDE mode.  Thus the laptop won't boot that CD, and I decided to use EaseUS Todo Backup which I've tested successfully before.  It created image of 3 laptop partitions and successfully checked them.  EaseUS created and checked the image created from 65GB of data on the laptop in about 2 hours while it took Discwizard about 4 hours to create and check 26GB of data on the Desktop.

I've also tested Discwizard version 13 that's supposed to work for Windows 7 and later, but it failed badly in the restore process.  It does the restore in 2 steps by first deleting the existing partition and then restoring the image to that location.  The first step would complete every time, but it would often fail to restore the image.  Naturally this results in a useless partition with no data.

Yesterday I upgraded the second Desktop from Win8.1 that's connected via wireless adapter to the internet, and it connects fine   Today I upgraded a third and final Desktop from Win8.1 that's connected via wireless adapter to the internet, but it won't connect.  I tried a number of things including disable and then enable the connection, deleting the connection and creating it anew, identify and repair the connection and run the Trouble Shooter.  Device Manager shows the device is working properly and shows it has correct updated driver.  The connection was working perfectly with this adapter in Win8.1 before the upgrade.  Has anybody had this kind of problem with wireless connections or know how to fix it?

Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 26^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Yes, that's one of my biggest concerns with forced hardware updates. In my years of experience I've seen way too many botched systems caused by Microsoft updating an OEM manufacturer's customized drivers.

To clarify:

I normally use a USB-mouse but occasionally don't bother connecting it. On the screen prior to logging in, the touchpad worked but after logging in on Win10 it didn't work, which indicated a driver issue.

When I searched for a possible cause, there were no updates to Win10 "in the pipeline", everything updated.

Soon enough, I found out that the touchpad had been disabled. I reenebled it and it immediately worked. I went back to WU to find out which update could be the culprit. That's when I found the driver update "in the pipeline".

Could it be that Win10 disabled the touchpad because it found a (non existing) driver issue? When I reenabled the touchpad, it offered the (not needed) driver update.

No matter what, I like it better the "old way" when the user is in control. When I, the user, find an issue, I search for a solution. After Win10 messing with it, a USB-mouse was needed since the touchpad was "dead".

Some checking finds the wireless adapter on the connection problem PC in Win8.1 was using Atheros AR9285 driver which was working correctly, but Win10 shows it's using Atheros AR9485 driver.  A customer review at Amazon says it's Atheros AR9380.  Then I tried uninstalling the device in Windows and restarted to have Windows reinstall it which didn't help.  It shows Win10 drivers available at https://www.atheros-drivers.com/ for the AR9285 and AR9485 adapters but no download link there.  I find links to download the AR9485 drivers at http://www.driverscape.com/download/qualcomm-atheros-ar9485-wireless-network-adapter, but that's a third party source which I don't know is reliable or not; also at http://www.driverscape.com/download/qualcomm-atheros-ar9285-wireless-network-adapter the same source has the AR9285 drivers.

Unfortunately Qualcom offers no end user driver support according to the Qualcom web site.  At this point I may have to risk the third party downloads.  I'm unsure if Windows will let me install the AR9285 driver since it identifies the adapter as the AR9485.  I guess I could try both to see.  Worst case scenario I may have to go back to Win8.1 on that PC to get wireless to work.  What a pain!

Tator wrote on Jul 27^th, 2016 at 11:02am:

It shows Win10 drivers available at https://www.atheros-drivers.com/ for the AR9285 and AR9485 adapters but no download link there.  I find links to download the AR9485 drivers at http://www.driverscape.com/download/qualcomm-atheros-ar9485-wireless-network-ada..., but that's a third party source which I don't know is reliable or not

What makes you think atheros-drivers.com isn't a third-party site? The webpage even says it's an "unofficial" site, and checking the domain's whois shows it's not associated with Qualcomm (the Atheros' maker).

Nonetheless, I visited atheros-drivers.com in a virtual machine (just to make sure the site wasn't going to infect me), and I was able to download both the AR9285 and AR9485 drivers for Win10. It's pretty convoluted--you have to click about 3 or 4 "Download" links, most of which don't download but take you to yet another page, but eventually it downloaded the drivers as zip files. I opened the zip files to check the contents and they appear to be legitimate drivers, not a junkware-added repackaging like many third-party driver sites do.

I wouldn't hesitate to try the atheros-drivers.com drivers. I'd probably try the 9285 driver because you know that worked before.

Another Win10 restore to a different computer. Source was HP laptop. Target was Asus desktop. Both were UEFI mode. No problems.

I tried the 9285 driver which didn't help.  Then I tried the 9485 that works very well as it did before upgrade.

I attempted to upgrade the Dell laptop form Win7, but the upgrade failed.  For the Desktop upgrades done the upgrade automatically uninstalled Zonealarm and showed a message it was uninstalled after upgrade completed.  However, for the laptop it prompted me to manually uninstall Zonealarm during setup.  The manual uninstall prompted me to restart to complete the uninstall which I did.  I then had to restart the upgrade, and it got stuck for over 2 hours at the "Finding Updates" step.  I restarted and tried again skipping the"Install Updates" step, and it proceeded to the point of 8% complete installing Win10 where it got stuck again for over 2 hours.  I don't know if it's now possible to upgrade that laptop.

@ Tator

How are you doing the upgrade? Which method?

The media creation tool was used to make ISO that was burned to DVD, and Setup was run from DVD while booted to the Win7Home Desktop.

A few ideas came to me.  I think the Setup was corrupted by the uninstall of Zonealarm whose restart to complete the uninstall interrupted Setup causing the corruption, and Setup keeps using part of the corrupted data.  The only ways I can think to resolve the problem is by 1 of 3 means. to get rid of the now corrupt data used by Setup.  I can use Rescue media to return to factory conditions, restore the backup image or format the C drive and do a fresh install of Win7Home before retrying the upgrade.  I'm favoring the fresh install due to all the bloatware that come on the laptop which I never use anyway.  However, I've never done this on a laptop and wonder if all correct drivers will be installed or where to get drivers if they're not installed.  Which do you think the best option, and how can drivers be installed if they're not installed in a fresh install?  Can the upgrade be run immediately after fresh install, or are there Service Packs or Updates that should first be installed in Win7 before starting the upgrade?  Also I assume Win7 fresh install would have to be the Home version to be activated, and a fresh install of Win7Pro would not be activated.  Is this correct?   

@ Tator

When I used the Media Creation Tool last year, it failed every time. This ISO worked every time. Either from a UFD or DVD. I still use this ISO to make a UFD with Rufus. Run setup.exe on the UFD or DVD in Windows. Don't boot from the UFD or ISO.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench

Select Windows 10. Not the other 3 choices.

By this ISO worked every time do you mean the one from that download and not the one created by the Media Creation Tool?  Selecting Win10 choice at top of page goes to a page that has only options to upgrade now or get the Media Creation Tool with no ISO download link I can see there.  Am I missing something or where is the download link?

FYI I found there's a link to download a a tool from Microsoft to Prevent Windows Update From Installing Specific Updates and Drivers after I reread the article at http://www.howtogeek.com/224471/how-to-prevent-windows-10-from-automatically-downloading-updates/ .  This seems to be the only way I've seen to have any control over which updates are installed.  BTW I've noticed popups occur periodically in Win10 from Sprint, Panasonic and others while using Firefox.  I never had this issue in Win8.1. Could this be coming from Firefox, Microsoft Edge or just a part of Win10 privacy issues?  Is there a way to stop these popups?

Does anybody else here know where Brian obtained the ISO he referenced?  Time is growing short since free upgrade offer expires tomorrow, and I've much more work to do if that ISO doesn't complete upgrade install.  Is there a source for some other ISO that might work if I'm unable to find the one referenced?

Edit:  I finally realized there's a drop down near the bottom of the page Brian referenced with 4 choices, and I saw in another forum selecting 10 from that drop down downloads a file that may be used for either Home or Professional versions.  Downloading it right know.

To paraphrase Tator's reply #39, "The only ways I can think to resolve the problem is:"

• "use Rescue media to return to factory conditions", or
  
• "restore the backup image [I made earlier]", or
  
• "format and do a fresh install of Win7Home before retrying the upgrade."

Does your machine have a built-in factory restore option? If so, you should be able to perform a factory restore without Rescue media and then upgrade directly to Win10, provided your factory restore leaves you with Win7 SP1 or Win8.1. If not SP1, then Win7 needs to be updated to SP1 first, and if a factory restore leaves you with Win8.0 I believe you need to upgrade to 8.1 first. None of the other monthly MS updates need to be applied or brought up to date.


re: the Atheros wifi problem, I just discovered my Inspiron 1012 uses the AR9285, and it works fine on Win10.


Honestly, though, I've gotten a bit confused about what you're working on. I've had to reread a couple times before realizing your posts were evidently going back and forth about different computers. So if I now read correctly:

• you have three unspecified desktops and one Dell laptop;
  
• desktop 1 upgraded to Win10 successfully;
  
• desktop 2 upgraded from 8.1 to Win10 successfully;
  
• desktop 3 has Atheros wifi adapter, upgrade from 8.1 to Win10 initially had driver problem but now works successfully;
  
• Dell laptop is the one you were worried about with three partitions, and you haven't successfully installed Win10 yet.

Have I got that straight?

So the Atheros problem was a different computer and is now fixed anyway, and now the only problem is a Dell laptop (which model?) that came with OEM Win7 Home Premium (is it SP1?), and you're having trouble getting the Win10 upgrade to install.

And the Dell laptop is the one you're contemplating doing a factory restore? Then yes, it should have a factory restore option on the F8/Recovery menu.

Yes, that is all correct.  I now have the ISO from the link in reply #40 burned to DVD, and I started Win10 Setup while booted to the laptop about 2 hours before posting this reply.  Currently it's still in the Getting Updates step of the install.  I don't know if it's stuck again nor do I know how long this should take on a laptop.

Edit:  I also started another download of the ISO from the link in reply #40 around 2 hours ago, and progress bar shows approximately 2 thirds complete.  This download is being done over a wireless connection, and the laptop would connect wirelessly too if it's downloading the updates.  The ISO download done earlier was done on a PC connected directly to the router by ethernet, and that download took only 7 minutes.  The Getting Updates could be taking longer during Setup if it's downloading updates.

Tator wrote on Jul 28^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

Currently it's still in the Getting Updates step of the install.

Where is that step? At the start or the end of the install? I always remove the tick from the Updates box and do the Updates later.

Regarding Win10 upgrade time. 15 minutes on a fast computer. 3 hours on an Atom tablet.

That step is near the beginning.  I suspect the slow download is due to the wireless connection.  I'm going to cancel the install, restart it and elect not to get updates during setup.

Has it done the first restart yet? After copying files.

Setup was restarted about 1 hour and 10 minutes ago, and the first restart was about 5 minutes ago.  It seems to be progressing normally and hopefully will complete this time. 

So now you are seeing the big circle with the percentage numbers in the circle? You will get a restart at 30% and again at 75%.

Setup completed successfully about 5 minutes ago and completed in about 1 hour and 40 minutes from start of Setup.  Not bad for a laptop which is usually slower than a desktop any way.  Thanks to all for the help and special thanks to Dan Goodell and Brian for sharing their knowledge and their assistance.

Excellent!!!!!!

Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 24^th, 2016 at 2:59pm:

It seems like they'll have to monetize their R&D somehow. The three most obvious business models would be to either (a) sell it, (b) make it a subscription service, or (c) make it ad supported.

More news to suggest which direction Microsoft may be heading:

More forced advertising creeps into Windows 10 Pro

7 ways Windows 10 pushes ads at you, and how to stop them

When I started upgrade on 1 of the desktops, I noticed its clock was almost 3 hours slow which I set to current time and started the upgrade.  After upgrade I began to wonder why the clock was slow. I checked Manage/Services/Windows Time and found it was set to manual. but I think it should be set to Automatic.  To test I reset the internet time sync interval to 1 hour, checked time in a couple of hours, but it hadn't changed.  FYI there's a regedit at http://www.vistax64.com/tutorials/89800-internet-time-synchronization-update-interval.html to reset the sync interval in case some here may not know.  I changed the Windows Time service to Automatic and reset the sync interval from default setting of 1 week to 12 hours.

There's another time issue I had due to my dual boot on the 3 desktops.  First I changed WinXP not to adjust for daylight savings time(DST), but that caused clock to be set back to standard time when I booted to WinXP.  Then boot to Win8.1 before and now Win10 did not reset to correct time I believe due to Windows Time being set to Manual.  Setting Windows Time to Automatic should correct this to a degree, but I decided to simply disable the Windows Time service in WinXP since I'm usually running WinXP for no more than 2 hours at a time and use Win10 most of the time.

At http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/2066-windows-old-folder-delete-windows-10-a.html there are ways to delete Windows.old and $Windows.~BT.  Windows.old is 15.5GB in Win10, total current size of drive C is 45.5GB, and deleting Windows.old would decrease that size by 1 third which is a nice disk space savings.  Are there any reasons those 2 files should not be deleted since I have backup images to restore Win8.1 if needed?

Earlier when I downloaded the ISO, it asked me if I wanted to burn DVD to which I checked Yes.  A message popped up "You have insufficient permission to perform this action" after which I clicked Cancel.  It said "Are you sure?  Cancel may make the disk unusable."  I  clicked Cancel which did make that disk unusable.  Not knowing what else to do I booted WinXP and burned disk using Nero.  Why did I get that message in Win10, and is there a way to fix this issue? 
 
    

@ Tator


Tator wrote on Jul 31^st, 2016 at 6:27am:

A message popped up "You have insufficient permission to perform this action"

Try this as it will correct Permissions and Ownership of that file. Put the ISO in a folder eg X:\Tator (change X to your drive letter) Run this batch file. Run as Admin.


Code:

takeown /f "X:\Tator" /r icacls "X:\Tator" /grant users:F /t

The 15.5GB Windows.old file referred to in reply #53 was removed, but disk space only increased 12.5GB.  This happened on 2 of the desktops that were upgraded.  Anybody know why this happened or where the 3GB discrepancy went?

FYI I've used Seagate Discwizard for backups for many years now, but it's gotten slower and slower as data size to backup increases.  Discwizard was used to do my Win8.1 backup prior to upgrade and took about 2 hours to create image plus another 2 hours to verify image.  I've successfully tested EaseUS Todo Backup before and used it to backup Win10 after upgrade.  EaseUS Todo Backup took just 15 minutes to create the larger idata of Win10 image and only 5 minutes to check the image.  EaseUS Todo Backup is very easy to use as well, and I recommend to others looking for a fast and easy to use alternative. 

I found this interesting. Win10 1607 was installed as a fresh install to an empty partition on a multi-boot computer. BIBM was the boot manager so the BIOS was in MBR mode. The partition was imaged with IFW and the image was written to a shared folder in that same computer.

The target computer had Win10 installed in UEFI mode. An IFL UFD was booted and all partitions on HD0 were deleted. The disk remained as GPT. A network restore was performed (the image was still on the first computer) using the "Restore First Track" option. The disk was now EMBR because of the "Restore First Track"option. The "Change Disk Type" script was used to convert EMBR to GPT. ESP and MSR partitions were created by this procedure.

Win10 on the target computer booted in UEFI mode. No issues at all. Win10 was automatically Activated as this computer had previously had an Activated Win10.

Win10 is certainly forgiving on different hardware.

A few days ago I helped a mate build a new computer. His old computer was a Dell and the new computer contained an Asus MB. We transferred the HD0 SSD from the Dell to the new computer. Win10 booted. Nothing extra needed to be done. Well, apart from later installing drivers for the new Asus MB.

@ Tator


Tator wrote on Aug 9^th, 2016 at 7:15pm:

Anybody know why this happened or where the 3GB discrepancy went?

The figure shown in Disk Clean-up is only an indication. I've seen it out by 20 GB. But it's usually out by a few GB.

Brian wrote on Aug 10^th, 2016 at 5:28pm:

@ Tator Tator wrote on Aug 9th, 2016 at 7:15pm: Anybody know why this happened or where the 3GB discrepancy went? The figure shown in Disk Clean-up is only an indication. I've seen it out by 20 GB. But it's usually out by a few GB.

I didn't go by what Disk Cleanup said.  I checked the size of Windows.old file (15.5GB), the size of data on the C drive (45.6GB) before Windows .old was removed and the size of data on drive C (32.9GB) after removing Windows.old.  Subtracting Windows.old file size from drive C size before its removal should equal what's there now (45.6GB-15.5GB=30.1GB), but drive C size after removal is 2.8GB more than what the calculation results are.

Another problem has arisen on the first desktop upgraded from Win8.1 to Win10 on the Win10/WinXP dual boot system.  Around a week ago a problem occurred while booted to Win10 on the dual boot Win10/WinXP system that has WinXP on one hard drive and Win10 on the other hard drive. It gave "Windows encountered a problem and must restart" error message. Upon restart "NTLDR is missing" message was given. By booting to Bart PE CD I learned the hard drive boot order had been switched in the BIOS and had to reset the BIOS boot order in order to boot Windows, and Windows tries to repair itself upon restart following BIOS boot order reset. After the Windows repair everything runs much slower for about 10 minutes after Windows is started, Zonealarm fails to start, and going to the Pandora radio site causes system lockup at times.  I can fix these problems by restoring an image that was created before the problem began, but I suspect the problem will recur.  The 2 hard drives are identical, exact same size and same model Seagate drives. That same problem recurred today.  Is this a Win10 problem or a BIOS problem, and would switching one of the hard drives to a different model help? Since the problem occurred while booted to Win10, I suspect it's more likely a Win10 issue. Also I never had this kind of problem when I was using Win8.1. Has anybody had this problem with Win10 or know how to fix the problem?

In another forum somebody suggested using EasyBCD instead of boot.ini to dual boot, but I suspect that wouldn't help since the boot order in the BIOS is switched while Widows is running.  I may have to revert to Win8.1 for a lasting fix if a solution can't be found for the current problem.

@ Tator

I multi-boot WinXP, Vista, Win7, Win8, Win10 and Linux on the same drive with BIBM. I haven't experienced your issue. I never use the Microsoft boot manager.

@ Tator



Tator wrote on Oct 18^th, 2016 at 11:16am:

By booting to Bart PE CD I learned the hard drive boot order had been switched in the BIOS and had to reset the BIOS boot order in order to boot Windows,

Hmmmm.....I can enter the BIOS directly during system boot by hitting the *Delete* key on my computer.  Or, I can use *F8* that brings up the boot sequence--no need to use any Bart PE CD.


Tator wrote on Oct 18^th, 2016 at 11:16am:

I can fix these problems by restoring an image that was created before the problem began,

To my knowledge, restoring an image does not effect the BIOS settings in any way--the image may not have whatever software is responsible for accessing the BIOS--but the restored image would not *reset* the BIOS boot order just by restoring the image--you must be resetting that manually prior to the image restore.

Secondly, dual booting using *boot.ini* works by pointing the boot process to a specific HDD and partition using ID numbers that have been assigned to those locations.  The Windows dual boot does not use changes to the boot order in the BIOS.  So.....something else is going on with your system that is unrelated to the the dual boot software--at least as far as I know and understand!


Tator wrote on Oct 18^th, 2016 at 11:16am:

I may have to revert to Win8.1 for a lasting fix if a solution can't be found for the current problem.

Here's a thought--you should be able to set an *Admin* password for the system and/or the BIOS from within the BIOS--I wonder if that would prevent the access to the BIOS form whatever software is performing that function.  If you set it for the System--then you will need to enter the password during boot.  If you set it for the BIOS, you will have to enter the password to access the BIOS.

Let us know what you find out!

(I'd be looking at programs or malware that you have installed on Win10--knowingly or unknowingly!)

The same problem recurred 11/5/16, I again restored the Win10 image, and on the very first startup in Win10 everything was extremely slow to unresponsive which lead me to conclude it isn't a software issue.  Then I ran chkdsk /r that found no problems.  Now bios boot order randomly changes or 1 of the hard drives is not detected in the bios.  Next I connected sata cables to different ports on the motherboard which didn't help.  Then I ran memtest86, and memory passed tests.  Finally I tested hard drives using Seagate Seatools that resulted in Disk1 passing but Disk0 failing the long generic test.  Disk1 is where WinXP is installed, and Disk0 is where Win10 is installed.  This probably explains why WinXP still runs normally while Win10 does not.

Will replacing the hard drive require Win10 reactivation, and will reactivation be permitted with a hard drive change? 

@ Tator


Tator wrote on Nov 9^th, 2016 at 10:54am:

Will replacing the hard drive require Win10 reactivation, and will reactivation be permitted with a hard drive change?

No problems at all. Win10 will automatically activate on the first startup.

About a day after replacing the drive and restoring Win10 image to the replacement drive, the PC clock was 68 minutes slow.  I'm unsure whether that's related to the drive switch or maybe a sign the cmos batter is dying.  If the battery is getting weak could that cause the hard drive test to give a false bad test result?

Also copy and paste behavior is significantly altered.  Using File Explorer to copy and paste used to show progress of the paste step on top of the File Explorer window, but now it's under that window and other windows that are open.  Could a weak battery cause this behavior, or what else might cause it?  Has anybody seen this behavior, have any idea of the cause or know how to fix this?   

Brian wrote on Jul 28^th, 2016 at 7:50am:

@ Tator When I used the Media Creation Tool last year, it failed every time. This ISO worked every time. Either from a UFD or DVD. I still use this ISO to make a UFD with Rufus. Run setup.exe on the UFD or DVD in Windows. Don't boot from the UFD or ISO. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench Select Windows 10. Not the other 3 choices.

This link now gives "We are sorry, the page you requested cannot be found."  Is there a way to obtain this same iso anywhere else  via download from a pc running Windows Vista?  A friend wants to do a clean Win10 install, but all the download links he has tried give a message that says the iso file can only be downloaded from a computer running Win7 or later.