Radified Community Forums - Comparing HDDs

Crawdaddy

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #15 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 6:52am In the end the most important thing is the reliability of your images. Speed comes in a destant second. Altho I too wonder why the difference.
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #16 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 7:17am

Hi Crawdaddy!

I´m with You all the way on that one but 2.5 -3 times slower is too much to swallow without trying to find out why.

I just did an Integrity Check on an Image on the 7K250 with the 60GXP powered off in the rack in order to rule out any possibility of interference. Still slow as molasses!

One observation that I have failed to mention is that the time ticks down second by second when the 60GXP is at work but when the 7K250 is at work, it can pause for several seconds (5-10) and then it catches up.

I think that all of this compounds into a very strange behaviour!

Christer

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If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Ian Dunster

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #17 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 9:26am

Hi Christer.

One observation that I have failed to mention is that the time ticks down second by second when the 60GXP is
at work but when the 7K250 is at work, it can pause for several seconds (5-10) and then it catches up.

That sounds like something to do with the cache on the 7K250. There is a diagnostic program from Hitachi that you
could run here:

http://www.hgst.com/hdd/support/download.htm

and the user manual is here:

http://www.hgst.com/downloads/dft32_user-guide.pdf

Their main support home page is here:

http://www.hgst.com/portal/site/hgst/?epi_menuItemID=a401d71a474b26fe25ad4e8060e...

Try the diagnostic and see if it comes up with anything.

Ian 8)

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Ian Dunster

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #18 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 10:03am

Hi again Christer!

Update:

The drive may not have been sut-up INTERNALLY to operate DMA, or at ATA100/133, and may actually be operating WITHOUT DMA, or at ATA66 - See below:

Feature Tool (v1.92)
The Feature Tool allows you to control some of the features of our Deskstar and Travelstar high performance ATA hard disk drives and supports 48-bit addressing, so it will work with the new large capacity drives. This version adds support for our latest drives. The Feature Tool allows you to:

Enable or disable the read-ahead or write cache. - THIS MIGHT BE DISABLED - IAN

Change the drive Automatic Acoustic Management settings to the:
Lowest acoustic emanation setting (Quiet Seek Mode), or
Maximum performance level (Normal Seek Mode).

Change the predefined capacity of the drive. This option can be used in situations where there is a BIOS limitation and the drive is not recognized. See the Users Guide for specific details.

Switch the Ultra DMA mode - THIS MIGHT BE INCORRECTLY SET - IAN

Change Advanced Power Mode - allows you to change between the lowest power consumption and the highest power consumption (maximum performance level).
Show Drive Temperature - shows the current drive temperature in Celsius and Farenheit.

My SeaGate drive also has a utility for changing the INTERNAL settings, but I didn't need to change any as they were already correct. - some BIOS's and older PC's cannot use ATA100/33, so when ATA100/133 drives first came out, the drives were set INTERNALLY to ATA66 by default to maintain compatibility - the user had to manually change them to ATA100 mode.

I think the 'Enable or disable the read-ahead or write cache' setting might be your problem - it should be ENABLED.

Let us know what happens!

Ian 8)

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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #19 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 12:59pm

Hi Ian!

I´ve been busy this afternoon but not with anything that I´m paid for ...... Lips Sealed

...... !

When I prepared to install the new HDD, I ran IBM DFT on both the 60GXP and the 7K250. They both came out "green". Afterwards I did an "Erase Disk" on the 60GXP and finally updated the firmware on it.

Now, there was a new version of IBM DFT which I downloaded an ran with the same results.

Quote:

The drive may not have been sut-up INTERNALLY to operate DMA, or at ATA100/133, and may actually be operating WITHOUT DMA, or at ATA66

I´ve been playing with thoughts along those lines too but the AIDA32 benchmarks indicate that it is operating in "Ultra DMA Mode 5" = ATA100. If not, the Buffered Read would not go above 66 MB/s.

About "Quick Seek Mode" and "Normal Seek Mode", I think that the AIDA32 benchmarks on Average Access indicate that it is operating in "Normal".

I downloaded the Feature Tool too and will run it later just to confirm what I think I know or to find the problem.

By the way, I have created and used all flavours of Ghost Boot Disks, using MS-DOS and PC-DOS as well with the same results.

I checked the opticals and the CD-R/RW operating in "Multi-Word DMA Mode 2" = PIO4, checks an Image at 101-103 MB/s. The DVD-ROM operating in "Ultra DMA Mode 2" = ATA33, checks an Image at 106-108 MB/s.

It seems to me like Ghost misidentifies the 7K250 ...... ??? ...... In IBM DFT, the 60GXP is said to be DMA Mode 5 where as the 7K250 is said to be DMA Mode 6 (or words which I don´t remember exactly, to that meaning).

According to the WinXP Device Manager, the mentioned devices operate in the mode within "double quotes".

I´ll be back ...... Angry

...... !

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #20 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 1:29pm

I´ve had a look in the Feature Tool and both HDDs were identically configured:

SMART status = GOOD
UDMA mode = ATA100
Accoustic management = Disabled (which I understand as giving the best performance)
Power management = Disabled (which I understand as giving the best performance)
Write cache = Enabled
Read look-ahead = Enabled

If I have understood this correctly, the HDDs are properly configured and the problem isn´t with the 7K250.

My belief that it is a case of mistaken identity is strenghtened.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Christer

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #21 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 1:31pm By the way, I´m concidering asking Symantec Support but I think that we have made me run around in circles all by our selves, haven´t we ...... ...... ?
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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #22 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 1:36pm I´ve been busy this afternoon but not with anything that I´m paid for ...... ...... ! Hmm... sounds naughty!! I have a feeling that the drive is not using the read-ahead or write cache - this would slow the drive considerably. Have a look and see if it's enabled. Ian. 8)
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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #23 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 1:38pm Must have been typing when you posted - didn't see the last posts! Will have a think about it! Ian 8)
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Ian Dunster

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #24 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 1:54pm

'the 7K250 is said to be DMA Mode 6 (or words which I don´t remember exactly, to that meaning). '

UDMA Mode 6 is ATA133

UDMA Mode 5 is ATA100

try changing it to UDMA 5/ATA100

(or conversely, change it to UDMA 6/ATA 133)

If you have one setting as ATA100 and are trying to use UDMA 6 then it's possible that could be the trouble - DOS, i.e. the Ghost environment, is very unfriendly at the system level - if it doesn't like something it may not even tell you why!

BTW, I don't know what happenned to the page width on my earlier post!!

Ian 8)

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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #25 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 2:09pm Hi AGAIN Christer! SMART status = GOOD UDMA mode = ATA100 - This is UDMA 5 - for UDMA 6 it should be ATA133 Try changing it. Ian 8)
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #26 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 2:14pm

Running the Drive Fitness Test, the 7K250 is said to have "ATA Compliance = ATA-6" whereas the 60GXP is said to have "ATA Compliance = ATA-5".

Running the Feature Tool, they are both said to have "Max UDMA Mode = 5" and it is possible to set them to Mode 0-5.
Both were/are set to Mode 5.

If Hitachi has problems detecting what the 7K250 is, then there is the possibility that I´m right about Ghost mistaking the identity and performance.

Christer

To Radministrator:

Is it possible to reverse the order of the previous posts? A lot of scrolling to get to the bottom when copying and pasting ...... Undecided

...... but that´s my own fault ...... Grin

......

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #27 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 3:17pm

Have a look at the web pages below, discussing transfer rates and compare to what I get from my devices:

http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/modesUDMA.html
and
http://www.storagereview.com/guide2000/ref/hdd/if/ide/modesDMA.html

All my devices transfer at rates below Ultra DMA Mode 0 which is 16.7 MB/s.
This indicates to me that it is Ghost that is setting the standards and it got it all wrong with the 7K250.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #28 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 5:32pm Try putting the two HDD's on different controllers, and then see if that makes a difference - The drive set as MASTER may be hogging the bus - try this: Primary Master - 7K250 Primary Slave - DVD-ROM Secondary Master CD-R/RW Secondary Slave - 60GXP Ian. 8)
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #29 - Mar 8^th, 2004 at 7:16pm

All the devices are jumpered to Cable Select but I don´t think that it would make any difference if jumpered Master and Slave respectively.

When I bought and installed the mobile rack, the only option that worked was to use CS. Any other jumping and the computer didn´t boot, it didn´t detect the PM.

Since I have the 60GXP in the mobile rack, I have tried powering it off, leaving the 7K250 alone on the Primary but no change in behaviour.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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