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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #60 - Mar 22^nd, 2004 at 7:51pm

Norway is a small country bordering to Sweden, Finland and Russia. The nature is quite beautiful with ondulating landscape in the south, developing into mountains towards the north. The only drawback is that the price level is rather high, approximately 1½-2 times the level in Sweden. Some people actually work in Norway but live in Sweden, taking the benefit of higher wages and lower living expenses on the respective side of the border.

We were in Vågå which is a small community within the Jotunheimen National Park ( http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/europe/norway/norway.htm ) with the two highest mountains in Norway, Glittertind (2464m MSL) and Galdhöpiggen (2469m MSL).

We were taking off from (and landing back on) a frozen lake, Vågåvattnet, at 370m MSL.
I made a flight, releasing from the tow plane at 1.200m GND and the highest altitude I reached was 6.600-6.700m GND. If You add the 370m starting altitude, You´ll get approximately 7.000m MSL which is the limit for the quite simple oxygen equipment we use in gliders. You can fly higher but then You need to get personally adapted equipment, emergency oxygen and take tests in an under pressure chamber.

That flight earned me a diamond in my badge for a 5.000m altitude gain above the lowest point after release from the tow plane, well, 5.513m to be exact ...... Grin

......

We are utilizing waves to gain altitude. The waves are formed under certain conditions. You need to have a positive wind gradient with increasing altitude (wind speed increasing with the altitude) and an obstacle (a mountain) to get the air to start undulating like sinus waves. If a second obstacle (another mountain) is in the path the wave pattern is augmented. The positive wind gradient makes it increase its amplitude to great hights.

Christer

By the way, MSL = above Mean Sea Level and GND = above Ground.

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If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Ian Dunster

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #61 - Mar 23^rd, 2004 at 8:13am

That's a coincidence!

I was planning to do a five-day gliding course here:

http://www.kent-gliding-club.co.uk/cgi-local/public_headline.cgi

last year, but I didn't get round to doing it during the summer - in winter the days are too short, so you can't get in as many flights per day.

I was going to try again this year, but I will have to see what happens.

I last did some flying when I was 14, and there's a bit about it, (in my rather c****y web site!) here:

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ie.dunster/

Ian 8)

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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #62 - Mar 23^rd, 2004 at 8:46am

Well, before someone else states the obvious ...... Roll Eyes

...... it´s a small world!

I started my gliding training in 1974 and managed to get my license in 1975. Since 1982, I´ve been Chief of Operations in our club and since 1996, I´ve "worked" as a Flight Safety Instructor for the Swedish Soaring Federation. "Worked" within double quotes since it´s not an activity that increases my wealth, rather the opposite but it is quite interesting.

Whenever You end up in the extreme south of Sweden ...... Wink

......

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #63 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 9:27am

I quote their response to my first question(s):

Quote:

Hello Christer,

Thank you for contacting Symantec Online Technical Support.

From your message you are wanting help to speed up the performance of Ghost while create images in various ways. The speed slowdown seems to be from the 7K250 hard drive alone.

You have attempted about all the relevant switches that are available. The only one that I can think of using is the -NTC- switch (Disable NTFS contiguous cluster run allocation.) This switch is useful when the MFT is fragmented and Ghost is trying to read it while making an image.

Also it could depend upon what compression you are using. With High, it would be slower. At None and at Fast there may be no noticeable slow down.

It could be that the hard drive is slow to be accessed when imaging to the hard drive, or when imaging from the hard drive. If the -NTC- does not help, there really is no way to speed up the Ghost operation.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

Best regards,

Franz Lochridge
Symantec Authorized Technical Support

and my follow up question(s):

Quote:

Hello Franz,
thanks for Your prompt response!

The -ntc- switch made no difference.
I honestly didn´t expect it to, since the 60GXP performance is not affected
by any possible MFT fragmentation. The number of MFT fragments on the imaged
partition is two (2), which is the minimum number. The images all reside on
FAT32 partitions.

A few thoughts:

The -fnu switch does not force PIO as it is said to do, see:

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/ghost.nsf/8f7dc138830563c888256c2200662ecd/...

It forces Extended Int 13h on both the 7K250 and the 60GXP.
Is that an error in the knowledge base or an error in Ghost?

The rates for the 7K250 is only slightly quicker than the performance of my
CD-R/RW Samsung SW-408B. This prompts a few questions:

How does Ghost determine which device it is reading from / writing to?

Does Ghost do its own detection or does it go by BIOS information?

How does Ghost adapt to different drives?

I have copied the ghststat.txt below and I hope that the contents may reveal
the cause and provide a solution:

(ghststat.txt omitted)

Best regards,
Christer

and I, as usual, forgot something:

Quote:

Hello again, Franz!

I forgot to mention that I use no compression.

Best regards,
Christer

Let´s wait and see if he is inclined to dig deeper into my issue.

Christer

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If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Christer

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #64 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 10:20am I have now sent a message to Hitachi with the approximately same contents as the first message sent to Symantec Support. Maybe they know what´s up and have a firmware update or something else up their sleeve. Christer
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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #65 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 10:28am It could be that the hard drive is slow to be accessed when imaging to the hard drive, or when imaging from the hard drive. Yes, we know that, but why? Ian. 8)
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #66 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 2:08pm

The second reply from Symantec Support which I think is leading into a dead end:

Quote:

Welcome Back Christer,

After some research, the compression level would have been the only thing that I could have suggested. Since you are using

Even with no compression, there still is no way to speed up the Ghost operation with a switch. It really is dependant upon the drive, it's internal speed, and the motherboard. Those factors are the biggest factors in determining the speed of the transfers.

Best regards,

Franz Lochridge
Symantec Authorized Technical Support

I have received the first response from Hitachi but they mistook my drive for a SATA. It is a PATA.

They said that the rates are normal for a SATA drive ...... ??? ...... Shocked

...... !

Christer

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If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #67 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 8:27pm 'Welcome Back Christer,' I didn't know that you'd been away!! (Just back from pub! - 00:26hrs GMT - slightly p****d!) Ian. 8)
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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #68 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 8:37pm On second thoughts, perhaps you told them you were going to Norge! As I said, I am a bit p****d! Apologies Christer!! Ian! 8)
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #69 - Mar 24^th, 2004 at 8:51pm

No worries! ...... or how they say it down under?

Symantec Support are always very polite. When You get back to them a second time on the same issue, that´s always the greeting - Welcome Back!

I´ve had a few "conversations" with them but we are not on such friendly terms that I tell them where I spend my vacation ...... Wink

......

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Ian Dunster

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #70 - Mar 25^th, 2004 at 6:42am I had a few beers last night! Ian.
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #71 - Mar 26^th, 2004 at 4:57am

Ian,
I´m glad that I didn´t have a few beers because I managed to reply to a "non-reply" address to Hitachi!

I did it right this time (I think) and sent this message:

Quote:

With reference to the below pasted response, I´d like to thank You for Your promtness!

The drive is however not a SATA, it´s a PATA and I don´t know if it makes a difference.

If the low rates are normal for the PATA too, is there an explanation for the low rates for the 7K250 in combination with Ghost?

Our latest correspondence:

Dear Mr Engdahl,

thank you for your email.

We checked with our technical department and the tranfer rate that you
mention is the right one for SATA drives.

If you need further information please don't hesitate to contact us again

Best Regards

Hitachi Global Storage Technologies
------------------ In Response To ------------------

Delivered Date: 03-24-2004 08:17:59+6
First Name: Christer
Last Name: Engdahl
Email: christer.engdahl@bredband.net
Phone:
Country: Sweden
Family: deskstar
Serial Number: C3C9DR1K
Model Number: HDS722512VLAT80
BIOS: Award Modular 04/09/03
Operating System: Windows XP Professional SP1
Subject: Support feedback from: Christer Engdahl

Comments:
I have a problem with differing
transfer rates on my hard drives when
either creating a Norton Ghost Image
or checking the integrity of an Image.
I have not yet had the reason to
restore using an Image.

My hardware setup:

Primary Master – Hitachi Deskstar
7K250 HDS722512VLAT80 – three
partitions
C: NTFS – D: NTFS – E: FAT32

Primary Slave - IBM Deskstar 60GXP
IC35L040AVER07-0 – two partitions
F: NTFS – G: FAT32

Secondary Master – Samsung SW-408B
Secondary Slave – Samsung SD-612S

I run ghost.exe from Ghost Boot Disks
with CD/DVD support but have also
tried a Standard GBD w/o CD/DVD
support but the results are the same
(identical).

When creating an Image of C: to E: or
when checking the integrity of the
Image on E:, the operation is 2.5-3
times slower than when creating an
Image of C: to G: or when checking the
integrity of the Image on G:.

When creating an Image of F: to G: or
when checking the integrity of the
Image on G:, the operation is 2.5-3
times quicker than when creating an
Image of F: to E: or when checking the
integrity of the Image on E:.

During the creation of an Image with
the target partition on the 60GXP, the
rates are approximately 342 MB/sec and
the rates during the integrity check
are approximately 390 MB/sec.

During the creation of an Image with
the target partition on the 7K250, the
rates are approximately 136 MB/sec and
the rates during the integrity check
are approximately 145 MB/sec.

I would appreciate any advice on how
to correct this problem concerning the
low rates on the 7K250!

Thanks for Your time,
Christer

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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Rad

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #72 - Mar 26^th, 2004 at 5:36am Sounds like the boyz at Symantec aren't being very helpful.
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Christer

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	Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results Reply #73 - Mar 26^th, 2004 at 6:18am Well, they aren´t breaking their backs! I don´t know the weight of an E-mail but they must get tons of them. I wonder if they have a system to assist in deciding if a problem is a one-off or if it is a true Ghost Bug? Christer
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Christer

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Re: Comparing HDDs - strange results
Reply #74 - Mar 30^th, 2004 at 9:36am

An update:

I thought of the XP motherboard drivers which are the ones installed during XP setup and I updated to VIAs own drivers in two steps, first to 4in1_v443 which is the lates for the "older" chip sets and then to 4in1_v451 which "can" cause problems with "older" chip sets.

Well, I didn´t have any problem with any of them ...... Sad

...... other than that the issue with the 7K250 persists.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

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