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Mackjazz

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #15 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 1:16pm

Here is my reference of the FAT32 volume limitation size in WinXP

MS FAT32
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314463

Actually as I think about it I would not mind if the OS was a 30gb Fat32 with programs and then the rest of the new 80gb disk was partitioined as a NTFS data drive. I guess this would mean that I would make 2 images of my new working large drive and place both the FAT32 and NTFS partition images in the old 40gb drive for backup. Could it be done this way? Also would it be okay to make the new D: NTFS partition one with disk compression?

thx for all the tips and advice.
Mack

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Mackjazz

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #16 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 1:19pm

Here are excerpts from the MS on FAT32 limitations.
--
Limitations of the FAT32 File System in Windows XP
View products that this article applies to.
Article ID:314463
Last Review:September 4, 2002
Revision:1.0
This article was previously published under Q314463
For a Microsoft Windows 2000 version of this article, see 184006 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/184006/EN-US/).
SUMMARY
This article discusses the limitations of the FAT32 file system in Windows XP.
MORE INFORMATION
Note the following limitations when you use the FAT32 file system with Windows XP:
•Clusters cannot be 64 kilobytes (KB) or larger. If clusters are 64 KB or larger, some programs (such as Setup programs) may incorrectly calculate disk space.
•A FAT32 volume must contain a minimum of 65,527 clusters. You cannot increase the cluster size on a volume that uses the FAT32 file system so that it contains fewer than 65,527 clusters.
•The maximum disk size is approximately 8 terabytes when you take into account the following variables: The maximum possible number of clusters on a FAT32 volume is 268,435,445, and there is a maximum of 32 KB per cluster, along with the space required for the file allocation table (FAT).
•You cannot decrease the cluster size on a FAT32 volume so that the size of the FAT is larger than 16 megabytes (MB) minus 64 KB.
•You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process. Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup. If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.

For additional information about how to use a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk to format a hard disk, click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
255867 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/255867/EN-US/) How to Use Fdisk and Format to Partition/Repartition a Hard Disk
NOTE: When you attempt to format a FAT32 partition that is larger than 32 GB during the Windows XP installation process, the format operation fails near the end of the process, and you may receive the following error message:
Logical Disk Manager: Volume size too big.
•MS-DOS, the original version of Microsoft Windows 95, and Microsoft Windows NT 4.0-and-earlier do not recognize FAT32 partitions, and are unable to start from a FAT32 volume.
•You cannot create a file larger than (2^32)-1 bytes (this is one byte less than 4 GB) on a FAT32 partition.
For additional information about the FAT32 file system, click the article number below to view the article in the Microsoft Knowledge Base:
310525 (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/310525/EN-US/) Description of the FAT32 File System in Windows XP
--
M

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Brian

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #17 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 1:46pm

Quote:

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 GB in size using the FAT32 file system in Windows 2000. The Windows 2000 FastFAT driver can mount and support volumes larger than 32 GB that use the FAT32 file system (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create one using the Format tool. This behavior is by design. If you need to create a volume larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system instead.

Quote:

You cannot format a volume larger than 32 gigabytes (GB) in size using the FAT32 file system during the Windows XP installation process. Windows XP can mount and support FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB (subject to the other limits), but you cannot create a FAT32 volume larger than 32 GB by using the Format tool during Setup. If you need to format a volume that is larger than 32 GB, use the NTFS file system to format it. Another option is to start from a Microsoft Windows 98 or Microsoft Windows Millennium Edition (Me) Startup disk and use the Format tool included on the disk.

I don’t use FAT32 but the above suggests the 32 GB limitation applies to WinXP installation. As you are restoring an image and resizing the partition, it should be OK.

The flashing cursor is a worry. I’ve only seen that with “cloning” after I’d deliberately deleted the MBR. But you should have had a MBR. Even when you clone into a partition, Windows appears to start. You see the WinXP logo and the horizontal scroll bar but it freezes on the next screen. You mentioned that the HD was seen in the BIOS.

OK. Let's do it again. Use PM from floppies or bootable CD to create a 50 GB (or your choice) FAT32 primary partition. Make the remainder a logical drive, NTFS. Now delete the 50 GB partition so you will have Unallocated Space.

Move (not copy) your data files across to the logical drive using Windows Explorer. Don't move the .pqi file. This will make the C: drive "used space" smaller and cloning should be faster.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=11175...

Follow these instructions and make sure you tick “resize drive to fill unallocated space”.

Make sure you have the latest BIOS before starting as that flashing cursor concerns me.

Any questions?

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Mackjazz

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #18 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 2:49pm

When I created the clone, NG 9 asked about adding the MBR and making the new disk bootable and I did confirm both options. Not sure why I could not get the MBR working but I wonder if it had to do with those 2 other partitions that one was made up of 7.6mb (could that have been the first sector ) or mbr)? The other unknown partition was exactly the same size as my D: Dise_backup partition. Anywho I just put back in my old disk and it came up fine. By the way yes the DISE ext. is a pqi image file.

Fujitsu doesn't have any bios info. My computer says mine is a PhoneixBios and the dates are 1998-2002. How do I know if I have the latest bios, etc?

Do I need to reformat and wipe everything out for a clean slate before I use Partition Magic to create the data clone partition or the data partition? do I assign drive letters? Can I clone a Fat32 disk or volume to a NTFS? I would be just as happy to have both final partitions NTFS.

You said to tick the unallocated space but the link you shared indicates as written by you to NOT tick this option?

Down the road will I be able to reallocate space amongst these two partitions? I would like the C: to be much smaller with only programs and the OS and the rest to be available for data storage.

Thx for your ideas and suggestions. I am learning so much.
Mack

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El_Pescador

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #19 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:01pm

Mackjazz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 12:44pm:

"... So what about the Fat32 issue limitation in cloning to the larger 80gb hd? I just with MS and it did say XP is limited to 32gb for FAT32..."

Theoretically, Windows XP FAT32 volumes larger than 32 GB have to emanate from other operating systems, but be advised that Seagate DiscWizard is a "loophole" utility running inside XP that can do the "over-32GB" trick with some -but not all - HDDs larger than the

illusory 137GB threshold

. Whereas DiscWizard assigns file system format by the volume of the partition selected, be advised that were any secondary partition to be selected - and any subsequent - are going to be in an extended partition as a set of logical drives no matter what you do or don't do. So, forego fighting any of this early on:

(1) After using Norton GDisk to perform a so-called "low-level format" (actually a "zero-fill" routine), use DiscWizard to assign the target HDD as

'Additional Storage'

and when underway proceed to slide the scale LEFT-to-RIGHT until the leading partition changes from GREEN-to-PURPLE (FAT32-to-NTFS) at about 36GB;

(2) then, gradually revert by sliding the scale RIGHT-to-LEFT where a PURPLE-to-GREEN transformation occurs with the default FAT32 file cluster size dropping from 32kb-to-16kb at which instant you mark

SET

;

(2) then, select the

NEXT>

radio button (you will find the remainder of this phase to be straightforwardly automated);

(4) then, upon exiting from DiscWizard, reboot your PC into SAFE MODE and reenter DiscWizard to select the

Maintenance

radio button to go to

'Maintenance Options'

, select

'Partitioning and Formatting Options'

where you in turn select

'Grow a Partition'

(this feature actually pumps up the physical drive to force the primary partition to occupy the remaining freespace albeit while retaining the 16kb cluster size - you will find the remainder of this phase to be likewise straightforwardly automated as DiscWizard will reboot without intervention on your part); and

(5) after the system reboots, you merely hit the

Finish

radio button, then in turn the

Exit

radio button - et voila^' - you now have a FAT32 HDD to the full extent of the physical HDD capacity which functions in just about any operating system extant.

EP

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Dan Goodell

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #20 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:02pm

"It did show the new 80gb hd as Disk 0 then it simply went to a black screen with a line cursor near the upper lefthand side of the screen."

All that discussion about Method #2, Method #3, and "fdisk /mbr" is premature here. Those apply if XP boots up with the wrong drive letters, but the above symptom means you're not even getting past the boot sector. You're not even getting far enough to get the "ntldr missing" msg. Either the partition table is corrupt, the partition is not set active, or the partition boot sector is corrupt. You'll need to reclone.

FWIW, DISE is PowerQuest's "Drive Image Special Edition". Back before the Symantec buyout, PowerQuest was cutting deals with some manufacturers to put oem restore images in a recovery partition on the hard disk. (This could have been booted by special code in the bios or by special code in a custom MBR, depending on how the manufacturer chose to do it.) IIRC, DISE was a crippled variation of Drive Image 2002, a DOS-based imager that competed head-to-head with Ghost 2003. The image file should have a .pqi extension. Brian says Ghost 9 might be able to read a pqi file, but if so I didn't know that. My recollection was that Ghost 9 would read a Drive Image 7 image, but not DI2002. At the time of the Symantec buyout, PowerQuest had been shipping DI7 with DI2002 tossed into the box for "legacy" systems. Symantec rebranded DI7 as "Ghost 9", dropped DI2002 from the box and substituted their own Ghost 2003 as the legacy option. So as EP mentioned, you probably have both v9 and v2003.

Earlier, EP mentioned Ghost 2003 should work with firewire. If so, you could go that route. You could use PM8 to repartition the new HDD, 30GB for system and rest for data. (If you're trying to save the DISE partition, add a small FAT32 at the end of the HDD for that.) It would help if you follow Brian's advice to begin moving some of your data over to the new HDD before imaging the system partition. Then boot from CD and use Ghost 2003 to image old system partition via firewire to a file on the new HDD's data partition. Shut down, remove old HDD, swap new HDD into laptop. Image is now on internal HDD, so boot from CD and restore system partition from image (on data partition) to first partition of the same HDD. Ghost 2003 has proven to be very reliable at setting up the boot configuration when you're restoring from image to internal HDD partition.

As for the FAT32 system partition, you can't change the file system while imaging/cloning. However, XP can subsequently convert FAT32 to NTFS if you want. (That's not a bad idea, since a 30GB FAT32 partition would be rather inefficient.)

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Brian

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #21 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:05pm

Mackjazz wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 2:49pm:

When I created the clone, NG 9 asked about adding the MBR and making the new disk bootable and I did confirm both options.

I'm sure you had a MBR.

Quote:

How do I know if I have the latest bios, etc?

Anything on the Fujitsu web site?

Quote:

Do I need to reformat and wipe everything out for a clean slate before I use Partition Magic to create the data clone partition or the data partition? do I assign drive letters?

Delete the partitions using PM immediately before you create new partitions.

Quote:

Can I clone a Fat32 disk or volume to a NTFS? I would be just as happy to have both final partitions NTFS.

No, you must clone to Unallocated Space. You WinXP will remain Fat32. You can convert it to NTFS later if you desire.

Quote:

You said to tick the unallocated space but the link you shared indicates as written by you to NOT tick this option?

That's just because I was testing.

Quote:

Down the road will I be able to reallocate space amongst these two partitions?

Yes.

Quote:

I would like the C: to be much smaller with only programs and the OS and the rest to be available for data storage.

If that's the case then make the primary partition on the new HD 32 GB and the remainder a logical drive, NTFS. Then delete the primary partition. You really don't have to create this primary partition at all. I've just described one way to obtain Unallocated Space.

Quote:

I am learning so much.

Same here.

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Brian

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #22 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:14pm

Dan Goodell wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:02pm:

The image file should have a .pqi extension. Brian says Ghost 9 might be able to read a pqi file,

I haven't tried it but

Quote:

Take advantage of the new Norton
Ghost 9.0 capabilities and backup
image file format (.v2i) and still be
able to access and restore backup
images created by earlier versions of
Drive Image (.pqi) and Norton Ghost
(.gho).

from page 9 of the userguide.

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Brian

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	Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u Reply #23 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:16pm Mack, don't assign any drive letters at all to the new HD when you partition.
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ben_mott

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #24 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 3:23pm

answer from NightOwl Ghost expert
my preferred method of Ghost backups is *whole disk* backups.
Ghost does backup the first *absolute sector 0* which has the MBR code (Master Boot Record) and the Partition Table--but the rest of the Master Boot area which is *absolute sector 1 thru 62* is not backed up in Ghost's default mode--unless you use the Ghost command line switch *-ib* (image boot) which will then backup the whole Master Boot region of sectors 0 thru 62!

So, if there is special code in the Master Boot region sectors 1 thru 62, then you should use that *-ib* switch--and now a restore of that image will restore that region too--and should preserve that *F10* function!
....................................................
this is the theory behind the F10 recovery (belowLink)do not do that as yours is already done for you
and what you are doing now is to make a ghost image of the whole of the drive that is partion with image on also xp partition and the boot sector with the F10 boot manager.
that image then theoretically can be coloned to similar machines.

http://www.911cd.net/forums//index.php?showtopic=14127&st=23

you need to use the real ghost.exe as instructed above to to recover the whole of boot sector .
to new 80gb drive.

regards Ben

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Mackjazz

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #25 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 4:32pm

thx EP, Brian, Ben and Dan (I have spent quite a bit of time reading the info on your web site and almost emailed you the other day when I found your email in your home page but I resisted as I thought it not appropriate to pry into your family time as a stranger).

Well I am currently back on Broadband and had to reset my office stuff. I am presently trying to see if there is a newer Bios for my sys. Fujitsu only has the orginal one for download. I went to Ph Bios and they are now referring me to another site.

I really just want to replace my old 40 with the new 80 but realize I should keep the old with important data on it in case of the 80 going down. The image vs copying (cloning) is abit confusing as to which is really necessary, most efficent, etc. I looked at my NS Premier 2005 and it does look like I have 2 NG, one is 2003 and the other says NGNT which must be what is installed on my laptop as NG 9.0

I am hoping to just copy (clone) the FAt32 29.7gb to an unallocated space and later convert it to NTFS. Also the balance of the new 80gb would hold the data which I am presently going to start to move now from the old C: so as to have more space.

I have heard preferences for NG 2003 (EP) and also some advantages of NG9 wich is currently installed on the laptop. I prefer to just use that one as I think the 2oo3 would have to be installed as opposed to being able to run it off the install cd. No?

Mack
PS Fujitsu just confimed they do not have a newer Bios for my machine.

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Brian

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	Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u Reply #26 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:09pm Mack, there are numerous ways to achieve a clone of your 40 GB to the 80 GB HD. Each of us has a favourite technique and they all work. My favourite is Ghost 9 but that's not to say it's "better" than the other techniques.
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El_Pescador

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #27 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:29pm

Brian wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:09pm:

"... there are numerous ways to achieve a clone of your 40 GB to the 80 GB HD. Each of us has a favourite technique and they all work. My favourite is Ghost 9 but that's not to say it's "better" than the other techniques..."

Although I do admit to be an old "cold-imaging mossyback" enamored of Norton Ghost 2003, in a serious crunch I will always choose Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 running from a Windows Preinstalled Environment CD. Thusfar, I have progressed to the Reatogo-X-PE Ver 240 of the BartPE CD, but installation CDs of either Norton Ghost 10 or Norton Save & Restore will still do the job when need be.

EP

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Brian

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	Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u Reply #28 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:39pm El_Pescador wrote on Oct 31^st, 2006 at 7:29pm: Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 running from a Windows Preinstalled Environment CD. I like that too and I've done some tests on Ghost 2003 and Acronis True Image which impressed me but I'll keep that information until later.
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Dan Goodell

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Re: Laptop Cloning headaches NG 9..ready to give u
Reply #29 - Oct 31^st, 2006 at 9:47pm

"The image vs copying (cloning) is abit confusing as to which is really necessary, most efficent, etc."

You mention you've been to my website, so I trust you understand the basic difference between an image and a clone. For a task such as yours (replacing a HDD), cloning would be faster and save a step, but is less predictable. If it works, then great, but at this point I think you'd agree it hasn't saved you any time, so I'd cut my losses and use imaging instead of cloning.

One reason cloning doesn't always work is that you're making Ghost guess how it's supposed to tweak the boot configuration because the target HDD isn't living in the spot it's eventually going to end up. Sometimes Ghost guesses right, sometimes it doesn't.

With imaging, you can create your image and then swap HDDs. When Ghost restores the image, the target is exactly where it's going to end up, so Ghost guesses pretty good in such cases.

"I have heard preferences for NG 2003 (EP) and also some advantages of NG9 wich is currently installed on the laptop. I prefer to just use that one as I think the 2oo3 would have to be installed as opposed to being able to run it off the install cd. No?"

Ghost 2003 doesn't need to be installed. I think the Ghost 2003 CD is bootable, but regardless, it's simple enough to boot to DOS (from floppy, CD or USB flash drive) and run ghost.exe directly from the CD.

I don't think the Ghost version is material here. I think it's a matter that you're stacking the odds against Ghost by trying to clone to a target that isn't even in the machine. If you insist on cloning, I wouldn't be surprised if v2003 has the same trouble cloning from internal source to external target. I think Ghost 9 will work okay if you use interim imaging instead of direct cloning.

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