Welcome, Guest. Please
Login
Home
Help
Search
Login
FAQ
Radified
Ghost.Classic
Ghost.New
Bootable CD
Blog
Radified Community Forums
›
Rad Community Technical Discussion Boards (Computer Hardware + PC Software)
›
Norton Ghost 15, 14, 12, 10, 9, + Norton Save + Restore (NS+R)
› "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
(Moderators: Rad, Christer, NightOwl, Pleonasm, MrMagoo, El_Pescador)
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
Pages:
1
2
3
"Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging" (Read 63256 times)
Pleonasm
Übermensch
Offline
Posts: 1619
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #30 -
Apr 10
th
, 2007 at 12:39pm
Just to illustrate the point that a .GHO image has the potential to be created in a corrupt state . . .
Quote:
I am trying to create an image of a 12GB Dell 2950 server partition using a Ghost 2003 boot disk. Every image I create shows as corrupt. I am able to create images of other servers that are fine.
Source:
Every Image Created is Corrupt
ple • o • nasm
n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
IP Logged
nbree
Ex Member
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #31 -
Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 4:04am
El_Pescador wrote
on Apr 10
th
, 2007 at 10:26am:
Then the question becomes: Is easier for a
"ham-handed"
user to precipitate improperly managed transactional file system activity when using either
"hot-imaging"
or
"cold-imaging"
Ghost products, or is it instead a
"wash"
?
The thing is, that the only kind of program which could cause any trouble of any kind would be one that, for instance, when saving a file erases the original before writing a new one. Now, programs that do this are vulnerable to all kinds of problems - if they fail internally, they lose data, if the power goes off, they lose data, etc. - and the total extent of the problem they would cause for a snapshot is exactly the same as in those other cases, which is that one file might end up truncated in that one snapshot.
Now, as it happens there is even a way to deal with almost all these situations; the kinds of programs that do this kind of thing are almost universally single-threaded, which is how Windows stops them causing exactly these problems when, say, suspending a notebook. Because such programs almost always do these operations synchronously, if a backup program were to simply ensure that the currently running programs are dispatching window messages it's pretty much covered.
In fact, this is doable using just one call:
BroadcastSystemMessage
with the BSF_FLUSHDISK option.
So sure, it's
possible
to screw things up, but only if you have a program that does long-running, high-risk data-destroying operations on files while still processing window messages. There really aren't a lot of those around though, and people tend not to use such programs on data they value highly.
IP Logged
NightOwl
Radministrator
Offline
"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."
Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #32 -
Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 9:36am
Pleomasm and Rad
*Hot-imaging*
*Cold-imaging* reliability--here we go again!
Pleonasm wrote
on Apr 4
th
, 2007 at 7:10am:
Nbree, continuing the conversation from Reply #11, there has been considerable debate among forum members on whether or not "hot imaging" (e.g., Norton Ghost 10) is as reliable as "cold-imaging" (e.g., Norton Ghost 2003). Your comments imply (and appear to confirm my own perspective) that both are equally reliable for Windows XP - and presumably for Windows Vista, too. Of course, each image backup approach has some benefits and features that the other lacks - but specifically with respect to reliability,
is there any reason to believe that one approach is any more or less reliable than the other?
Rad wrote
on Apr 8
th
, 2007 at 6:08pm:
if your boot/system drive died .. and if your storage drive contained two back-up images .. one with the file extention *.gho (created by Ghost 2003) and another ending with *.v2i (or whatever file extention Ghost 9/10 produces) ..
which would you consider
more reliable
? .. if you had to bet the farm on the restore working??
I thought we *agreed* a long time ago that if the software (DOS Ghost 2003 vs Ghost 9/10/Save & Restore) was compatible with one's other software and hardware and did not cause usage errors, then both hot and cold imaging seemed to be equally *reliable*--yes they are different approaches with different functionality--so one person may prefer one approach over the other--but there does not appear to be major *reliability* issues!
I think most of *us* who worry about *hot imaging* are folks who go back some years and used programs in Win 3.x, Win95, Win98, etc. ... years where the promise of being able to multi-task in the Windows environment frequently ended up with a crashed or frozen system--both Windows and the hardware (CPU capacity) were not up to the task of *multi-tasking*!
DOS Ghost 2003 (and it's other DOS cousins) and Ghost 9/10/Save & Restore work for most of the users, most of the time as long as there is not software or hardware conflicts!
Looking over the majority of posts about problems with Ghost in our forum--I would guess that a majority of *reliability* issues is *wetware user error* in not knowing how to use the software correctly (read that--did you read the User Guide?!), or not understanding the terminology of the User Guide (if it was read!)--and not understanding the issues involved in imaging, cloning, and restoring to one's HDD under various scenarios!
So, here you are pestering this poor software developer who has his own corporate work issues to deal with in an attempt to *bolster* your respective biases and have him *take sides*--
Both of you--go to your corners--you need a *time out*, and some *quiet time* to think about this
!
nbree
Ever the diplomatic answer!:
Quote:
Given that I have the ability and access to fix any problem that could arise in Ghost it's not a question that I can answer in the abstract; I use Ghost (edit by NightOwl--
he means DOS Ghost
), not just because I can but because it's right and proper for us to eat our own dogfood. Indeed, last time I did a boot drive migration at home (earlier last year) it was with the pre-GSS2 development code and helped find a bug.
The same is undoubtedly true of the PQ guys (edit by NightOwl--
he means Ghost 9/10/Save & Restore
), and I have no doubt that they work every bit as diligently as we do. PQ was justly famous for Partition Magic, and deserved the reputation that brought them. Even as competitors we held their engineering skills in high regard; we and they took and still take different approaches to product design, which is a completely different matter entirely. I happen to feel similarly about most competing products, such as Acronis;
I wouldn't criticise the engineering ability of their staff either.
There's room in the world for all these, and no shortage of reasons to prefer one or another that aren't about technology.
Really, most technological arguments about products are emphasising the wrong things: qualitative factors such as "flexibility" and "attractiveness" are harder to evaluate but end up mattering more where it matters most, in how users
feel
about their experience with a product. We're emotional beings, after all - which ties us back to your question about how I felt about being a developer.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are
!
IP Logged
Pleonasm
Übermensch
Offline
Posts: 1619
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #33 -
Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 12:35pm
Thank you, NightOwl, for interjecting a dose of sanity into the discussion.
I think you summarized the situation quite well, from my viewpoint: there really is no rational reason to prefer a “cold imaging” backup solution over one using “hot imaging,” as evaluated in terms of reliability, provided the user has verified in her or his own environment that the selected tool works as expected.
As Nbree stated in Reply #25, we are
emotional
beings when choosing one backup solution versus another and have “no shortage of reasons to prefer one or another that
aren't about technology
.”
By the way, for those individuals who may want to learn more about the central role that emotion has in consumer decision making, I recommend the book
Body of Truth: Leveraging What Consumers Can't or Won't Say
by Dan Hill.
ple • o • nasm
n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
IP Logged
nbree
Ex Member
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #34 -
Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 8:24pm
Quote:
By the way, for those individuals who may want to learn more about the central role that emotion has in consumer decision making, I recommend the book
Body of Truth: Leveraging What Consumers Can't or Won't Say
by Dan Hill.
Sounds interesting.
By the way, I wouldn't say that it's irrational to be distrusting of a complex technology like volume snapshotting, particularly when it's a) new, at least to most people and b) underdocumented and hard to understand internally. These are normal reactions to having insufficient information, which is exactly the point where our cognitive machinery needs to turn to our emotions in decision-making.
Part of the problem with the v2i tools is that they were presented as "magic - trust us" (Microsoft haven't done themselves any favours either in regard of VSS, which has some impressively opaque documentation). If, when snapshotting was new, the theory of operation was better explained then it would have been much easier for everyone to become comfortable with it. Giving customers more choice during the transition to using it instead of simply dictating to everyone that the new way was the only way would have helped as well.
IP Logged
Rama
Technoluster
Offline
You don't appreciate Backup
until you get burned.
Posts: 156
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #35 -
Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 11:42pm
NightOwl wrote
on Apr 11
th
, 2007 at 9:36am:
Pleomasm and Rad
*Hot-imaging*
*Cold-imaging* reliability--here we go again!
Looking over the majority of posts about problems with Ghost in our forum--I would guess that a majority of *reliability* issues is *wetware user error* in not knowing how to use the software correctly (read that--did you read the User Guide?!), or not understanding the terminology of the User Guide (if it was read!)--and not understanding the issues involved in imaging, cloning, and restoring to one's HDD under various scenarios!
Most users do not read any of the user guides. I recall an instance of a person who is new to computers spent $3000 and had problems with using it. Called the toll free tech support, and was asked if she read the user manual. She shot back saying that she has spent almost $3000 and after spending all that money should she also read the user guide? We want software much like the video games. Just load and try!
Rama
IP Logged
Pleonasm
Übermensch
Offline
Posts: 1619
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #36 -
Apr 12
th
, 2007 at 9:44am
Nbree, I completely agree: it is a quite natural human reaction to be initially distrusting of (and have an emotional reaction toward) new technology. By “not rational” (Reply #33), I simply meant that there is no fact-based or empirical foundation to logically justify the emotion. That does not make the emotion less “real” or “valid,” of course.
Rama, your point is well taken: too few people take the time to read the User’s Manual! When I respond to a technical problem in these forums, I often try to provide a page reference to the manual and point the person to that source rather than answer the question directly. My motivation is try to encourage more people to read the documentation.
Rad, you are oddly silent here.
Do you also agree with NightOwl’s reasonable and thoughtful summary (Reply #32):
Quote:
I thought we *agreed* a long time ago that if the software (DOS Ghost 2003 vs Ghost 9/10/Save & Restore) was compatible with one's other software and hardware and did not cause usage errors, then both hot and cold imaging seemed to be equally *reliable* -- yes they are different approaches with different functionality -- so one person may prefer one approach over the other -- but there does not appear to be major *reliability* issues!
Peace.
ple • o • nasm
n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
IP Logged
NightOwl
Radministrator
Offline
"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."
Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #37 -
Apr 12
th
, 2007 at 10:10am
Pleonasm
Pleonasm wrote
on Apr 4
th
, 2007 at 7:10am:
Nbree, continuing the conversation from Reply #11, there has been considerable debate among forum members on whether or not "hot imaging" (e.g., Norton Ghost 10) is as reliable as "cold-imaging" (e.g., Norton Ghost 2003). Your comments imply (and appear to confirm my own perspective) that both are equally reliable for Windows XP - and
presumably for Windows Vista, too.
I believe Ghost 9/10 has been identified as not working under the Vista OS (true?)--so I would have to say those are not *equally reliable* for Vista!
DOS Ghost, by using the *preserve disk signature* switch, i.e. *-fdsp*, based on what I've read (I have no personal experience as yet), allow DOS Ghost to be compatible with Vista however.
Vista and Symantec Ghost 8.x
Quote:
If I perform a DISK backup and then perform a DISK restore AND use the -FDSP switch, I can bring back my Vista 5270 image successfully.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are
!
IP Logged
Pleonasm
Übermensch
Offline
Posts: 1619
Back to top
Re: "Hot-imaging" versus "Cold-imaging"
Reply #38 -
Apr 12
th
, 2007 at 10:39am
Yes, NightOwl: you are correct. Norton Ghost 12 is reported to be compatible with Windows Vista, while Norton Ghost 10 is not. I should have worded my statement in Reply #20 more carefully.
ple • o • nasm
n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
IP Logged
Pages:
1
2
3
‹
Previous Topic
|
Next Topic
›
« Home
‹ Board
Top of this page
Forum Jump »
Home
» 10 most recent Posts
» 10 most recent Topics
Rad Community Technical Discussion Boards (Computer Hardware + PC Software)
- Norton Ghost 15, 14, 12, 10, 9, + Norton Save + Restore (NS+R) ««
- Norton Ghost 2003, Ghost v8.x + Ghost Solution Suite (GSS) Discussion Board
- Cloning Programs (Except Norton Ghost)
- NightOwl's Bootable CD/DVD
- PC Hardware + Software (except Cloning programs)
Rad Community Non-Technical Discussion Boards
- The Water Cooler
- YaBB Forum Software + Rad Web Site
Radified Community Forums
» Powered by
YaBB 2.4
!
YaBB
© 2000-2009. All Rights Reserved.