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Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma (Read 11089 times)
frazzled
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Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Jun 21st, 2007 at 9:10am
 
I apologize in advance for my ignorance. I've read a buch of stuff re Dell issues (goofy partitions, etc.) and my calcified brain gets more confused the more I read.

I have a new Dell E320 with Win Vista Home Premium in my garage which I bought antiicipating pressure from our Xbox 360 crazed son (and his mother). Unfortunately, I failed to get the restoration CD if they still offer them.

The pressure has arrived and is intesifying. I must open the box. ARGGHHH.

As I understand it, Dells have a restoration partition preinstalled on the hard drive.   My gut tells me this is shaky since a hard drive failure would leave you high and dry. I can't shake a quesy feeling that some type of disaster is going to happen as he breaks in this new machine, and I want to have a reliable disaster recovery option.

I think the most sure fire thing at first would be to take the drive out of the Dell and make an identical copy on a virgin SATA drive before it is ever booted. I suppose I am talking about "cloning" the Dell drive as it is shipped. Something I read once makes me think that may not be possible the way the Dell drives are set up and partitioned, and I don't want to trash the original out of ignorance trying to be safe. 

What I envision is something like:

1. Remove the drive from the Dell wothout ever starting it, and place it in an external USB drive enclosure.

2. Hook that external drive and another external drive with a virgin hard drive up to an XP SP2 PC with Net Framwork 2 installed.

3. Using Ghost (or something else?) do the Local -> Disk -> To Disk  from one external to the other, assuming I can do such a thing.

Is this feasible? Am I heading in the wrong direction? Any suggested alternatives to assuage my paranoia?

I now have a pretty full arsenal of Ghosts: 9, 10, 2003 and 12 as well as Save & Restore 1 and 2.

Any thoughts appreciated.....
 
 
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acosby
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #1 - Jun 21st, 2007 at 4:35pm
 
Quote:
I think the most sure fire thing at first would be to take the drive out of the Dell and make an identical copy on a virgin SATA drive before it is ever booted. I suppose I am talking about "cloning" the Dell drive as it is shipped. Something I read once makes me think that may not be possible the way the Dell drives are set up and partitioned, and I don't want to trash the original out of ignorance trying to be safe.

If I understand you, this is a brand new PC--unbooted.  What good would ghosting it at this point be?  The only files that should be installed are those that would recover with a wipe and reinstall.
---
In my limited experience with Ghost (to answer questions 1-3), the computer you are copying must have ghost installed on it.  I.E. You'd have to boot and install ghost on the new machine.
Other than that, yes, ghost will backup your information, but I'd be prone to boot it, put all your files and info on it, and then back it up.
Also, it's not paranoia, it's reasonable.  You might even look into doing online backups--Ghost4Me talks a lot about them, and is more likely to have more info on that than I do.
 

Mr. Server, I'd like you to meet Mr. Hammer.  I feel you'll enjoy each others' company.  At least I will.
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Brian
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #2 - Jun 21st, 2007 at 5:16pm
 
frazzled,

Quote:
Dell issues (goofy partitions


Dells are easy. At least the WinXP ones are. I haven't seen any with Vista installed.

You should have 3 partitions. A Dell Diagnostic partition of around 50 MB. Your OS partition and a Dell Restore partition. You can ignore the latter partition after you have made your backups. I have the same approach as you are suggesting. Creating image backups from shortly after the OS is first run and backups after a "significant" number of apps have been installed. You will need to install Ghost 12 or NSR2 as you have Vista. Create recovery points for the first two partitions, writing the images to another HD. You don't need to backup the first partition again. It doesn't change.

So when your son trashes the OS, you can simply restore to a good recovery point.

Have a look at this backup approach. Separating Data from the OS.

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/notes.htm#13
 
 
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El_Pescador
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #3 - Jun 21st, 2007 at 6:28pm
 
frazzled wrote on Jun 21st, 2007 at 9:10am:
"... Any thoughts appreciated..."

Without ever booting from the MASTER HDD of the Dell OptiPlex E320 desktop PC, I would advocate creating either a "(whole)disk-to-image" legacy Norton Ghost Backup or a "(whole)disk-to-(whole)disk" legacy Norton Ghost Clone employing the "cold-imaging" Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 inside the Windows XP Preinstallation Environment on a relevant Norton/Symantec installation CD.  To do so, stage an internal 3.5-inch HDD mounted in a quality external enclosure next to the unsullied PC with all power turned off.  Then, use a straightened paperclip to manually insert an installation CD containing restoreghost.exe into the optical bay.  On the fair assumption that a CD-ROM precedes the MASTER HDD in the boot sequence by default, powering up all devices will result in a bootup into the WIN PE OS on the CD whereupon you should immediately engage the legacy Backup/Restore/Clone "cold-imaging" procedure by following the path
'Recover > Recover Data on My Computer > Recover using a legacy Ghost image'
and either create a "disk-to-image" legacy Backup image or a "disk-to-disk" legacy Clone to reside on the external HDD.  In the event you do choose to create a Backup image, be sure to perform an Integrity Check before logging off the session.

Be advised that all partitions, hidden and otherwise, will be captured.

EP
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #4 - Jun 21st, 2007 at 8:07pm
 
EP,

I've read that images of Vista created by Ghost 8.2 may not restore properly. I think Vista needs to be imaged by Ghost 11. Do you have any information on Vista imaging with Ghost 8.2?
 
 
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El_Pescador
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2007 at 12:25pm
 
Brian wrote on Jun 21st, 2007 at 8:07pm:
"... I've read that images of Vista created by Ghost 8.2 may not restore properly..."

"Wal, sum sez that she doo,
 en sum sez that she dont;
 So whut I wanna know is dooshee!"


I have read it both ways, so the "acid-test" would be to follow my recommendation to make a Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 Clone on the external HDD and swap it for the MASTER HDD.  I see no risk in doing so, and if it indeed does bomb then look for an alternate path.

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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 10:20am
 
frazzled

Quote:
I now have a pretty full arsenal of Ghosts: 9, 10, 2003 and 12 as well as Save & Restore 1 and 2.

That is an impressive *arsenal*--all possible options that are available are at your command!

Quote:
What I envision is something like:

1. Remove the drive from the Dell wothout ever starting it, and place it in an external USB drive enclosure.

2. Hook that external drive and another external drive with a virgin hard drive up to an XP SP2 PC with Net Framwork 2 installed.

3. Using Ghost (or something else?) do the Local -> Disk -> To Disk  from one external to the other, assuming I can do such a thing.

Now is the time to *experiment* to see what works--and see where there are any problems that need to be worked around!  If you have the extra external enclosures and extra *virgin HDD*--see what works!  

Just be careful not to do any Ghost procedure that writes to the *original* HDD!  

And, it's best, if cloning, not to hook up the new *virgin* HDD and then booting to WinXP before doing the cloning--drive letters will be assigned and *remembered* by WinXP.  After cloning--remove/disconnect the cloned HDD before re-booting to WinXP.

Now, place the *cloned* HDD in the system and see if all goes well (keep your original disconnected for *safe keeping*).  You need to test entering the Dell Utility Partition, and to see if you can engage the Restore Partition before you know that your cloning has been successful.  If using the Restore option changes the cloned system test HDD to something other than what you want--then re-clone it to the *virgin* state before proceeding!

Quote:
wothout ever starting it

You will always be *starting over* at the very beginning if you restore that image and you have *never* started the PC--usually there are a number of initial steps you have to do when you first boot to *make the PC yours* such as entering User name, etc.--that's okay as long as that's where you want to be!  But, you will always have to re-do those initial steps when you do boot the first time!



Brian

Quote:
I've read that images of Vista created by Ghost 8.2 may not restore properly. I think Vista needs to be imaged by Ghost 11. Do you have any information on Vista imaging with Ghost 8.2?

I think this thread has options to allow the DOS based Ghost to work with Vista:  

Ghost 2003/Ghost 8.2 and Windows Vista

Vista and Symantec Ghost 8.x



frazzled

You might want to find out more about the Dell HDD setup by reading these references:

Dan Goodell's *Inside the Dell PC Restore Partition*

Dan Goodell's *Inside the Dell Utility Partition*



El_Pescador

Quote:
I would advocate creating either a "(whole)disk-to-image" legacy Norton Ghost Backup or a "(whole)disk-to-(whole)disk" legacy Norton Ghost Clone employing the "cold-imaging" Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 inside the Windows XP Preinstallation Environment on a relevant Norton/Symantec installation CD.

I've not worked with Dell's and their *Recovery Partition* or *Utility Partition*--so I'm not sure what is required to keep those in *virgin, pristine* functional condition when *cloning*--but I think I would use the option *Image Boot* in creating a *whole disk* image, or HDD to HDD clone--to make sure if there is data in the boot tract that those Dell partitions use--then that data will be included in the image or clone--note that it says to use this option *...when installed applications such as boot-time utilities use the boot track to store information.*--I don't know if the Dell systems store data in the *boot track* to make their partitions functional--if frazzled was deep into experimenting, we could find out lots of information about Vista, Ghost32 v8.2, and Dell's Utility and Restore partitions:

...
 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink !
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #7 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 5:59am
 
First off NightOwl, check the ed of my post for sure.

Thanks everyone for all the astute observations and suggestions. I'm still a bit uncertain and paranoid. I was called out Middleofnowhere MO to deal with a broken water main running to an unoccupied moble home and haven't had a realistic chance to respond, but I don't think that is of consequence. Just wanted to let you all know I wasn't bothering to glean your responses.

First of all, For whatever reason I have never been able to create a boot disk that worked on one of my existing Dells. They always terminated with a black screen and a cursor. But today I downloaded an image of the UBCD bot disc, and it seems to work perfectly. I believe I can integrate Ghost 8.xxx probably from  my Ghost 10 CD into that. Assuming I can do that, I think I may have an approach that comports with my objectives and the advice you have given.

My objectives:
Clone a hard drive identical to the unstarted Dell drive, such that in worst case I can use it to set up the PC again as if it was brand new. Then use the clone to set up the PC. The original unstarted Dell drive goes on the shelf, hopefully never to be used.

Assuming the PC sets up OK with the clone, Ghost an image of the clean install, then periodically Ghost the entire syatem via USB hard drive.

Set up a different external drive, maybe an NAS, to back up user files on a regular basis.

As far as "virgin" SATA drives, I have two but one has technically been deflowered. Its a 160gb  in another PC and only has a tiny amount of inconsequential stuff on it. The other is a 400gb external Western Digital, never started. I called WD tech to confirm it was a SATA inside before voiding my warranty. He said it was, but opined that he thought a better idea would be to get an new SATA drive, hook it up inside the new Dell, then Ghost one to the other. Thinking about this, it seemed to make sense IF the new PC indeed boots from the UBCD and Ghost 8.xxx is operational.

So here is what I'm thinking at this point.

1. Unpack the new PC. Open it up, and disconnect the hard drive entirely. Plug it in, turn it on, and invoke the bios to make sure its set up to boot first from CD/optical. If it is insert, the UBCD w/Ghost and turn the PC off, then restart to see if it boots OK and Ghost appears to be operational. If so, power it off. (This is a true paranoia based step)

2. Hook up the Dell dard drive as it was and the cleaned up 160gb SATA on another SATA port. Press the on button and pray.

3. If the UBCD  indeed boots the PC, and Ghost starts up,   and assuming it gives me the option of selecting which drive to clone to the other, sally forth with NightOwl's recommended settings.

4. If that seems to go ok, shut down and disconnectthe original Dell drive, and plug the cloned drive into the SATA port previoulsy used by the Dell drive. Then start her up, and if everything seems to go routinely go thru the setup sequence.

5. If all that works, install Ghost 12  and Ghost to to an external dive. I don't think it matters whether the external is PATA or SATA. Periodically Reimage to the external.

6. Set up a different system for more frequent backups of user files, data files whatever.

Major question: Should (almost said "will" Smiley)  the drive created  in stap 3 do what is described in step 4 ? The nomenclature of the 8.xxx settings sort of go over my head but 8.xxx seems to be the go to guy for folks that know.

NightOwl, I would love contribute something consequential to this forum. For a variety of reasons I do have a fair assortment of drives, platforms and software at the moment, but I don't have a wealth of experience or knowledge about Ghost and the nuances among its various flavors. While my immediate focus is getting this new Vista box secured and operational, if there is something I can do with my toys that  would be of use to you or anyone else in enhancing the body of knowledge in this forum I'd be glad to help as time and workbench space permits. I don't have any great insights as to what that might be, but if you or others have suggestions let me know.

Now on to figuring out how to patch Gh8 into my UBCD boot disk....





 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #8 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 3:49pm
 
frazzled,

A link to sort out terminology although I think we are on the same wavelength.

What is the difference between an "image" and a "clone"?

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/notes.htm#14



Another link on using clones as a backup tool.

Reply #7

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=11329...

 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #9 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 4:23pm
 
" Now on to figuring out how to patch Gh8 into my UBCD boot disk.... "

Seemed easy enough. I hate to be defeatist, but I believe I am defeated. I've spent nearly the whole day attempting to do the above.

First and foremost ghost32.exe, which might work using BartPE as it includes a plugin for that purpose, eludes me. I searched both my installed Sysworks 2005 Premier and the installation CD-not to be found. On another PC, searched the Gh2003 installation, and the Gh2003 CD packed with Gh10-not to be found.

As best I can tell, the original UBCD boot disk does not work with Ghost period. But at least it boots my PC, which no other boot cd I have ever attempted managed to do. Maybe with the UBCD4WIN variant? Could be, but I didn't go there. BartPE spposedly supports ghost32.exe but without the files so what. For grins, I tried creating a no frills BartPE disc, everything seemed to go smoothly, and when I tried booting up an Acer PC with it nothing happened except "cannot find NTLDR". The finished disc itself was bizarre - 0 space available, no files whatsoever. If I had the requisite Ghost files I might try that again from scratch.

So I think I'm at the end of my rope, and its probably time to move on. But it defies me why it is so difficult to make an identical copy of a hard drive.

Sorry for the rant. Its one thing to spend a lot of time and accomplish something at the end of the day. When you accomplish nothing, its very frustrating.
 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #10 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 7:28pm
 
frazzled wrote on Jun 28th, 2007 at 4:23pm:
The finished disc itself was bizarre - 0 space available, no files whatsoever.

Do you mean no files on the BartPE CD when the disc was viewed in Windows?
 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #11 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 8:24pm
 
When I bring up the drive in Explorer, the disk map is blue (used), and it reads used space=0 free space =0 and has no name. I've had a few discs go belly up in my time but I don't think I've ever seen this. No files or anything else show. Visual examination of the cd clearly indicate it has been burned. When it was going, it seemed normal and the script ended with "burn completed" or something like that, and took what seemed a typical amount of time. Just another kick in the groin for what has been a bad day.
 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #12 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 8:47pm
 
frazzled,

Something went wrong. My BartPE CD has files and folders visible from Windows.

Are you creating the CD from a WinXP SP2 computer and WinXP SP2 CD?
 
 
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Re: Dell / Vista Backup Dilemma
Reply #13 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 10:40pm
 
frazzled wrote on Jun 28th, 2007 at 4:23pm:
"... First and foremost ghost32.exe, which might work using BartPE as it includes a plugin for that purpose, eludes me..."

Should you be able to get your hands on either Norton Ghost 10.0, Norton Save & Restore, or the Symantec Recovery Disk included with Norton SystemWorks 2006 Premier you can boot up with the factory CD to immediately engage the legacy Backup/Restore "cold-imaging" procedures by following the path
'Recover > Recover Data on My Computer > Recover using a legacy Ghost image'
.  Following this procedure will yield the side benefit of bypassing both USB mass-storage device and - most, if not all of - those maddening SATA HDD glitches frequently encountered with DOS-dependent Norton Ghost 2003.  This procedure is independent of those boot capabilities of any other removable media or any HDD.

What you really are looking for is restoreghost.exe (an
alternate
name for ghost32.exe) which will allow you to both create Ghost Backup images or conversely Recover such images that are in fact totally compatible and interchangeable with those *.gho/*.ghs files created with the
ghost.exe
of Norton Ghost 2003 -
but not with those files created with Norton Ghost 9, Norton Ghost 10.0, or Norton Save & Restore during "hot-imaging".


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