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Vista and Ghost 12 (Read 24295 times)
Brian
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Vista and Ghost 12
Aug 8th, 2007 at 6:39pm
 
Has anyone tried a C: drive image restore? Is the partition offset still 2048 sectors?

This quote is from the Acronis TI forum and refers to Vista not booting after a TI C: drive restore.

Quote:
it occurs because your Vista installation as delivered started at an offset of 2048 sectors, and when you restored your image file, TrueImage relocated the start of the partition to an offset of 63 sectors. The 63 sector offset has been the standard for many years and now Vista is doing things differently. Now that you have restored the Vista partition with TrueImage and have done a repair, you can restore as often as you like and you should never see the "winload.exe is missing..." error message again.
 
 
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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #1 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 6:58pm
 
Brian, I've restored some files and a few folders using Ghost 12 and Vista, both with Ghost Explorer and booting from the Ghost 12 Recovery CD.  I haven't restored a backup image to a new blank hard drive yet.

FYI, look at this previous post of mine regarding the offset and changes in disk layout now.  There is a reference to a long (but interesting) TI thread on this there as well. (reply #7)

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1178123382/7#7

Partal quote from the Microsoft KB reference:

Quote:
Storage stack, partition, and file system alignment

The file system, the volume manager, and other parts of the storage stack in Windows Vista have been updated to accommodate hard disk drives that have a large sector size. In earlier versions of Windows, the default starting offset for the first partition on a hard disk drive was sector 0x3F. Because this starting offset was an odd number, it could cause performance issues on large-sector drives because of misalignment between the partition and the physical sectors. In Windows Vista, the default starting offset will generally be sector 0x800. However, the starting offset might be different for drives that have special alignments. For emulation drives that have special alignments, dynamic disk operations will not be supported in the initial release version of Windows Vista. This support will be added in a future service pack.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Brian
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #2 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 7:31pm
 
Thanks John. It is that same TI thread that I quoted. However I must be reading it backwards as I've just noticed a statement from Mustang.

Quote:
Just as a point of interest, I can tell you that both Norton Ghost 12 and Symantec Backup Exec 7 Desktop Edition are able to handle the Vista 2048 sector partition offset. No repair is needed and the 2048 sector offset is maintained after the restore.

Nice to know that a repair will not be needed after a C: drive restore.
 
 
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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #3 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 7:49pm
 
Brian wrote on Aug 8th, 2007 at 7:31pm:
Nice to know that a repair will not be needed after a C: drive restore.

The new offset and that thread point up the issue that is of concern:  Which versions of Ghost (and other vendors) are certified for (1) the new large drives and (2) Vista.

These are the products I am aware of that claim to be certified (I'm sure I missed some):

1. Norton Save & Restore 2.0
2. Ghost 12
3. Ghost Solution Suite 2.0
4. Acronis True Image 10
5. Paragon Drive Image 8.5

My impression is that it is more of a new-offset compatibility and new sector size compatibility than a Vista compatibility that makes older versions of Ghost (and other products) questionable now.

Personally I wouldn't use a 4 or 5 year old product (any vendor) on a brand new technology hard drive or new operating system.  (It's kind of like insisting that your 7 year old pc's bios will work with a 1TB disk drive.)
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Brian
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #4 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 8:09pm
 
John, I don't think Acronis TI 10 can handle the partition offset. Should it be in your list?
 
 
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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #5 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 8:23pm
 
Brian wrote on Aug 8th, 2007 at 8:09pm:
John, I don't think Acronis TI 10 can handle the partition offset. Should it be in your list?


I think you're right.  TI 10 "claims" to be compatible, but has bugs.  Found this thread which I'm sure you're read.   Smiley  (interesting analysis by MudCrab, reply #4)

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=171579

I guess I should get a spare SATA drive and try TI 10 and Ghost 12 myself.  Some of the problems seem to hinge on whether you are restoring a complete-disk-backup or restoring just one partition.  Any opinions on that?

Also nice reading here:

Vista’s New Partitioning Rules.
http://www.multibooters.co.uk/partitions.html
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Brian
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #6 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 9:48pm
 
Looks like we read the same posts. I have some knowledge of Vista but no experience using Vista.

Quote:
Some of the problems seem to hinge on whether you are restoring a complete-disk-backup or restoring just one partition. 

From my reading I gather Acronis TI handles restoring a complete-disk-backup without problems if the partition offset is 2048. 

The 2048 sector offset only occurs if you partition with Vista. If you partition with PM etc and then install Vista the offset is the usual 63 sectors and there are no problems restoring images with Acronis TI and presumably other apps.
 
 
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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #7 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 10:25pm
 
Look at reply #11, which has some interesting tests:
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=171579#11

Quote:
OK, as long as the full drive was imaged, it restored properly and booted.


I believe (but haven't confirmed myself) that the most reliable way to accomplish a restore from a backup image to a disk drive that had been previously used for something else, was to wipe the disk first.  Then use Ghost or TI to restore your image.  

If you had a previously used pre-Vista hard drive (old offset), then you would likely have a problem after restoring your Vista backup.  Then it would need a BCD repair.  

If you have Vista on a new hard drive (new offset), and you're restoring your vista boot partiton to resolve a virus or other software corruption issue, everything should work without any BCD repair being needed.

I haven't tried any of theses scenarios myself, so I'm just summarizing what I have read--I don't claim at all to be certain.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Brian
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #8 - Aug 8th, 2007 at 10:37pm
 
Brian wrote on Aug 8th, 2007 at 9:48pm:
and there are no problems restoring images with Acronis TI and presumably other apps.

This may not be accurate. You probably need one repair cycle first.
 
 
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #9 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 12:11am
 
Looks like I was correct the first time. I asked the question in the TI group.

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=173214&page=4#77
 
 
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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #10 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 3:27am
 
Brian wrote on Aug 9th, 2007 at 12:11am:
Looks like I was correct the first time. I asked the question in the TI group.
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?t=173214&page=4#77


Thanks.  That is a good summary by Mudcrab on how TI works.  I'm not sure that is the way TI is *supposed* to work however.

"If you create the partition with Vista, then you will have to run Vista repair after the restore..."  I have a new Dell pc with Vista pre-installed.  If I restore with TI from a TI 10 backup, the claim is that I will have to run a repair (at least with TI 10).

If I restore a Ghost 12 backup with Ghost 12, will I have to run a repair?  I doubt it (hope not).  

I interpret his comments that TI incorrectly moves the partition on a restore.  What do you think?
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #11 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 4:18am
 
Post #79 (the one after MudCrab) expresses your concerns.

Quote:
I am still of the opinion that TI10 is not in the true sense of the word "Vista Compatible". For those of us who are technical this is not a big problem, but the vast majority of Acronis customers are non-technical and rightly expect the software to work as advertised.
 
 
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #12 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 10:09am
 
Brian and Ghost4me

Very interesting discussion--we've had similar ones about Ghost when talking about restoring an image or recovery point--and whether the Master Boot Record (MBR) is restored or not--and if the entire HDD boot region is restored--or just the absolute sector 0 is restored.

This is actually a question about *partitioning* and how an imaging program handles a restore--it depends on if the destination HDD is blank (or had it's boot region wiped) or is pre-partitioned before the restore operation.  My experience with Ghost 2003 has been that if a HDD already has been partitioned, then Ghost will not change the existing MBR.  It appears the TI 10 probably behaves similarly:

Quote:
From my reading I gather Acronis TI handles restoring a complete-disk-backup without problems if the partition offset is 2048.  

The 2048 sector offset only occurs if you partition with Vista. If you partition with PM etc and then install Vista the offset is the usual 63 sectors and there are no problems restoring images with Acronis TI and presumably other apps.

In one of our other threads, Dan Goodell made the observation that you have to track what an imaging program is doing to the MBR if you want to know what the imaging program is actually changing.

In the absolute sector 0 on HDD's before the new Vista 2048 sector boot region, there has always been some error *text* data that the boot sequence will display if something goes wrong.  Dan pointed out that by using a *disk editor*, the text can be *altered* (replace some of the text without adding more data or spaces to the text--i.e. change *missing* to perhaps *mizzing*) without effecting the ability of the HDD to boot, so you can identify it as being your original MBR vs something the imaging program has over-written and inserted--either on its own or from an image file that did not have that *altered* text.

I have done this, and also added additional *text* to *blank* areas of the boot region--so I could see if it's just absolute sector 0 that is restored--or if the whole boot region (sectors 0 through 63) is restored--note--Dan warned that *blank* areas might be *meaningful* in the boot region, so don't do this unless you can afford to loose your HDD's data and partitioning--i.e. have a backup image, or the original HDD removed and using a *test* HDD!

Apparently, Vista will function regardless of whether the boot region is 63 sectors or 2048 sectors--I wonder if using the *BCDEDIT* to make Vista work with the boot sequence more like the pre-Vista way as suggested for DOS based Ghost (Vista and Symantec Ghost 8.x), would allow Vista images and restores with TI 10 to not require a *repair* to solve "winload.exe is missing..." error message!?
 

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John.
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #13 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 1:07pm
 
http://www.wilderssecurity.com/showthread.php?p=1054655#81
Quote:
How can TI 10 be "Vista Compatible" when it can't even restore a partition created by Vista correctly? Also, what sense does it make to "move" the partition anyway? The system is expecting it to be at the location that it created it in. Acronis could have saved themselves and a lot of users a ton of problems by making TI restore "Vista" partitions back to the way they were when Vista created them.


My sentiments exactly.  I hope Ghost 12 doesn't have this issue.  Having to repair the incorrect processing done by a restore with a Windows BCD utility doesn't make a software product "compatible" in my opinion.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Vista and Ghost 12
Reply #14 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 2:10pm
 
I bought a copy of ATI 10 because it was "Vista Compatible", but after reading all the problems it has over at the TI forum, I have uninstalled ity and feel like I was ripped off.  I never used it at all.

Sorry I can't add anything constructive to the conversation.  The only reason I monitor this board is because I am still looking for an imaging/backup solution that really is VISTA compatible.  Cheesy
 
 
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