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GoBack causes configuration problems. (Read 18363 times)
BodyAndSpirit
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GoBack causes configuration problems.
Jan 5th, 2008 at 6:55pm
 
I have a problem  with my computer which involves Ghost and GoBack

My computer configuration is:

P4, 1.3 Gh, 1.28 MB Ram, Intel D850GB mobo
XP Home
40 Gig Samsung drive, 60 Gig Western Digital drive and two optical drives (DVD writeable).
NIS 2007, NSW 2007, Ghost.

The optional GoBack of NSW was also installed.

My problem concerns how my computer views my hard drives.

Last December, Disk Management (My Computer/Manage/Diskmanagement) would show in the bottom right panel

Disk 0, 40 GB drive with two partitions. (My XP Home was in the first partition)
Disk 1, 60 GB drive with two partitions.

Going into the recovery invironment of Ghost, I had no errors in accessing any of the infomation.

In December I tried to install a 200 Gig Western Digital drive which had a Disk Drive Overlay Program (DDO). DDO conflicted with GoBack so I uninstalled GoBack.

The 200 Gig WD drive did not work, as all I could get was 1.7 Gigs out of it.

I couldn't uninstall the DDO as the installation disk had the uninstall part greyed out. Western Digital was absolutely no help as they kept refering to the uninstallation part of the installation disk which was greyed out.

I eventually learned that GoBack and DDO both installed their programs before the normal stuff of a hard drive. So dropping an image on it would not replace or wipe out the program. Nor would reformatting accomplish it.

I eventually was able to wipe it out with a bootable floppy with "Zap" on it and it zapped out the DDO program on my 40 gig with XP Home on it. Dropped an image of XP on it and I was in business...or so I thought.

At this time I decided to reconfigure my hard drives and optical drives with new cables. And this is where I may have done something really dumb.

My Intell motherboard has a
     1) Primary IDE connector (for a 40 pin cable with the usual master/slave connectors) and a
     2) Secondary IDE connector (with it's 40 pin cable with the usual master/slave connectors)

I switched the master/slave connections, not realizing that in so doing I was (in effect) switching the connections to the motherboard. For example, switching the master connection to my 40 gig drive with XP to the master of the other ribbon changed it's connection to the motherboard from the Primary IDE connector to the secondary IDE connector. And consequently the second drive was connected to the Primary IDE connector of the motherboard.

But I am cautious when I make changes, so I disconnected the cable to the secondary IDE connector to the motherboard, not realizing that I was in effect disconnecting my 40 gig drive with XP.

My second 60 gig drive with no OS was then the drive connected to the Primary IDE connector of the motherboard.

Booting resulted in the computer trying to boot GoBack!!!!  And of course, the resultant failure to boot.

Realizing what happened, I corrected the cabling, but I now had the following situation...

Disk 0, 60 GB drive with two partitions.  Shocked
Disk 1, 40 GB drive with XP in the first partition. Shocked

This is the opposite of the configuration at the beginning of this post (when everything was working right) when I said:

Disk 0, 40 GB drive with two partitions. My XP Home was in the first partition
Disk 1, 60 GB drive with two partitions.

But now my Ghost recovery enviroment does not work right. I get error messages and some of the partitions are not displayed.

I have tried a number of things,
     1) Zapped and reformatted the 60 gig drive.
     2) -Tried a actual XP clean install on the 40 gig drive with the DVD slaved to the  40 gig drive on the Primary IDE connector
         -Checked disk management and it shows the 40 gig drive as Disk 0,,,good so far.
         -shut down, disconnected the DVD, rebooted
         -checked disk management and it shows the 40 gig drive as Disk 0
         -formatted the second partition of the 40 gig drive, rebooted
         -checked disk management and it shows the 40 gig drive as Disk 0
         -connected the 60 gig drive to the Secondary IDE connector, rebooted
         -the 40 gig drive now becomes Disk 1 and the 60 gig Disk 0 in disk management.

Hope somebody can help me on this.
         
Brian
 
 
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BodyAndSpirit
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #1 - Jan 6th, 2008 at 10:06pm
 
An Update...

I removed the secondary IDE connector from the mobo.

Did a clean install of XP where Windows stated it was installing on:

"Disk 0 at ID 0 on bus 0 on ATAPI [MBR]"

Shutdown and booted my Ghost 10 into the recovery environment and it works perfectly.

I wondered if my BIOS is corrupted in some fashion. Reinstalled the bios but no change as my custom values remain the same.

From what I understand, CMOS keeps the settings. Strangely, Intel does not seem to address how to return the bios to it's default values.

Doe's anybody know how to do this?

The only alternative is to remove the battery. But for how long?

B.
 
 
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BodyAndSpirit
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #2 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 6:55pm
 
A further update...

Did a XP clean install till SP2 with only the Primary IDE connection to the motherboard (hard drive with XP connected to the master and a DVD optical drive slaved). The cable to the Secondary IDE connector on the mobo was removed.

Installed Intels...
1) INF driver
2) IDE driver

Then installed the rest of XP Home updates

At this point no problems with the Ghost recovery environoment etc.

Shut down and connected the secondary IDE cable to the mobo's Secondary IDE connector with the second hard drive connected as a master.

Booted and got the message "NTLDR" is missing.

Shut down, removed the secondary IDE cable from the mobo's Secondary IDE connector (thus removing the secondary hard drive).

Rebooted with no problems.

Does anybody have any suggestions?

Can anybody suggest a site which may specialize in this type of problem?

Any help at all would be very much appreciated.

B.
 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #3 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 7:01pm
 
Just to clarify, the ribbon to the secondary IDE connector on the mobo was not connected during the XP clean install.

It was only connected after the XP updates at which point a "NTLDR is missing" message appeared on the reboot.

B
 
 
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Rad
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #4 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 7:10pm
 
I have no experience with GoBack, but have heard heard of enuf problems and conflicts that I don't recommend it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. Interesting.
 
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BodyAndSpirit
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #5 - Jan 7th, 2008 at 9:58pm
 
Thanks Rad

I certainly do not intend to reinstall GoBack.

At this point, I think it has gone beyond GoBack as I am pretty sure I have "irradicated" it from my system and my hard drives in particular.

It is the "effect" of GoBack which is what I must deal with at this point which "seems" to be a mixed up output/input from my on-board IDE primary and secondary connectors.

And that was the reason for my asking if anybody knows of a site that more or less deals with on-board IDE primary and secondary connector issues. Something like this site which specializes in Ghost issues.

Only they would tend to specialize with on-board IDE connectors or maybe more generally with motherboard issues.

Can anybody point me to such a site, even if they have not used it?

At this point, I feel I do not have any options.

B.
 
 
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Dan Goodell
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #6 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 2:57pm
 
Let's separate your system into two groups:

(1) the motherboard, bios, ide connectors, and ide cables;

(2) the hard disks, each with its own jumper pins, MBR, partition table, and partitions.

GoBack does not and cannot affect anything in the first group.  So in that group, check that your cabling is connected properly and that the bios is configured properly.  Some bios setups let you configure which hard disk and/or ide channel the system is supposed to boot from, so make sure you've set that back to the defaults (the primary disk on the first ide channel).

What GoBack does is seriously mess with the second group.  Specifically, it replaces the disk's MBR, installs its own DDO overlay in track 0, and mangles the partition table with its own proprietary codes.  (This is why it is incompatible with anything else that wants to use the MBR or first track, such as boot managers, disk encryption systems, or manufacturer DDOs to enhance large disk access.  It's also incompatible with attempts to bypass the hard disk when booting, since the boot process must go through GoBack's DDO or the hard disk can't be read properly.)

Messing with the partitions themselves (such as imaging or restoring) won't solve your problem, as it is within the front (non-partition) part of the disk.  You need to completely eradicate all traces of GoBack from both disks.  You mentioned using something to "zap" the hard disks (did you do both?), but it's not clear what you used or how comprehensive it was.  You may still have traces of GoBack on one disk or the other.

I would disconnect one disk and work on only one disk at a time.  Make sure the bios is configured to the default settings, the ide cable is connected correctly, and the hard disk is jumpered correctly.  Boot to DOS from a floppy, and use TeraByte's mbrwork.exe utility to completely wipe track 0 (on both disks!) and install a standard MBR.  Then start over: partition, format, install Windows on one disk.  Then partition, format, add second disk to the system.

 
 
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BodyAndSpirit
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #7 - Jan 8th, 2008 at 8:00pm
 
Hi Dan

Thanks so much for your post.

It does confirms much of what I have done to date as a somewhat fumbling novice. I use the word fumbling as I know I lack knowledge and that makes me uncertain of what I am doing.

I was becoming desperate and settled myself down with some questions of logic.

1) Would GoBack physically damage my motherboard? I felt that would have been extremely unlikely.

2) Then what could have GoBack done? My thoughts were that it could have changed the bios or more specifically the custom settings of the bios in C-mos.

I was able to determine that the custom settings of C-mos would be lost with the removal of the on-board battery for a half-hour. Being cautious I removed it for an hour and a half.

I removed the secondary IDE connector to the motherboard (which had my second drive as a master).

On booting, I was required to enter the bios to enter my custion settings.

Entering Windows and then clicking My Computer/Manage/Disk Management, every thing was OK with my hard drive with XP being shown as Disk 0

Shut down, connected the Secondary IDE connector (with my second drive) to the motherboard and it shows up as disk 1 in Disk Management.

Shut down and entered the recovery environment of Ghost 10. Clicked the utilities menu and no errors in any of the selections. In contrast, I had errors before deleting my custom settings in Cmos.

So, at this point, everything now "seems" to be ok. Yet, as a novice, I am not certain of this especially in light of your post.

A puzzling matter...

In the "View Partition Info" of the Utilities section of the recovery environment of Ghost 10,
     Disk 1 is shown as my second drive
     Disk 2 is shown as my first drive with my OS, XP.

I am wondering if this is unique with my computer (and therefore there may portray unresolved issues and therefore I should follow the instructions of your last paragraph to the letter). Or whether Ghost 10 just bumps each new drive down in the listing.

It would appear Ghost does not have a "Disk 0" as Windows does.

I would ask someone who has a second drive to check this out with their Ghost 10.

Like is their hard drive (with their Operating System) shown as Disk 2 (with 2 drives)?

=====================================================

The above is what I have done to date. I will now address the points you bring up.

I did remove Western Digitals DDO from my C-drive with the low level formatter "Zap". Zap removes about a megabyte of data from the very beginning of the drive (which would be the MBR or first track as you phrase it).

Later, I removed Goback from my second drive (with Zap), but by then the horse was out of the barn.

You confirm my own understanding that restoring an image or reformatting does not solve the problem.

About the cabling, jumpers etc, I was very careful about them, checking the settings many times before booting. My error was in not tracing the connections back to the motherboard.

I know little about the MBR. In your last paragraph you speak of installing a standard MBR which is something I didn't do (not having read your post at the time).

My question is "Wouldn't windows install a new MBR on the drive it is partitioning, formatting and performing a clean install?" If it is critical to install the MBR, before the install of XP, I would like to do it and get this mess over it.  Smiley

Thanks for your response.

B
 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #8 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 4:07am
 
"Wouldn't windows install a new MBR on the drive it is partitioning, formatting and performing a clean install?"

Yes, it should.  So you shouldn't need to worry about writing a new standard MBR.  (FTR, that's one of the options in the MbrWork menu, so I typically do it as a matter of habit.)

From what you say, it sounds like the zap program cleared all of track 0, and if you did it on both disks that should have taken care of eliminating GoBack.

It sounds like you're saying everything is working and all symptoms are fine with a fresh XP install and a reformatted secondary disk.  So really, your only issue is with the way the disks are reported in Ghost 10, right?  Then I'd say you don't really have a problem with your system at all.  It's working like it's supposed to, so don't go off looking for a hardware problem where there is none.

I don't use Ghost 10, so can't really help you there.  But offhand, let me just throw out a thought here:

Maybe someone else knows what screen you're looking at, but I wonder if it is showing you what's stored in your backup image, not the present hardware configuration.  I only do partition images instead of full-disk images (which is to say I don't know what it would look like if you did a single image that included both disks), but if you included both disks in a single image, might that image include info about the disk and partition configuration at the time the image was made?

What I'm saying is that if you made the image when the disks were reversed (60 and 40 GB), the image index might record it that way, and if you're now looking at the contents of that image it may be telling you it contains disks of 60 and 40, even though you have subsequently reversed them.

Or maybe it's vice-versa... but my point is that maybe you're misinterpreting what you're looking at.


 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #9 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
Hey Dan

Thanks for your post saying I need not reinstall XP.

I have been using Ghost 10 RE (recovery environment) as a way of confirming/disaffirming the dysfunctionality of my computer. The utilities of Ghost 10 looks at the present configuration of my computer and not at a backup.

With the issue of the DDO of Western Digital and GoBack, my computer would degrade within a short time. I was using it as a kind of benchmark as to the health of my computer when I made changes to repair it.

Now I am trying to enable Ultra ATA100 of my second drive (Western Digital 60 gig drive) from the drives bootable floppy.

It lists my two drives in this order...
Drive 1 Samsung...my XP drive
Drive 2 Western Digital

OK, so far...

Selecting drive 2, it goes on to say, "You have selected Drive 1, Model Western Digital etc.  Sad Sad

As you can see, Drive 1 is not Western Digital as per the listing it gives.

Since, my XP install was performed under the old C-mos settings, I am wondering if my computer is still messed up. Maybe not as bad as before, but still messed up.

My feeling is that it is not a coincidence when two programs mess up on the drive numbers.

My clean install of XP was performed under the old C-mos settings. I really do not want to re-install XP as it is a two day project to get to where I am now (with taking six images and archiving them).

What do you think? Is there something else we can try?

In any event, if there is no alternative to a XP clean install, I can use your suggested program MBRWork to install the MBR as you proposed. May even be a good idea to start afresh on everything and wipe out track 0 on both disks with MBRWork?

Thanks for sticking with me on this.

B.
 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #10 - Jan 9th, 2008 at 8:56pm
 
BodyAndSpirit,

I had a look at my HDs in the Ghost 10 RE. In the "View Partition Info" I have Drive 1 and Drive 2 which are appropriately labeled. Not back the front like yours.

Do you have Ghost 10 images that you can restore? Lots of reading above and I may have missed it.

 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #11 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 12:31am
 
BodyAndSpirit

I think there's something amiss with your cabling, HDD jumper settings, and/or BIOS settings (and I think Windows Registry entries are possibly introducing confounding variables because of all the adding and taking away of different HDDs and Zapping one or the other or both!)--and I doubt GoBack was/is the culprit.

Is this your motherboard?:  Intel® Desktop Board D850GB

If *Yes*, then this is the board layout:  D850GB--Components

Component *Q* is the primary IDE motherboard connector, and here's the recommended setup for two HDDs:  Connecting the IDE Cable

You should be using a 80 Conductor IDE cable with 40 Pin Connectors.  Modern cables will have the connector *A* (in the fig. 19 of the manual) in blue that connects to the motherboard's *Q* connection port.  At the other far end will be a black connector--that is the Master connector if using *Cable Select* on the HDD jumpers.  And the other connector near the black one should be grey--and the is the Slave connector if using *Cable Select*.

I would recommend that you jumper all your HDDs as *Cable Select*, and use the appropriate connector to attach you HDDs for use as Master or Slave.  Start off with just your OS HDD and connect it to the Black connector and make sure your system boots okay.

Your system being as old as it is, I doubt the BIOS supports a HDD larger than 127 GBs--and maybe it is even a lower value--so your 200 GB HDD will not work unless you use a *Dynamic Disk Overlay* (DDO) which is a software solution that loads during boot to allow for access to larger capacity HDDs than the BIOS supports--I avoid these like the plague--just too many problems happen!

Or, you could possibly get a PCI add-on IDE controller card whose built-in card BIOS supports larger HDDs (a hardware solution), and will integrate with your current BIOS to support access to larger HDDs that are hooked to the PCI controller.  (I would recommend this over DD0!)

Better yet, just keep the HDD size below the limits of your BIOS!  Want a bigger HDD--get a newer system  Wink --that's what you really want anyway--right?

You said all these problems showed up when you attempted to use new IDE cabling!  Are you still attempting to use the new cables?  Have you tried going back to the old cables?

What does the BIOS say in the Primary/Secondary IDE Master/Slave Submenus?  When you hook up just your single OS HDD as suggested above, it should be listed as the *Primary IDE Master* HDD--Yes?

And what is the BIOS settings say under the *Boot* IDE Drive Configuration Submenu show for the default boot drive?  *Primary Master IDE* should be #1--Yes?

I'm going to stop here--I will address some of the other points regarding what you have outlined previously in my next post--but we need a consistent, agreed upon starting point--or if you plan to deviate from the recommended suggestions above--then we need to know what you are doing differently--and why!
 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink !
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #12 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 12:58pm
 
Hi Brian

I appreciate your confirming the difference in the labeling of the drive numbers.

My thinking is that the "difference" speaks for itself in that there is something still "not quite right" with my computer.

I do have Ghost Images on my USB drive, but not a lot, about 10 or 15. Unfortunately, the oldest one is June of 2007. This was not brought up in this thread as I didn't know if it was relevant or not, but a few days later in that month, I did a clean install of XP and Windows would not recognize my second hard drive. Ghost 10 RE did and I had to save what files I could to my C-drive.

I now use a USB 250 gig hard drive to save my images, but of course, much too late to save my images prior to June of 2007.

I do have earlier images saved to DVD, but the quality is supect as I didn't do an integrity check when I copied the image to the DVD. Some DVD's will probably install the Ghost Image and some will not.

Thanks again for confirming the difference in drive labels in Ghost RE.

B.
 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #13 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 5:36pm
 
Hi NightOwl

I really appreciate your going through the 88 page manual. I have the manual printed out as I find the printed page much easier to read than the electronic page.

Possibly some background may be in order:

1a) The 40 gig OEM hard drive is on the motherboard's primary IDE connector and is jumpered as a master. As a OEM drive, it came with no written material. However, on the drive itself, the jumper configuration for master and slave settings are given. Unlike most hard drives, it does not distinguish between a master with a single drive on the ribbon (master only) and a master with two drives on the ribbon with the Samsung drive being the master. Somewhat strangely, the Samsung site has no information on this model.

1b) A DVD optical drive is slaved with 1a) above. Removing or adding this drive as a slave would not require changing the jumpers of the 40 gig drive. This is an assumption based on that if there was a different configuration for a mastered single drive, it would have been printed with the other configurations. 

2) the secondary drive on the motherboard's secondary IDE connector is jumpered as a single master. Therefore, it doesn't need to have the jumpers changed when the hard drive is added or deleted.

3) Previously to my first post on this board, the second optical drive was connected to a PCI card as a single master. So, the jumpers didn't need to be changed when a hard drive or optical drive was added or deleted. This is not a factor now, since the drive was disconnected before my first post.

So adding or removing hard drives and optical drives was just a simple matter of just removing the ribbon and the power cord from the power supply. I purposely configured it this way in order to avoid the possibility of forgetting to reset the jumpers or making as mistake in resetting the jumpers when I added or removed the drives.

I did wonder if the cabling was defective in some way, so I bought a pair of Belken IDE cables. Unlike the usual ribbon cabling, these cables are sleeved into a one-half (1/2) inch round cable making it much easier to see the connections and to remove them as they have "handles".

There was no change with the new cabling. I probably wasn't very clear about the circumstances around purchasing the new cabling.

=============================
Moving on to your post...

The motherboard:  "Intel® Desktop Board D850GB" is correct.

The layout in: "D850GB--Components" is right (page 9). This has been my primary reference page as it clearly identifies the primary and secondary connectors of the motherboard.

About : "Connecting the IDE Cable"  on page 38, and your comment that it is "the recommended setup for two HDDs" is a conclusion I am not sure of for the following reasons.
1) I have scoured Intel and there is no mention of this. My understanding is that it was a fairly popular board.
2) I have spent hours and hours on the internet searching for a solution to my problem and "the recommended setup for two HDDs" was never mentioned.
3) The manual makes no mention of this.
4) Specifically, page 38
     3a) does not say it is "the recommended setup".
     3b) does not even refer to "hard drives". It just says "drives".
     3c) has the heading "Connecting the IDE Cable" and shows a picture of the cabling connecting to two hard drives. I am wondering if it is a bit of a stretch to infer that two hard drives must be connected in this way from just a picture alone. Elsewhere Intel makes a specific mention of problems such as on page 15 regarding USB having shielded cables, but that is missing here.

Having said the above, I am willing to try your recommendation.

Yes, the system is old...6 years in fact, but it was cutting edge at the time. And it does support hard drives bigger than 137 Gigs. If you take a look at page 14 of the manual, it supports "Ultra ATA-66/100 protocols". And my understanding that Ultra-100 protocols are necessary for drives larger than 137 Gigs.

Elsewhere on the site, Intel confirms that it "supports 137 GB and larger IDE hard drives".

But regardless whether it does support drives larger than 137 GB, at this point however, I just want to get my computer working properly with 40 and 60 Gb drives.

About your bios questions, I feel we may be may be onto something here.

My bios menu is not configured quite the same as the manual.

IIRC, my computer started with P5. The latest version of the download is P18.

This site in Intel gives the latest bios and download (I hope a simple click will allow you to access it)...

Intel Downloads

The download version number corresponds to my bios version number saved to my hard drive (and the version I use).

I am wondering if the simplist thing would be to include a jpeg of the sections of the bios you are requesting info on. I think "a picture says a thousand words" may have some relevance here.

Could you direct me to the section of the site which will explain this to me?

An alternative would be to post a simple j-peg and I should be able to deduce how it is done with "quote".

Thanks for your patience.

B.
 
 
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Re: GoBack causes configuration problems.
Reply #14 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 5:55pm
 
About the Bios menu...

Some years ago, I did write down the bios settings and the bios menu is the same as it is now. That was about 4 or 5 years ago.

When I wiped C-mos, I used the bios settings I had written down those many years ago.

B
 
 
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