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Selectable SCSI boot (Read 27942 times)
Pleonasm
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 3:42pm
 
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It confirms, for me at least, the wisdom of running a non-virtual setup whenever possible-- not only with the benefit of speed, but now, half the cost of any OS license.

Alphaa10, the use of a virtual machine (VM) versus a physical PC is irrelevant to the OS license issue.  You can’t use the same Windows product key on two PCs – whether virtual or physical, to the best of my knowledge.  I would be surprised if the Windows Genuine Advantage security tool didn’t detect the duplicate license in use.

Again, I encourage you to simply pick up the phone and call Microsoft to find out what can and cannot be properly done.
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
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Brian
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 5:56pm
 
Pleonasm,

It certainly is confusing. Dan Goodell has a good summary.....

http://www.goodells.net/virtualpc/

Quote:
I am not a lawyer and hope never to be one, so this is not a legal interpretation. I am presenting the information here just to make the reader aware of issues concerning the End-User License Agreements (EULAs) in Microsoft's copyrighted operating systems.

Microsoft's EULAs are not exactly clear when it comes to installing one copy of Windows multiple times on a single computer. This practice evidently wasn't imagined back when the EULAs were written. Even the experts can't agree on precisely how to interpret them. Visit any of Microsoft's official newsgroups (such as microsoft.public.windowsxp.general) and you'll find the MVPs (the moderators) will argue with each other over whether multibooting duplicate installations of a single copy of XP is allowed. People have even called Redmond to get an official position, and have ended up with conflicting answers from different customer support reps.

Most reasoned arguments seem to conclude that multibooting duplicate installations with a single license is permissible as long as the duplicate installations are on a single machine and the copies cannot be run simultaneously. In the case of virtual machines, however, copies can be run simultaneously, so that argument can't be used. In the case of virtual machines, all the experts seem to be in agreement--each copy of an OS installed in a virtual machine is supposed to have its own license.

If you have an oem version of an operating system, remember that virtual machines use an emulated bios. The OS may not work if it's designed to look for certain cues in an oem bios.
 
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #17 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 6:43pm
 
That’s a nice summary, Brian.

I do agree that there has been much published ‘confusion’ about using a single Windows license multiple times in a multi-boot manner on one PC, and I don’t know the “official” answer on this question.

However, unless I am misunderstanding, Alphaa10 appears to be installing an image of one of his customer’s PC on his own PC for support purposes.  That isn’t a multi-boot situation – it is two instances of one Windows license on two separate PCs.  It seem a questionable practice to me, but again:  I have no ability to offer a legal opinion, just the advice that Alphaa10 might wish to contact Microsoft directly to pursue the issue.
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
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Nigel Bree
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #18 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 8:15pm
 
Well, licensing is such a blunt instrument that the fundamental confusion won't ever go away. Software manufacturers in general face a problem, which is the users they want to keep happy are the honest ones, but almost any freedom you grant to the nice people will be ruthlessly exploited by the smaller, but disproportionately disruptive, collection of folks with dishonest mindsets who have the time and energy to spend on gaming the system.

And this is a fundamental problem with human beings; look at the way "griefing" behaviours emerge in things like online games. The developers of these games face amazing challenges trying to manage cheating and prevent grossly antisocial behaviour.

These things are worse in online worlds because anonymity shields people from the negative consequences of their behaviour on other people. When it comes to real-world issues that put people versus corporations, some of the mental tricks individuals use with things like piracy are I suspect similarly rooted in the anonymity of the corporation. As soon as people can disconnect themselves from the idea that they are doing something which actually does harm other people, then the game changes.
 
 
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Nigel Bree
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #19 - Apr 16th, 2008 at 12:00am
 
By the way, in respect of this viewpoint about virtualization:
alphaa10 wrote on Apr 15th, 2008 at 1:42pm:
the wisdom of running a non-virtual setup whenever possible-- not only with the benefit of speed,

Leaving aside how far this is off the mark with respect to licensing, it's completely the wrong way to understand VM performance.

Actually, the only noticeable overhead they have is in emulating I/O, because the normal user code in the VM is almost completely running natively on the CPU. The bulk of what virtualization penalty you experience comes not from the virtualization process itself as such, but rather it comes from having the virtual environment running on top of a full-blown desktop OS leading to a trip through the host OS's filesystem.

If you eliminate the host OS (run, say, VMWare ESX or something similar which is just a thin bare-metal hypervisor) virtualization imposes virtually no overhead, and the benefits remain immense. So immense, in fact, that the surprising effect of virtualization is that at a large enough scale, things can get faster.

The big thing that virtualization does by allowing things that would previously run as separate machines or be on separate disks to all run shared on the same hardware is lift overall resource utilization immensely.

Normally, machines have to be provisioned to deal with peak loads, rather than their averages. As long as the loads on different machines are not closely correlated, by using virtualization to get them consolidated on shared hardware you can use the cost savings on other things, such as 15K RPM disks or dual redundant power supples, and get the benefits of those things on all the VMs.

When you combine that with the ability to move VM images around to hardware and provision them on the fly based on load - which is what you can see in action with Amazon EC2, for instance, which will even replicate the things around the world for you - the results of doing things to increase the average load factor of machines up higher is big savings overall that you can invest instead in doing things that benefit all the VMs which wouldn't be cost-effective if the machines were physically separate.
 
 
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alphaa10
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #20 - Apr 16th, 2008 at 12:41am
 
Pleonasm said, "I have no legal expertise to offer, so you should call the Licensing Department at Microsoft (800-426-9400) to get the right answer."
---
Thanks also to Pleo for the number to MS licensing. I probably should not call these people, but my curiosity about the whole issue needs resolution.
 
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #21 - Apr 16th, 2008 at 9:08am
 
To build upon the prior comments of Nigel Bree, one of the performance characteristics of VMware Workstation is its ability to share memory between the host and guest:

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VMware uses a page sharing technique to allow guest memory pages with identical contents to be stored as a single copy‐on‐write page. Many workloads present opportunities for sharing memory across virtual machines. For example, several virtual machines might be running instances of the same guest operating system, have the same applications or components loaded, or contain common data.

With memory sharing, a workload often consumes less memory than it would when running on a physical machine. As a result, the system can support higher levels of over commitment efficiently.

In addition, a VM can be configured to access a physical disk on the host system; or a virtual disk, the storage of which can be either pre-allocated, or can grow dynamically as needed.  These three options disk provide, in order, the best-to-good range of performance.

Alphaa10, please report back on what you learn from your conversations with Microsoft regarding the licensing issues.
 

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alphaa10
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #22 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 1:39pm
 
I called MS at 800-426-9400, and spent the next 35 minutes being shuffled around the phone tree. I never have encountered so many people at a single company who cannot speak clearly and expeditiously to a customer. The voices were slurred, rapid or heavily accented-- or all three. (This was not outsourced to India, but somewhere in the US)

The MS number above is general purpose, and requires the caller to understand he or she must request licensing. At the initial operator, the caller is told the call will be transferred. The call is dropped, or the call meets a recording which states the number is no longer in service. Af the second attempt, the caller is told to call presales. The call is routinely dropped.  A third call finds the MS number busy.

It appears customer service is uneven, at best, for Microsoft.
 
 
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alphaa10
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Re: Selectable SCSI boot
Reply #23 - Apr 18th, 2008 at 2:30am
 
Pleonasm said, "However, unless I am misunderstanding, Alphaa10 appears to be installing an image of one of his customer’s PC on his own PC for support purposes.  That isn’t a multi-boot situation – it is two instances of one Windows license on two separate PCs."
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Now I understand where some of the confusion in this discussion comes from-- I do not run my clients' images on my own system. Aside from understanble privacy concerns from the customers, my only objective is to replicate the problem on a healthy OS.  To this end, I merely duplicate the behavior of the client who met a problem.

Any licensing issue that might arise comes from running multiple copies of the same OS product key. As one poster observes, the old Borland argument that multiple installation to, say, a laptop and an office desktop, does not violate the license so long as both are not used simultanously, no longer applies with a VM.

The whole licensing landscape is in a state of "aftershock" from the invasion of VMs. None of the companies wants to appear greedy, but appearances aside, most are hounded by the thought of how much loot they might extract by a different licensing regime. Just as MS "discovered" that it could keep its mighty river of revenue from Windows licenses flowing by moving to a subscription model, the VM probably will bring something on the same order, no longer based on a count of machines. 

But what is "fair"? MS can speak for its own interests, but these, too, rest on customers who buy their licenses. Without paying customers-- ie. customers rejecting MS terms and moving elsewhere-- MS attorneys will be forced to find a new career. And MS might be forced, once again terrified at the prospect of losing its revenue stream, into being nicer to the customers who made it obscenely weallthy.
 
 
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