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Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run. (Read 24771 times)
Dan Goodell
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #30 - Jul 20th, 2009 at 6:56pm
 
NightOwl wrote on Jul 19th, 2009 at 10:08am:
it appears that Richard K is able to access the WinXP installation CD to install Windows--but, not able to access the Recovery Console--although I'm no longer sure if that information is being reported accurately!Do you have any ideas how that might be happening when booting from the WinXP installation CD?


I don't think I've ever tried installing XP from a SATA CD drive, but I would expect the underlying principal to be pretty much the same as from an IDE drive.  As you know, the BIOS is able to read and boot the "floppy" boot image from the CD without needing additional drivers, but the operating system on that boot image must load a CD device driver to gain access to the rest of the CD's contents.

In the case of a DOS bootable CD for an IDE CD drive, we make sure the boot image includes a DOS IDE/ATAPI driver such as the one from Oak Technologies.  In the case of a DOS bootable CD for a SATA CD drive, we need to include a DOS SATA driver such as the one from Panasonic.  That's familiar territory to the regulars on this forum.

The XP CD boots the WinPE operating system, but the principal should be the same.  The boot image needs either an IDE or SATA CD driver compatible with WinPE.  Microsoft includes an IDE driver with the WinPE boot image on a XP installation CD, but I'd be surprised if it included a SATA driver.  XP preceded the use of SATA hard disks, and we're familiar with the F6 dance needed to introduce a SATA driver to the process when installing XP from an IDE CD drive to a SATA hard disk.  SATA CD drives came along even later, so I wouldn't expect the WinPE boot image on the XP CD to include a SATA driver.  That means you wouldn't be able to read content (other than the boot image) from the CD.  Note that attempting to slip-stream a SATA driver into the XP CD won't change that.  That only affects what is included in the content portion of the CD, not the boot image.  You would need to embed the driver in the WinPE boot image.

AFAIK, the general rule is you always need to add a device driver to read content from a CD or DVD, whether it's DOS or WinPE, and whether it's real-mode or protected-mode.  For hard disks, you do not need to add a driver to read/write in real-mode, regardless of whether it's IDE or SATA.  (The driver is already built into the BIOS.)  You always need to add a driver to read/write in protected-mode.

In the basic scenario where one installs XP from an IDE CD to an IDE hard disk, my understanding is the BIOS boots WinPE in real-mode from the CD's boot image, WinPE loads an IDE CD driver, Setup reads content from the CD and copies it to the hard disk, and copies protected-mode drivers for the CD and hard disk.  Then the system reboots itself from the hard disk.  The CPU is switched into protected-mode, but by now the appropriate protected-mode drivers are on the hard disk, so Setup continues to have access to both the CD and hard disk to finish the installation.

In the scenario where one installs XP from an IDE CD to a SATA hard disk, the same sequence would work until you get to the part where the CPU switches into protected-mode.  At that point, Setup loses further access to the SATA hard disk.  The solution is to copy a SATA protected-mode driver onto the hard disk during the real-mode, "copying files" phase so that it's available after the reboot.  That can be done either via F6, or by adding the SATA driver into the content of the XP CD.

In the scenario where one installs XP from a SATA CD, I think you would get hung up at the part where Setup tries to read content from the CD.


 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #31 - Jul 20th, 2009 at 10:38pm
 
Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 20th, 2009 at 6:56pm:
In the scenario where one installs XP from an IDE CD to a SATA hard disk, the same sequence would work until you get to the part where the CPU switches into protected-mode.At that point, Setup loses further access to the SATA hard disk.The solution is to copy a SATA protected-mode driver onto the hard disk during the real-mode, "copying files" phase so that it's available after the reboot.That can be done either via F6, or by adding the SATA driver into the content of the XP CD.

In the scenario where one installs XP from a SATA CD, I think you would get hung up at the part where Setup tries to read content from the CD.


Thanks, Dan.
That all is a little confusing to me- not a professional or even too familiar with the workings of a computer.

You referred to instaling XP from an IDE CDROM but I installed it from my SATA drive with no issues.

So far I can't find a SATA driver on my Dell Resource CD.  However the computer was delivered with a  SATA CD-RW drive model #GSA-H31N

Made by: HLDS (send email)
Category:Optical Drives Class:SATA
Model #:GSA-H30L,GSA-H30N,GSA-H31L,GSA-H31N 

I found this at the Serial ATA International website.

If this is correct- a SATA drive- could I put this original CD-RW back back in the PC and expect it to find a SATA disk driver?

I have spent a good bit of time searching for an available SATA driver for my Plextor.  So far no such luck.  On a couple of different forums discussing PM and SATA drives a poster stated that PM8 would see a SATA CD-RW and work with it, what ever that means.

Plextor suggested I follow a link to Symantec tech support.  There were several discussions of PM and SATA drives but no actual SATA drivers as far as I can see.

I may chat with Symantec support but I have found it difficult to communicate a problem beyond what is apparently in a book they use to respond.

I could try MicroSoft support, see what they have.

Richard
 
 
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Dan Goodell
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #32 - Jul 21st, 2009 at 5:28am
 
Richard K wrote on Jul 20th, 2009 at 10:38pm:
You referred to instaling XP from an IDE CDROM but I installed it from my SATA drive with no issues.

The symptoms you've related in your earlier posts in this thread don't support that statement and appear to be more consistent with my interpretation.

As I said, I've never actually tried to install XP from a SATA CD drive, so I could be wrong.  I've seen people claim that they were able to install XP on a SATA hard disk without adding a driver, and then jump to the conclusion that the XP CD must support SATA hard disks.  But invariably they'd failed to recognize that their BIOS was set to a compatibility mode that treated the SATA hard disk like an ordinary ATA/IDE disk.  The XP CD didn't actually support SATA, it just didn't see a SATA hard disk in the system.

If it's possible for the BIOS to incorporate such a compatibility mode for SATA hard disks, it wouldn't be a stretch to think that might be done for SATA CD drives, too.  I haven't seen evidence of that, but my experience tinkering with SATA CD drives has been limited so far.



 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #33 - Jul 21st, 2009 at 10:12am
 
@
Richard K

Quote:
So far I can't find a SATA driver on my Dell Resource CD.

Is there an on-line user manual for your Dell motherboard/system that you can link to so we can read the manual?  Or, what is the specific Dell system id number for the specific model?

The driver may not be obvious on the CD--here's where I find my RAID drivers needed for adding during a WinXP install by using the F6 routine:

Quote:
X:\Other\Promise\IdeRAID\chip20276\Driver

So, to find this, I had to know the Maker (Promise--found in the motherboard manual), the type of controller (IdeRAID), and the actual controller chipset (chip20276--found in the motherboard manual) to locate the correct *driver* sub-directory on the CD!

Here's the list of directories and files under that *driver* directory:

Quote:
NT4  (a directory)
Win9x-ME  (a directory)
Win2000  (a directory)
WinXP  (a directory)
FASTTRAK
README.TXT
setup.txt
Txtsetup.oem


And, here's the *setup.txt* instructions on how to use this driver:

Quote:
Windows xp
Installing Driver During New Windows xp Installation
Note: Before the Windows  xp installing, please copy the whole files in the folder as follows "\Other\Promise\IDERAID\20276\Winxp\" of the Driver CD(Support CD came with the M/B) to a floppy disk.

1. CD-ROM Install: Boot from the CD-ROM. Press <F6> after the message "Press F6 if you need to install third party SCSI or RAID driver" appears.
2. When the "Windows XP Setup" window is generated, press "S" to Specify an Additional Device(s)
3. Insert the Driver diskette into driver A: and press "Enter" key.
4. Choose "WinXP FastTrak100-Lite Controller" from the list that appears on screen, then press the "Enter" key.
5. The Windows XP Setup screen will appear again saying "Setup will load support for the following mass storage devices:" The list will include "WinXP FastTrak100-Lite controller"..
NOTE: If you need to specify any additional devices to be installed, do so at this time. Once all devices are specified, continue to step 6.
6. From the Windows XP Setup screen, press the Enter key. Setup will now load all device files and then continue the Windows XP installation.

I have included the above not because it specifically relates to you--but, because it illustrates that the hardware manufacturers sometime give inaccurate instructions and advice for using their products!!!!

Unless I am reading it wrong--it says to *copy (all the) files in the folder "WinXP" to a floppy disk*.  If you do that, you will get an error when you use the floppy disk when asked for in the F6 procedure!  It turns out that the instructions should have said *copy all the files in the folder "driver"* so it includes the sub-directories for NT4 and Win2000--as well as WinXP and the other files.  The reason being--the file *Txtsetup.oem* which is not in the WinXP directory is needed--it tells WinXP's installation routine how to install the drivers via the F6 routine. 

But, that's not all!  The *Txtsetup.oem* also tells the install routine to look at the NT4 and Win2000 directories to make sure you are not trying to install the drivers to those OS's!  So, if those sub-directories are not present, the *Txtsetup.oem* will cause a installation error message and the drivers will not be installed!!!!

Again, this is not specific to your situation--it represents my issues I had to work through!  But, my point is you need to look for your drivers and they may be buried deep within the CD disc.  And, you have to find whatever information is given on how to install those drivers--and even that may be less than accurate!

Does your Dell User Guide talk anywhere about needing to use F6 to install SATA controller drivers for WinXP installation?

But, if you have a Dell--didn't WinXP come already installed?

Did you have a *Recovery Partition* and/or a *Utility Partition* on the HDD along with your OS partition?

I have seen reference that you often do not get a WinXP installation CD if you have a Recovery Partition because that re-installs your WinXP to the *factory fresh* state--so no WinXP installation CD is needed!

Also--some oem WinXP CD's do not actually have the *Recovery Console* available on the CD depending on how the OEM (Dell) have created their WinXP installation CD!  Maybe that's why you can not access the Recovery Console on you CD.  That may be because there's supposed to be a *Utility Partition* on your system to use for troubleshooting instead--don't know for sure--that's why I asked about an on-line User Guide for your system so we can look at the details!

If you can find a non-OEM WinXP installation CD--i.e. a retail WinXP installation CD (borrow from someone?)--try that to see if you can access the Recovery Console (but, remember...you might need to use the F6 routine to install SATA controller drivers for the installation to continue)!

Or, try your WinXp installation CD on another system to see if you can access the Recovery Console on that CD (and remember--depending on the system--it may need the F6 routine to load the installation files--the owner of the system has to know if that's needed or not!).

 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #34 - Jul 21st, 2009 at 10:16am
 
@
Dan Goodell

Quote:
I've seen people claim that they were able to install XP on a SATA hard disk without adding a driver, and then jump to the conclusion that the XP CD must support SATA hard disks.  But invariably they'd failed to recognize that their BIOS was set to a compatibility mode that treated the SATA hard disk like an ordinary ATA/IDE disk.  The XP CD didn't actually support SATA, it just didn't see a SATA hard disk in the system.

Arrrrgh!...so many confounding variables!!!

Richard K.

Can you look in your BIOS to see what your SATA controller(s) mode are set at?
 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #35 - Jul 21st, 2009 at 11:12am
 
I see the following in the BIOS

SATA operation = RAID ON

SATA-1  ON
Controller Details
     Controller = Serial ATA
     Port = SATA-1

I am going to have to take a break from this.  My wife is coming back from a trip and she gets P.O.ed when I start "fixing" the computer, especially when it is working. 

I appreciate your patience and willingness to try to help me.  I'll get back to this a little later.

One last question for now.  If I still need a SATA driver will I get one if I buy a new CD-RW?  If that will help CD-RWs are not expensive these days.

Thanks,
Richard
 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #36 - Jul 22nd, 2009 at 2:06am
 
NightOwl wrote on Jul 21st, 2009 at 10:12am:
Is there an on-line user manual for your Dell motherboard/system that you can link to so we can read the manual?Or, what is the specific Dell system id number for the specific model?

Yes, Dell has online manuals... although Richard is still keeping it secret which Dell model he has.  Dell's CMOS setup options vary by model.  Some models have an IDE compatibility mode for SATA hard disks, others don't.  In some models RAID mode really means RAID, while in others it just means "anything other than IDE-compatible."  It's hard to say without knowing the model.


Richard K wrote on Jul 21st, 2009 at 11:12am:
If I still need a SATA driver will I get one if I buy a new CD-RW?

I wouldn't expect so.  The driver relates to the SATA controller chip on the motherboard, not the storage device--IOW, you're focused on the wrong end of the SATA cable.  On Dells, it will often be an Intel controller (on motherboards with Intel CPUs) or Via controller (on motherboards with AMD CPUs).  The driver may be on the Resource CD, but it's generally available from the Dell website, as well.




 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #37 - Jul 22nd, 2009 at 11:10am
 
The computer is a Dell E520.

There is a driver for the  original HLDS CD-RW on the Dell site.  They also had 15 additional drivers but all of those appeared to be for specific CD-RWs.

I will put the original CD-RW back in and try it out.

Richard
 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #38 - Jul 23rd, 2009 at 1:20am
 
@
Richard K

Quote:
The computer is a Dell E520

Does this look like your User Manual?

Quote:
There is a driver for the  original HLDS CD-RW on the Dell site.  They also had 15 additional drivers but all of those appeared to be for specific CD-RWs.

I will put the original CD-RW back in and try it out.

Richard--you're not paying attention!

Dan Goodell wrote on Jul 22nd, 2009 at 2:06am:
Richard K wrote on Jul 21st, 2009 at 11:12am:
If I still need a SATA driver will I get one if I buy a new CD-RW?

I wouldn't expect so.  The driver relates to the SATA controller chip on the motherboard, not the storage device--IOW, you're focused on the wrong end of the SATA cable.  On Dells, it will often be an Intel controller (on motherboards with Intel CPUs) or Via controller (on motherboards with AMD CPUs).  The driver may be on the Resource CD, but it's generally available from the Dell website, as well.

(IOW=*in other words*)

The *driver* we're wondering about is not for the optical drive!  It is for the SATA controller on the motherboard!

Clicking on the Drivers and Downloads link doesn't show any SATA controller driver that I can recognize that would be used for the F6 procedure during WinXP installation!

Your WinXP installation CD--where did that disc come from?  Was it included with your Dell system?  Or, is it a retail installation CD?
 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #39 - Jul 23rd, 2009 at 8:28am
 
Richard K wrote on Jul 22nd, 2009 at 11:10am:
The computer is a Dell E520.

There is a driver for the original HLDS CD-RW on the Dell site. They also had 15 additional drivers but all of those appeared to be for specific CD-RWs.

Those aren't drivers, those are firmware patches for the firmware inside the various CD/DVD drives.


NightOwl wrote on Jul 23rd, 2009 at 1:20am:
Clicking on the Drivers and Downloads link doesn't show any SATA controller driver that I can recognize that would be used for the F6 procedure during WinXP installation!

It's there, but you gotta have a knack for the somewhat obtuse way Dell does things.  You'll find the SATA driver on the page to download E520 drivers, XP OS, SATA Drives, Intel - Driver.  Ignore Dell's "Installation Instructions" and just download R158601.EXE, extract the contents, and dump them on a floppy.

I believe the E520 BIOS has the ability to use IDE-compatibility mode for a SATA hard disk.  In the E520 BIOS, the "SATA Operation" settings are either "RAID On" for SATA mode, or "RAID Autodetect/ATA" for IDE-compatible mode.  (Yeah, I know, not very intuitive.)

BIOS default on many Dells is often "Autodetect/ATA", so that may explain how Richard previously got by without knowing about F6.  If in ATA mode, you shouldn't need the SATA driver.  In SATA mode ("RAID On"), you need the driver and F6 procedure.

Here's a link for Richard that illustrates the F6 process.  It specifically describes RAID, but SATA falls under exactly the same procedure.




 
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #40 - Jul 23rd, 2009 at 9:51am
 
@
Dan Goodell

Quote:
It's there, but you gotta have a knack for the somewhat obtuse way Dell does things.  You'll find the SATA driver on the page to download E520 drivers, XP OS, SATA Drives, Intel - Driver.  Ignore Dell's "Installation Instructions" and just download R158601.EXE, extract the contents, and dump them on a floppy.

Couldn't figure it out at first!  That *R158601.exe* is not apparent on the download page.

It's the *Intel Driver*, v7.5.0.1017, A08--the second item listed under the *SATA Drives (8)* category!  After you click download, it then shows that *R158601.exe* file name!

I'm out of town until next week and away from computer access--so won't be able to continue until then!
 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #41 - Jul 23rd, 2009 at 5:23pm
 
NightOwl wrote on Jul 23rd, 2009 at 9:51am:
I'm out of town until next week and away from computer access

Going camping?
 
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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #42 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 12:41am
 
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Yup--up in the Pacific NW Cascade mountains--beautiful, invigorating, refreshing, renewing--did I say I enjoyed myself?!
 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #43 - Jul 28th, 2009 at 12:44am
 
@
Richard K

Are you still interested in pursuing this? 

Waiting for answer:

Quote:
Your WinXP installation CD--where did that disc come from?  Was it included with your Dell system?  Or, is it a retail installation CD?
 

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Re: Oh Nooooo! I can't get the MS recovery console to run.
Reply #44 - Jul 30th, 2009 at 7:12pm
 
I haven't forgotten or abandoned this business with the optical drive.  I have downloaded the SATA driver and gotten in onto a floppy.  There are some things I have to attend to that have higher priority right now.

It will be a week or two before I can get back to this.

My WinXP installation CD came with the computer.  It is a Dell reinstallation CD.

Richard
 
 
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