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Brian

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #75 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:26pm

Dan Goodell wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 7:24am:

IOW, the two PartInfo reports in Reply #67 are not different looks at the same partition table, they are different partition tables--one with partitions created one way, and one with partitions created the other way.

Dan, I'm having trouble with this concept because those two PartInfo reports were created a few minutes apart. To me they are different looks at the same partition table. One look with CHS Alternative selected in BING and one look without the selection.

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	Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003 Reply #76 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 4:24pm Dan, I'm impressed with Xnews and Thunderbird Portable. One question. Do we need to change the drive letter of the USB flash drive (on other computers) so that it matches the paths in the Files tab of Xnews and Local Folders in Thunderbird?
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Dan Goodell

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #77 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 5:59pm

Brian wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:26pm:

those two PartInfo reports were created a few minutes apart. To me they are different looks at the same partition table

Really??? Ouch, that would be extremely disturbing! I disdain utilities that mask the facts and instead show their interpretation of the facts. The partition table contains static numbers. To reinterpret those numbers and pretend they are different numbers is definitely not what I want to know. I want to know what numbers are actually there. It would be foolish to think every utility will reinterpret things the same way, so just tell me what's there, not what you think should be there!

Readers can use a tool like DiskEdit or Roadkil's Sector Editor to see the actual numbers in your own partition table. The partition table is at the bottom of LBA 0. In the illustration below, I've highlighted the BCHS and ECHS bytes in the first (yellow) and fourth (orange) descriptors for reference.

The three bytes in each CHS group denote the head number, sector number, and cylinder number, except you need to lop the high-order two bits off the middle byte and tack them onto the high end of the third byte. To visualize, the bits in the C, H, and S values are mapped to the partition descriptor bytes as follows:

    1111 1111 - 1111 1111 - 1111 1111
hhhh hhhh
 - cc
ss ssss
 - cccc cccc

For example, to decode the BCHS values (00-C1-FF) in the fourth descriptor:

       0 0    -    C 1    -    F F 
0000 0000
 - 11
00 0001
 - 1111 1111


    C = 11 1111 1111
 = 1023
    H =    0000 0000
 =    0
    S =      00 0001
 =    1

A CHS of 1022/254/63 would be recorded as FE-FF-FE hexadecimally.

Hmm, on second thought . . . Brian, when you captured those PartInfo reports, were you booting through BING? BING has the capability of rewriting the partition table on the fly each and every time you boot, so perhaps BING is rewriting a different partition table based on your BING settings. In that case, PartInfo would indeed be seeing two different partition tables. Users who don't use BING don't get a new partition table every time they boot.

partdesc.jpg (37 KB | 515 )

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Brian

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #78 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 6:49pm

Dan, you have hit the nail on the head. I am booting with BING and using the same 4 partitions in the MBR. But BING is changing the partition table.

These extracts from Sector Editor and partinfo were taken when CHS Alternative was not selected in BING.

===============================================================================
               MBR Partition Information (HD0 - 0x41AB2316)
               (CHS: 1022/254/63) (WCHS: 77825/255/63)
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+
| 0: | 80 | 5 0 1 | 7 | 1022 254 63 |    80325 | 26651835 |
| 1: | 0 | 1022 254 63 | e | 1022 254 63 | 934404660 |    32130 |
| 2: | 0 | 1022 254 63 | e | 1022 254 63 | 934436853 |    32067 |
| 3: | 0 | 1022 254 63 | f | 1022 254 63 | 53335800 | 880635105 |
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+

These extracts from Sector Editor and partinfo were taken when CHS Alternative was selected in BING.

===============================================================================
               MBR Partition Information (HD0 - 0x41AB2316)
               (CHS: 1022/254/63) (WCHS: 77825/255/63)
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+
| 0: | 80 | 5 0 1 | 7 | 1023 254 63 |    80325 | 26651835 |
| 1: | 0 | 1023 0 1 | e | 1023 254 63 | 934404660 |    32130 |
| 2: | 0 | 1023 1 1 | e | 1023 254 63 | 934436853 |    32067 |
| 3: | 0 | 1023 0 1 | f | 1023 254 63 | 53335800 | 880635105 |
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+

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NightOwl

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #79 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 7:55pm

@

Dan Goodell

Quote:

IOW, the two PartInfo reports in Reply #67 are not different looks at the same partition table, they are different partition tables--one with partitions created one way, and one with partitions created the other way.

Okay, so that was going to be my first question to Brian--were the PartInfo's reported from the *same* HDD with the same partition table, or did he use BING and re-partition using a different setting in BING? It sounded like is was simply the same HDD with a different setting in BING--and apparently that is in fact *true*--but, as Brian has said:

Quote:

Dan, you have hit the nail on the head. I am booting with BING and using the same 4 partitions in the MBR. But BING is changing the partition table.

Well, BING is apparently not a *good example* to support this premise:

Quote:

The partition table contains static numbers.

!!!!!

I would have to say I agree with this response:

Quote:

Really??? Ouch, that would be extremely disturbing! I disdain utilities that mask the facts and instead show their interpretation of the facts. The partition table contains static numbers.

But, I guess BING is not *masking* anything! It's re-writing the *facts* to it's own ends!!!!

I'm afraid this has made the *whoooshing* sounds a bit loader! I will post more questions in my next post.

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #80 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 9:04pm

NightOwl,

Regarding BING changing the MBR. The following comments are only partly relevant to the above discussion. You can run BING in unlimited primaries mode. Partition information is stored in the EMBR, LBA-1 and beyond. Up to 200 primary partitions are supported on the HD but you can only have a maximum of 4 primary partitions in the MBR. Each Boot Item creates its own MBR (partition table). Say you want to boot partition 4. The Boot Item could contain partitions 4, 6, 8, 2 or it could contain 4, 6. A maximum of 4 primary partitions and a minimum of 1. You don't have to fill all four slots.

It took six months before I was game to use unlimited primaries.

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #81 - Dec 8^th, 2010 at 1:17am

A few more points to decrease the whoosh. Maybe.

With unlimited primaries, Windows Disk Management only sees the partitions that are in the MBR. The partitions that aren't in the MBR are represented by Unallocated Space. However IFW and TBOSDT can see all the primary partitions on the HD as they are reading the EMBR. So you can use IFW to backup or restore a partition that isn't seen by Windows as it isn't in the current MBR.

You can use TBOSDT to copy data to/from partitions that aren't seen by Windows.

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #82 - Dec 8^th, 2010 at 10:36am

@

Brian

Thanks for that link about how to restore an image to certain laptops that *require* creating an atypical CHS pattern--specifically 240 Heads instead of the more common (?) 254 Heads. I thought the last time I asked you that I put that into my *threads to remember* file--but, could not find it (again)! It's now there!

Quote:

A few more points to decrease the whoosh. Maybe.

It's actually not BING that has *caused* the whooshing sound(s)! Although, it has it's own *whoosh* factor! I haven't started using it, just yet, but when I do I will probably be *picking your brain* to help explain things (but, in a separate thread most likely Wink

!).

No, the *whooshing* is really in regards to *what I thought I knew* about partition tables, BIOSs interaction with the HDD and the HDD's geometry, and what role a HDD controller plays in determining the final HDD geometry. And does any of that influence whether you can hook up a HDD from another machine and expect it to work in a current machine.

I quite frequently hook up HDDs from other sources to an external USB adaptor (or directly to a test machine)--how does the partitioning that has been done on another machine influence the success/failure of the USB adaptor (or test machine) mounting that HDD on the system it's now attached to?

And, come to think of it--is there any influence on flashdrives that are *bootable*--and you want use it to boot multiple different machines--including laptops with the *atypical* 240 Heads requirement--is there an issue there?

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Dan Goodell

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #83 - Dec 9^th, 2010 at 5:57am

(Didn't see this earlier . . . )

Brian wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 4:24pm:

I'm impressed with Xnews and Thunderbird Portable. One question. Do we need to change the drive letter of the USB flash drive (on other computers) so that it matches the paths in the Files tab of Xnews and Local Folders in Thunderbird?

For the most part, Xnews seems to pretty immune to drive letter issues. I just take the entire Xnews folder and drop it on any drive, and when I double-click Xnews\xnews.exe, everything pops right up. The only places where the drive letter becomes material is if you use a shortcut to launch Xnews (Windows embeds the drive letter in the shortcut) and in the Files tab items you mention. That's an issue if you're downloading attachments and binaries, but the drive letter doesn't matter for ordinary newsgroup activity.

For Thunderbird Portable, I think that's the purpose of the portable executable--when it's launched it identifies what drive letter it is on and changes any relevant settings (such as in prefs.js) before it starts up the main Thunderbird app. Then Thunderbird can find things on the same drive the portable launcher starts up from. (My "Local Folders" directory, which I renamed to "Archives" to avoid confusing myself, is in the Thunderbird folder.)

That said, however, my drive letter never changes because I run the apps from a Truecrypt volume. I use a 4GB flash drive that contains the Truecrypt program, a 3.5GB Truecrypt encrypted volume, and a little .vbs script I devised. That way, if I ever lose the flash drive nobody else is going to be able to get at all my emails and such. The Truecrypt volume also carries my FTP, calendar, Quicken, and KeyPass (password manager with passwords to online accounts, networks, etc) programs on it.

When I plug the flash drive into a computer, Windows gives it a drive letter, I open that drive letter in Explorer and double-click the .vbs script. It asks me for the Truecrypt password, mounts the Truecrypt container as "drive T:", and opens a "T:\" Explorer window. In the root directory I have shortcuts to Xnews and Thunderbird. They always startup on T: and the drive letter of the flash drive is immaterial.

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	Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003 Reply #84 - Dec 10^th, 2010 at 11:01pm Dan, that KeePass app is brilliant. I'm now using it too.
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Dan Goodell

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	Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003 Reply #85 - Dec 11^th, 2010 at 4:27pm Brian wrote on Dec 10^th, 2010 at 11:01pm: Dan, that KeePass app is brilliant. I'm now using it too. Yeah, and I like that it's "no-install", so I can carry it around on my flash drive. (Thanks for correcting my spelling of the app.)
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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #86 - Dec 13^th, 2010 at 1:25am

@

Dan Goodell

So, I've been doing some web searching--trying to better understand the Cylinder-Head-Sector (CHS) setup reported in PartInfo and the HDD geometry--my starting point was a Google Search: Hard Drive Geometry . Interesting reading.....

I came across The PC Guide which appears to be slightly dated--copyright is listed as 1997-2004, but the information still seemed relevant.

One can begin here: Hard Disk Geometry Specifications and Translation . From there you can read up on HDD Physical Geometry , and then onto HDD Logical Geometry .

Seems to be quite complicated! Moving onto BIOS Geometry Translation , and then Zoned Bit Recording -- apparently no modern HDD has *63 sectors per track* anywhere on the HDD--well, maybe on the inner tracks--but that information is not easily ascertained!

Further reading--Normal / Standard CHS Mode , Extended CHS (ECHS) / Large Mode , Logical Block Addressing (LBA) , Comparison of Translation Modes -- helps shed more light (or *darkness*--depending on how much one understands of all this Wink

!) on the subject.

Remember, I asked the rhetorical question above in reply #82:

Quote:

No, the *whooshing* is really in regards to *what I thought I knew* about partition tables, BIOSs interaction with the HDD and the HDD's geometry, and what role a HDD controller plays in determining the final HDD geometry. And does any of that influence whether you can hook up a HDD from another machine and expect it to work in a current machine?

Well there's this: Caveats on Changing Translation Modes and Transferring Hard Disks Between PCs .

So, my general take away message for modern HDDs is: CHS and HDDs is a series of *smoke and mirrors*--the whole thing is *make believe*--and has no real basis in reality--everything is simply *pretend* and as long as everyone agrees--everything is *ok*!

I'm back to my question in reply #70:

Quote:

So, who's in charge here...?

There is the BIOS, the HDD controller on the motherboard, and the controller *inside* the HDD (is there anything else I'm missing?)

Reading carefully your reply #14 in this old thread: Mysterious Problem, cloning laptops , you make the following statements:

Quote:

When any computer boots, one of the first things it does is query the controller firmware on the HDD to find out the disk size and parameters. Put that HDD in an IBM (or, it seems, a HP/Compaq) laptop and it will report back cylinders/heads/sectors configuration of 5168/240/63. But put that same HDD in a Dell or Toshiba laptop and it will report back cyl/hd/sec = 4863/255/63.

and

Quote:

Note this idiosyncracy is dependent on the bios, not the HDD itself. Any autodetected HDD will always show 240 heads in a Thinkpad, and always show 255 heads in a Dell. Since all that really matters is the disk size, you'll notice the cylinder count is adjusted to provide the same disk sizes under either bios

Well, that says the BIOS is *in charge*--right?!

Quote:

Note these are fictitious numbers anyway (and have been since we got beyond 528MB disks and started using LBA a decade ago), but it has serious ramifications in the way the partitions and partition table are consequently structured. When you write your partitions and file systems using one geometry, it will not work if you try to read them using a different geometry.

So the BIOS *tells* the partitioning software that the HDD attached to it will be either a 240 head HDD, or a 255 head HDD. And, the HDD from that point on *remembers* that 240 or 255 head * fake geometry*--and it can not be placed on a different machine which uses a different head count than was initially used and be accessed--it has to be on a machine whose BIOS reports the same head count as was originally used to format and partition the HDD.

Is all that *right*?

On to the next post.....

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #87 - Dec 13^th, 2010 at 2:06am

@

Dan Goodell

In you reply #74, you made this statement:

Quote:

The early part of this thread was about the numbers actually recorded in the partition table. The latest posts are about the BIOS and geometry autodetection. Those are two different topics.

I'm not sure what you mean here--seems like everyone is posting their *PartInfo* summaries--isn't that the *actual numbers recorded in their partition tables*?

So, Brian posted his BING PartInfo's, and he simply changed in BING how he wanted the CHS to be reported--and he got 1023 cylinders in one report and 1022 in another report. So, unlike *heads* (240 vs 255), are *cylinders* not part of the HDD *geometry*?

In your reply #68 where you talk about using the Virtual PC:

I have used both ParttionMagic and Ghost 2003 on my system for years. And I have used Ghost 2003 to do *disk to image* and *image to disk* multiple times. I've upgraded from 80 GB HDDs to 120 GB HDDs, and then to 160 GB HDDs using *disk from image*--I've never seen a change in the cylinder count--I've always have had 1023 for the cylinder count.

Ah...but:

Quote:

After running a whole-disk image/restore from Windows with Ghost 2003, the "after" PartInfo exhibited several of the 1022-vs-1023 anomalies and rollover anomalies, as described in my Reply #55

You mean you used the Ghost 2003's Windows interface to set up the Ghost restore *disk from image* procedure which then did the boot to DOS to proceed, and then back to Windows--correct?! I've never done that! I always have done that from a DOS boot disk or disc! Perhaps that's were the variable that's resulting in changes in the cylinder count lies!

But, is that value *important*, given Brian's result where he can make BING report either result?

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Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003
Reply #88 - Dec 13^th, 2010 at 2:43am

NightOwl, good posts. I'm trying to understand these concepts too. One thing I noticed in the TBOS manual is the CHS values can be changed for an established partition. I hope this eventually fits together.

Quote:

Setting the CHS values for a partition entry

The SET PART GEO command will set one or more of the CHS values for a partition to specified values. The following is an example of how this command can be used:

SET PART GEO 0 1 /h=254 /s=63 for partid=1 on HD0, set last head to 254, sectors/track to 63

I tried some crazy numbers. Data partitions still worked but when done on the OS partition it no longer booted.

This is the partinfo before editing...

Code:

 MBR Partition Information (HD0 - 0x7FB77FB7)
                    (CHS: 1022/254/63)  (WCHS: 4865/255/63)
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+
| 0: | 80 |    0   1  1 |  7 |  508 254 63 |          63 |     8177022 |
| 1: |  0 |  509   0  1 |  7 | 1023 254 63 |     8177085 |    24563385 |
| 2: |  0 | 1023   0  1 |  7 | 1023 254 63 |    32740470 |    45415755 |
| 3: |  0 |    0   0  0 |  0 |    0   0  0 |           0 |           0 |
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+

And after editing...
For the second partition I used
/C=500 /H=170 /S=40

For the third partition I used
/C=300 /H=100 /S=20

Code:

MBR Partition Information (HD0 - 0x7FB77FB7)
                    (CHS: 1022/254/63)  (WCHS: 4865/255/63)
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+
| 0: | 80 |    0   1  1 |  7 |  508 254 63 |          63 |     8177022 |
| 1: |  0 | 1023  82  6 |  7 | 1023 105 30 |     8177085 |    24563385 |
| 2: |  0 | 1023  15 11 |  7 | 1023  20  5 |    32740470 |    45415755 |
| 3: |  0 |    0   0  0 |  0 |    0   0  0 |           0 |           0 |
+====+====+=============+====+=============+=============+=============+

Here is the Boot Sector information on the edited HD...

Code:

 BOOT SECTOR INFORMATION
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        File System ID: 0x7   LBA: 63  Total Sectors: 8177022   ID: 0x1
                                  Jump: EB 52 90
                              OEM Name: NTFS    
                         Bytes Per Sec: 512
                         Sec Per Clust: 8
                           Res Sectors: 0
                                Zero 1: 0x0
                                Zero 2: 0x0
                                  NA 1: 0x0
                                 Media: 0xF8
                                Zero 3: 0x0
                         Sec Per Track: 63
                                 Heads: 255
                           Hidden Secs: 63
                                  NA 2: 0x0
                                  NA 3: 0x800080
                         Total Sectors: 0x07CC57D
                               MFT LCN: 0x029ABF
                          MFT Mirr LCN: 0x03E820
                         Clust Per FRS: 0xF6
                      Clust Per IBlock: 0x1
                             Volume SN: 0xF2C474B7C4747FA1
                              Checksum: 0x0
                             Boot Flag: 0xAA55
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     File System ID: 0x7   LBA: 8177085  Total Sectors: 24563385   ID: 0x2
                                  Jump: EB 52 90
                              OEM Name: NTFS    
                         Bytes Per Sec: 512
                         Sec Per Clust: 8
                           Res Sectors: 0
                                Zero 1: 0x0
                                Zero 2: 0x0
                                  NA 1: 0x0
                                 Media: 0xF8
                                Zero 3: 0x0
                         Sec Per Track: 40
                                 Heads: 171
                           Hidden Secs: 8177085
                                  NA 2: 0x0
                                  NA 3: 0x800080
                         Total Sectors: 0x0176CEB8
                               MFT LCN: 0x0C0000
                          MFT Mirr LCN: 0x0176CEB
                         Clust Per FRS: 0xF6
                      Clust Per IBlock: 0x1
                             Volume SN: 0xFC0C3653C3608E2
                              Checksum: 0x0
                             Boot Flag: 0xAA55
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    File System ID: 0x7   LBA: 32740470  Total Sectors: 45415755   ID: 0x3
                                  Jump: EB 52 90
                              OEM Name: NTFS    
                         Bytes Per Sec: 512
                         Sec Per Clust: 8
                           Res Sectors: 0
                                Zero 1: 0x0
                                Zero 2: 0x0
                                  NA 1: 0x0
                                 Media: 0xF8
                                Zero 3: 0x0
                         Sec Per Track: 20
                                 Heads: 101
                           Hidden Secs: 32740470
                                  NA 2: 0x0
                                  NA 3: 0x800080
                         Total Sectors: 0x02B4FD4A
                               MFT LCN: 0x0C0000
                          MFT Mirr LCN: 0x02B4FD4
                         Clust Per FRS: 0xF6
                      Clust Per IBlock: 0x1
                             Volume SN: 0x3874453B7444FCDE
                              Checksum: 0x0
                             Boot Flag: 0xAA55
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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	Re: Disappearing partitions in Ghost 2003 Reply #89 - Dec 13^th, 2010 at 3:32am These are the pre and post edited partition tables from Sectedit.
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