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World's getting paranoid? (Read 576 times)
mariella
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #15 - Mar 23rd, 2020 at 5:13pm
 
NightOwl wrote on Mar 23rd, 2020 at 12:42pm:
I don't see a quick, or easy recovery for the economies of the world!


Economy, economy, economy, always economy!
NO,  absolutely NO!

Your way of thinking (also referred on the attached link to The New York Times' article) is extremely dangerous, in my opinion, because in this way we'll have millions and millions of deaths, worldwide, waiting for a developed natural herd immunity to the virus.

The point here is that by flattening the infection curve, we'll gain time, firstly reducing the infection rate (permitting to the healthcare operators to fight against), and thus gaining time in such a way to test appropiate  medicines (which can make the illness less strong and bearable), and finally to develop a suitable vaccine.
 
 
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #16 - Mar 23rd, 2020 at 11:23pm
 
With so many opinions, interests and disinformation in the midst of this tidal wave, it is complicated to get a complete clear picture of what we are living throughout the world. That's why I'm curious about how this is lived and felt elsewhere.  Sooner or later, the first wave will pass, but what we decide to do meanwhile, and the results of our actions, will reflect the moral of our societies. I can easily understand mariella's point of view, as our countries are clearly running parallel paths, and the rest perhaps hope they won't be challenged so far. I am also concerned about the economic outcome of all this, but, honestly, it depends on the damage done. Evidence is slowly piling up, but who can tell what today's figures might seem in a month's time.

When so many voices and noises make it so difficult to see clearly , we should turn to the facts. The ones I can see:

1) This disease is new. Our bodies will learn to deal with it given enough time. Right now, we feel it does not behave like a normal flu because many more people need help to resist its infection at the same time, but....

2) We were not prepared to deal properly with something of this magnitude. In any way. The problem right now should be health,  although it is sure that  economy will also be damaged, in ways we cannot even imagine right now. We still don't know how long it will take to get back to our healthy normal lives - or how these will be.

3) Our medical systems may vary on how they are financed or designed, but any of them  would collapse if NO action were taken or delayed. The examples can be easily seen, painfully enough.  And that affects not only the patients suffering this particular illness, but drags all the rest - doctors and nurses infected are a serious problem if they go down at more or less the same time, like it's happening here. Thousands of operations and treatments which are not life- or-death are cancelled or postponed. All of this will affect many more people in the short / medium term, and we're talking about worse life conditions, which also has an outcome.

4) How this first wave of virus is striking determined parts of our society (our elderly) is also to be considered. Would our reactions be the same if the virus affected the same way young and old? What IS the price of a human life? Is there a balance of how many deaths can any country stand? And I think everyone agrees that poverty and economical depression will also take their toll of lives afterwards, but we can only deal with so much without any proper information, something that we have to admit we do NOT have right now.

5) The way this desease is affecting different countries not only has to do with luck, or good/quick decisions, but there are also strong social components. Not only the age and distribution of population, but also the social links of families and their habits can determine how it will spread, and how fast.   

I think these are the most important facts right now. What we still don't know is how the virus will affect every country; when I look through figures of others who are just beginning to take the curb upwards…. I just hope they are lucky enough to have made the right decisions at the right time. But who can tell, at this point today,  where each country's limits are?

And about economy, there will be enough time to talk over it when the time comes. No diagnosys is worth it if there is no certainty about how deep and wide is the damage. The feeling is that either all the parts within economy make a deal to advance at the same time, or everyone will get hurt.

Just one last thing.

My parents are 80. They live more or less nearby (abotu 50 miles from Madrid) but in a rather solitary residential area. They chose to isolate themselves 3 weeks ago. They are lucky because they are still reasonably healthy and independent.
But what we are going through is going to change us all, our relations, our economy, all in a very risky and unpredictable environment.
I just got a glimpse of that speaking to them today.
Even taking for granted they are going to be safe during the next weeks, thanks to their isolation... They were also concerned about time itself. Who can tell how long they, and the rest of people their age,  will have to keep isolated, even if most of us can retake our (normal) lives?  What real risk will elderly people go through in the short term, even if they manage to survive this first wave? And how can it also change our economies?

Too many questions. 2020 will be a year for History books, for sure.

Please take care of yourselves.

 


 
 
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Christer
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #17 - Mar 24th, 2020 at 5:05am
 
@
Figment

Just to show that I'm following this thread but don't have too much to ad. However,

Quote:
I think these are the most important facts right now. What we still don't know is how the virus will affect every country; when I look through figures of others who are just beginning to take the curb upwards…. I just hope they are lucky enough to have made the right decisions at the right time. But who can tell, at this point today,  where each country's limits are?


I live in Sweden and I guess that we're a few weeks behind in the development of the disease but coming out of denial. I'm sure you know what I mean by "denial". We discuss all aspects of this disaster created by this disease and have also discussed the value of a life. That was quite interesting since it had been initiated long before the outbreak of Corona. Experts revealed that no matter what disease or condition, we (in Sweden) are saying that one year of good quality life is worth 100,000€. I went through heart surgery in 2011 (aorta valve) and again in 2019 (needed replacement). The first operation gave me 8 years of good quality life before the second surgey was necessary. 8 years times 100,000€ gives 800,000€ as an acceptable cost. The result of the second surgery is unknown.

Now, do the math and reach a figure that Sweden, based on the reality in other countries, should prepare to spend fighting this situation. I hope that the Swedish government will release the financial brakes and make quick decisions. They do make decisions not only to fight the disease but also to assist companies that are on the verge of collapse. The Swedish national debt (is that what it's called) is among the lowest in the world and maybe it's time to increase it rather than taxing the citizens "to death" to keep it low but I'm sure that the price of money is increasing as well.

You take care of yourself too!
 

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand
 
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Figment
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #18 - Mar 27th, 2020 at 12:26pm
 
Nearly arriving to the second week of isolation.

Figures are starting to loose their meaning. We are steadily pacing towards the 1.000 daily deaths in some countries, something that is indescribable. Now, multiply it by the number of countries that will soon suffer the same. 

The unnamed heroes are desperately trying to stich our society, before it busts. Health services, caretakers,  police, army, transporters, cashiers and rest of shop & cleaning staff have been clapped at 8 o'clock sharp even before the shutdown, and now that it dawns that these people on the frontline are being exposed so heavily to the risk (doctors, nurses and policemen are not only widely infected, but  we are starting to know about some death cases already) our rulers keep trailing far behind and continue demonstrating that, indeed,  they have not learnt anything from the disastrous crisis back in 2008.

Without even glimpsing a reasonable end or outcome of this harsh reality, northern European countries are challenging some Southern ones about how to overcome the following economical crisis. More austerity for the poor. And unwittingly, further fertilizing the ground for the next wave of extremism, which will inevitably lead to the definite breakup of Europe, and worse things to come. Kudos for Portuguese primer minister speaking clearly

https://www.portugalresident.com/repugnant-pm-costa-launches-extraordinary-attac...


I doubt this will change until it is too late to avoid. Alas, it has happened before…. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_

Please take care of yourselves.

 
 
 
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Figment
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #19 - Mar 30th, 2020 at 6:09pm
 
Into week #3.

Haven't even reached the peak, and serious debating about the consequences of stopping the country (well, they really mean the economy) to save lives is raging through the media.

The scavengers are already considering where to take their most profitable bites. Meanwhile, the coffins are piled inside an ice rink because the burial services cannot cope with the sanitizing protocols prior to their burial.

Amidst all the sacrifice and heroic behaviour of our local heros, it seems cold hearted bureaucrats will continue designing the fate of Europe, steering towards aseptic, catastrophic policies. Safe (more or less) behind their wealthy, well supplied watch towers, scrutinizing the tides of death and misery sweeping through the land. Looking through the figures like if it was just another Excel. These judges of Solomon do not fear to slice the baby in half in order to be "fair".

They are nurturing the seeds of a new breed of fascism, which we will all regret.

Take good care of yourselves.

 
 
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Figment
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #20 - Apr 2nd, 2020 at 12:15pm
 
On our 19th day of isolation, lights and shadows glide in and out as information is received.

We are starting our hardest week regarding deaths, here in Spain, even though infections are starting to loose acceleration. For sure our toll will be highest in Europe just in a few days, projections aiming at 20.000 dead. Still looking at how Italy's doing, slowly starting its trip downhill. Trying to see some light at the end of the tunnel.

It seems that in Europe, we need right now over 1.000.000 field workers to pick our crops, which otherwise, will be wasted. Underpaid jobs that relied on immigrants working in harsh conditions. In the midst of all this rising and coming devastation of people loosing jobs, we have to look at ourselves, more than ever, in the mirror of globalization. Something I'm sure we all understand too well.

So, it is not only a problem in the production of masks, gloves and sanitizing products which were happily outsourced. The popes of liberalism have lured our societies into economical systems that do not only enlarge the difference between rich and poor, creating inequality. But we are also beginning to experience the practical consequences of its weakest points. True that we have not reached those same levels regarding food -yet. But that could also change if this situation turns to the worst. Which usually happens when the unforeseen or unexpected knocks at our door.

Is it time to learn our lessons?  Do we really want to?

Take care of yourselves, and try to nurture your sense of humor. It is, indeed, something that will be specially needy in the times to come.  
 
 
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Figment
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Re: World's getting paranoid?
Reply #21 - Apr 4th, 2020 at 4:22am
 
21st day. Still a long way ahead.

Meanwhile, a must read..

https://www.ft.com/content/19d90308-6858-11ea-a3c9-1fe6fedcca75?fbclid=IwAR37bEP...

Most probably you have already been in touch with some of his work; nevertheless it is worth sharing and spreading. We need many more voices like his, in the future that is right around the corner.

Please, take care of yourselves.
 
 
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