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Where is my recovery Point?????? (Read 13675 times)
ollie90680
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Where is my recovery Point??????
Mar 3rd, 2007 at 10:12am
 
Ok. That was to get your attention. I setup and started Ghost 10 on my Dell Dimension 3000 with a LaCie 250 GB NAS. Finally after many days of frustration and total lack of support from Symantic I was able to figure out that the reason why my backups would error at 4.193GB was that the LaCie had a FAT32 format.  This solved I split the backup into 2GB segments and everything was fine at 2AM last night when it was 90% complete and I went to bed exhausted. Got up this AM and found that my backup was not on the LaCie. It was nowhere. I am perplexed as to what happened to it.

But I am also confused about another little item. In "My Computer" my LaCie is mapped as Drive Z and it reports that the fS is NTFS not FAT32. How is this possible???? LaCie clearly states in the manual that it can be formatted either Ext3 or FAT32. It does not say anything about NTFS. Is this related to my disappearing backup?

This is the second time that my backup has disappeared and I am totally confused as to what could cause it.

My experience with Norton has soured me on what I always thought of as a fine company. I spent two days making calls only to be transferred from one rep to another always claiming that I did not have the right person. The last day I was on the phone for 3 hours and transferred four times. Apparently they are not interested in the goodwill of their customer base but are interested in the green that the customer base has with their subscription service.  It is a sad day when the industry acts in this manner.

 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #1 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 12:42pm
 
Sorry to hear of your "total lack of support from Symantec".  You're not alone.

I have not personally used the LaCie NAS, but the fact that it is a Network Attached Storage unit, I have some ideas that may help you discover the cause of the problem.

Regarding the format of it, be sure you are looking at the drive.  Using Windows Explorer, copy a small file to a folder on the NAS and then with Windows Explorer make sure you can open the file from the NAS and look at the properties of the NAS and confirm whether it is NTFS or FAT32.  If you don't have any other data on the NAS, I would reformat it as NTFS using the XP Disk Manager.  Do a quick format to save yourself time.

Look in the XP Event Viewer (My computer/right click/manage/Event Viewer) to see if there were any system or application errors during the time you were taking the backup.  My personal suspicion is that with the heavy network i/o activity during the backup, there was some network error.  I have used Ghost to backup to local area network locations, and know from experience that the network wiring and switch has to be SOLID and working 100%.

What is the IP address of your NAS?  Is it dynamic or static?  Try making it static so it never changes if there is a problem.  How long is the Ethernet cable(s)?  CAT5e or CAT6? 100mbps?

Do you have Norton AntiVirus worm detectection turned on?  Turn it off.  Look at any firewall logs.  Try it with them turned off.

After looking into all these things, create a new folder on the NAS called GhostBackups and define a new backup pointing to that folder.  Tell Ghost 10 to take a full independent backup.

Hopefully these ideas will give you clues as to where the problem is, but I would definitely suspect network error.  Also be sure and reformat to NTFS.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #2 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 1:52pm
 
I should have been less cryptic in my discussion I suppose. The LaCie is formatted as received from the factory as FAT32. I was being dropped with a network error because, I believe, that it was trying to write a block larger than 4GB into FAT32 which has a limit of 4GB. I never reformatted to NTFS even though "My Computer" is reporting that the FS is NTFS.  So when in Automatic mode it tries to write after exceeding the 4GB and fails. When I split it to smaller blocks of 2GB it was ok when I got to 90% done and went to bed.

I am reluctant to reformat to NTFS as I use LINUX and don't want to have any problems with the system. As FAT32 I have been able to save and retrieve files without problem. NTFS is not guaranteed to write properly under LINUX and so I am reluctant.

I have entered Admin in LaCie and confirmed that it is at FAT32. Admin only allows format as EXT3 or FAT32. If I format as ext3 will there be a problem with Windows XP? Normally Windows won't see a FS other than Windows i.e. FAT, FAT32, NTFS.

I do not have a busy network especially during the wee hours of the morning. Only thing that I had going on was this backup.

I am using DHCP and have been considering going static with the IP for the LaCie. It has changed once before but it doesn't appear to have done so last night. Still, static would remove one more condition.

Cables are 20-30 feet and I don't believe a problem. Believe that they are CAT5. Network says speed is 100MPS.

I use AVGFree for anti-virus and have for 5 years or more. No problems with it that I am aware of.

I have looked at logs before but can't say that I fully understand what I am reading. I will look again. I guess that I also need to look at the Norton logs as I didn't  do this yet.

I am, at this moment, trying to do a backup with Acronis TI. If this fails also then I have a commonality. This is what caused me to look at the LaCie parameters to begin with and findout that there was this 4GB limitation.

Still nothing has explained why XP is reporting the LaCie FS as NTFS and not FAT32. This is a real puzzle and maybe something to do with all of the problems.

Thanks for your post Ghost4me. I appreciate that feedback and assistance.




 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #3 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 2:07pm
 
In XP, try disconnecting z: and revmove the NAS cable from the network.  Reboot XP and re-connect the NAS and see if XP will re-detect and add the NAS again.  You definitely don't want XP thinking it is NTFS when it is FAT32.  

Run chkdsk z: /f from XP.  Even if you limit file sizes to less than 4gb (necessary for FAT32) you don't want XP updating the volume with NTFS structure.

I'm not sure about the LaCie, but make sure there aren't firmware updates or settings that are XP dependent.

The firewall suggestions were just to confirm that the network address is considered a trusted address and not being blocked.

Looking at the Event Viewer is just to see if any error is reported at the time of the failure.  Then use Google to research anything.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #4 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 2:59pm
 
Run chkdsk z: /f from XP.  Even if you limit file sizes to less than 4gb (necessary for FAT32) you don't want XP updating the volume with NTFS structure.

I hope this was obvious, but don't run chkdsk z: /f until both XP and the NAS agree as to the FAT32/NTFS issue.  You don't want XP fixing a FAT32 partition as if it is NTFS.

Maybe there are updated XP drivers for the NAS?
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #5 - Mar 3rd, 2007 at 10:26pm
 
I believe that there may be a firmware issue with the LaCie. I have written to LaCie as my unit appears to have been manufactured in 2004.

On the LaCie website it states "Not to change to NTFS as this will make the drive unwriteable".  Maybe I should just change it to EXT3 as this will only invalidate the USB according to LaCie.

The NAS is a seperate computer in the workgroup with an embedded linux OS. It isn't much linux but enough to handle the job it has to do. I don't see where drivers would be relevant for XP. LaCie may be using Samba as well.

All administration is handled via a webbrowser or through explorer.

It will be interesting to see what LaCie has to say about the issue. I didn't find anything in their faqs.
 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #6 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 9:12am
 
ollie90680 wrote on Mar 3rd, 2007 at 10:26pm:
The NAS is a separate computer in the workgroup with an embedded linux OS. It isn't much linux but enough to handle the job it has to do. I don't see where drivers would be relevant for XP. LaCie may be using Samba as well.


I reason I mentioned "drivers" is that if the NAS (essentially a hard drive with an IP address) requires some special code (i.e. driver) on XP to handle it properly, a driver would be relevant.

For example, print server boxes which sit on a local network and have printers connected to them usually require a "driver" on each pc to communicate with the print-server.

Bottom line though is that you definitely don't want XP thinking it is a NTFS volume when in fact it is a FAT32 one.  You would get data corruption.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #7 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 11:01am
 
We have solved the issue with failure to write because of LaCie but there is the other issue of why did I get 90% done, go to bed and find that my backup had disappeared. It had saved blocks of 3587MB up to 90% and they should have still been there but the files were missing. Does anyone have any ideas as to why the files would disappear after the job was done in Norton Ghost 10?
 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #8 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 12:43pm
 
When Ghost 10 got the error, it's possible that in the "cleanup" Ghost 10 deleted the portion(s) it had already written.  It would all be corrupted anyway until all segments are present.  I have seen that behavior with Ghost that if you click on the "cancel" while the backup is going on, there is a cleanup process invoked.

I wouldn't write to the device though until the formats match.  Is there some way within the LaCie box/software to run the equivalent of a chkdsk?  As you have explained it to me, it's not a simple hard drive on the network, but really a networked pc running linux, and linux is the one accepting the i/o requests from the workgroup and actually reading and writing to the hard drive.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #9 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 7:06pm
 
I suppose that it is possible that Ghost did receive an error other than the 4GB which had been solved by this time. If so then it is plausible that it might have erased all of the written files.

You are correct, LaCie is a linux computer running as a network HD. The only access is through webpages and they don't give access to chkdsk or any other commands. One can change the time, date, select format EXT3/FAT32, but nothing else that an administrator would expect to have access to. I am currently waiting for LaCie to get back to me about the NTFS/FAT32 issue but I have noticed several firmware upgrades that are available. I don't want to do that until I have cleared up their grammar discrepancies.  

Thanks again for your persistance in finding a solution to my problem.
 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #10 - Mar 4th, 2007 at 7:29pm
 
ollie90680 wrote on Mar 4th, 2007 at 7:06pm:
I suppose that it is possible that Ghost did receive an error other than the 4GB which had been solved by this time. If so then it is plausible that it might have erased all of the written files.

Besides the Windows XP Event Log, you should look at the Activity Log within Ghost 10 for anything that happened during the date and time of the backup.  That might help narrow down what type of error was occuring.

It's an interesting problem.  Never heard of a conflict with the format-type (NTFS or FAT32) of a networked resource.

Please post back when you figure it out. 
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #11 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 5:29pm
 
Well folks we now have the definative answer from LaCie regarding why XP recognizes FAT32 on the NAS as NTFS. Here it is in their words.

XP reports LaCie's FS as NTFS not FAT32
"XP cannot tell the actual format of the drive when connected over Ethernet, because it is masked by the embedded system of the EDmini. However, the limitations of the FAT32 format still exist (4GB file size limit).<..."

My answer to that, as a EE,  is that the product is not properly engineered for the purpose intended. They warn that one cannot change the FS to NTFS because the LaCie will not then write and that changing the FS to EXT3 will not allow one to use the USB interface.  Seems to me that they should have known the shortcomings and made adjustments for it within their internal system.  I have my work around by limiting the block size which I was able to figure out without their help. It took them five days to respond to my email request and so maybe next time I need a nas I will make my own.


 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #12 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 6:03pm
 
Thanks for the information.  I agree with you.  I wonder if this is just a LaCie design issue or a problem with all NAS devices.  If the software inside the NAS were smarter, seems like it could/should present the proper information to the PC's on the network.

With large video and other files today, 4gb seems like an unreasonable limitation.

But, bottom line, have you been able to create a Ghost image backup by limiting the file sizes to less than 4 gb?  Be sure to check the "verify" option in your creation definition.

How large of used space are you trying to backup?  I use Ghost 10 and can backup my c: and d: partitions (total about 20gb used) in about 15 minutes.  That's to an external usb2 drive.

You should also verify that you can boot from your Ghost recovery CD and it will see the backup image (in case you have a hard drive failure).  See if you can test restore just one file or test folder from the backup image.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #13 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 9:12pm
 
Actually I guess that I have something of a confession to make. I never did get Norton Ghost to work. I finally tried Acronis which was having the same problem as Norton i.e. 4GB problem. I solved it with Acronis and make my backup then cloned my hd so I could move up to a larger hd. I tried to make norton work but have not been able to get it to work. The best that I have done is to get to 90% where as I went to bed to only find out in the AM that it had erased the back up. I need to get back on the situation with Norton and get it fixed to. Not getting much help out of Norton with that.
     The NAS is a very slow solution to backup and now that i see what you are doing I may get a USB/Firewire solution instead of this LaCie as it is becoming my principal backup for this desktop. I was hoping to be able to backup all of the computers on the network; I have two macs and 3 PC's so it seemed a reasonable solution. However, I have to tell you I have been running 8 hours on Acronis for 50GB and Norton estimated 6 hours. Estimating my backup time on USB2 using your stats would result in about an hour or less. Sweet!
    I am going to give this Norton Ghost another chance and see what it takes to get it to save the backup. This time I will only backup one of the HD's. That should give a good test of its capabilities before I go whole hog on the whole computer.
     I can get over the 4GB limitation but that would mean going to EXT3. I guess with LaCie's administration masking the drive that would not be a problem for Windows (as you know Windows can't or won't see Linux FS's).  It would mean that I would not be able to use it on USB2 which I consider a safeguard should I decide to hook it up directly. I was hoping that LaCie would say "oh yeah you need our firmware upgrade" as I was looking at another LaCie unit. But now I think I will do the seperate USB2 route once I get settled. I saw elsewhere where LaCie was criticized for the slowness of their update. I'll get back to you about my success with NG 10.

 
 
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Re: Where is my recovery Point??????
Reply #14 - Mar 7th, 2007 at 9:26pm
 
ollie90680 wrote on Mar 7th, 2007 at 9:12pm:
    The NAS is a very slow solution to backup and now that i see what you are doing I may get a USB/Firewire solution instead of this LaCie as it is becoming my principal backup for this desktop. I was hoping to be able to backup all of the computers on the network; I have two macs and 3 PC's so it seemed a reasonable solution. However, I have to tell you I have been running 8 hours on Acronis for 50GB and Norton estimated 6 hours. Estimating my backup time on USB2 using your stats would result in about an hour or less. Sweet!


Looks like the turnaround time involved with tcpip and the NAS device and linux overhead is killing you.  Either firewire or usb2 should be much faster; only one operating system.  USB2 is theoretically 480mbps (compared to 100mbps for Ethernet).

I also backup another pc over a local 100mbps network to this pc using Ghost, and about 15gb used takes about 45 minutes including verify as I recall.  That's going from one pc over network to this pc's external shared usb2 drive.  Similar in concept to what you are attempting to do with the LaCie but different performance results.  Note, in my case everything is NTFS; no conflicts.

Good luck.
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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