Radified Community Forums - RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
May 5^th, 2007 at 1:04am

Hi,

I'm fairly new at computers, but here is something I learnt the hard way. This may be a little out of date. I have Norton SW Premier 2006, which I purchased because it had Ghost 10 which is stated to be compatible with *HardWare* RAID-0 and RAID-1. SW has been updated to include Save and Restore rather than Ghost. I'm not sure of other changes.

If you are using RAID on your computer, DO NOT attempt to use GoBack. I have HardWare RAID-0. GoBack was installed by default. There is (or was) no documentation to describe the horrors lying ahead. I attempted to "Go Back", and the GoBack interface appeared with no options other than to wait while the progress bar moved on. My HardDisks were spinning, the red light was on, and the fans were blowing like crazy.... FOR EIGHT HOURS! While this was going on, Symantec Support on the phone line were trying to calm me down, and advising to do nothing. After the eight hours, miraculously, my computer was back as it was twenty minutes before I started the GoBack. Under advice from Support, I decided to get rid of GoBack. This involves disabling it before uninstalling it. I was NOT told that the disabling process would tke ANOTHER EIGHT HOURS of my system steaming away at full speed.

The second danger is the bootable "Symantec Recovery Disk". It includes a number of diagnostics which I have not fully investigated. But I did try out the Disk Doctor which I used many many years ago on a Mac. It seems harmless... for the Unsuspecting. It looked at my two disks and adviced of an obscure error which it offered to fix. The error was, of course, that my disks were configured as a RAID Array, and the Disk Doctor was completely oblivious to this fact. I had forgotten to hit F6 and install the RAID Drivers. When I did it properly and hit F6, the Symantec Recovery Disk demanded an A: Drive (Floppy) which I don't have on my Laptop... so that was the end of that!

As I said earlier, Symantec have released newer versions of SystemWorks, and they may have solved (or. at least documented) these problems. I would be interested to hear if anyone has had experience with SystemWorks and RAID.

After learning the hard way about the F6 button, I was relieved that BartPE allows the integration of Mass Storage Controllers during the building of the bootable disk. And, after a brief foray into Vista RC1, I was glad that Drivers can be installed by media other than Floppies. I simply swapped a CD in and out.

As for GoBack.... Whoa! I'll never try that again! Shocked

edited: Added "HardWare" to references to RAID... not wishing to appear hypocritical when chastising others for failing to make the distinction between H/W and S/W RAIDs. Whoops! Embarrassed

IP Logged

El_Pescador

Übermensch

Offline

Thumbs Up!

Posts: 1605
Bayou Country, USA

Back to top

	Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers! Reply #1 - May 5^th, 2007 at 9:04am allanf wrote on May 5^th, 2007 at 1:04am: "... I'm fairly new at computers, but here is something I learnt the hard way (although it) may be a little out of date..." To the contrary, it is quite topical and I for one commend you for contributing the post *Pesky*
	IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #2 - May 5^th, 2007 at 9:25am

allanf

Thank for the *heads up* posting--some interesting *new* information there!

Quote:

I have Norton SW Premier 2006, .... SW has been updated to include Save and Restore rather than Ghost

Wasn't aware of that change!

Quote:

GoBack was installed by default.

GoBack has been around for awhile--in the past is was an *option* to install--but not installed by *default*--with older versions of Ghost (i.e. Ghost 2003)--if you used the Windows interface--I believe there is information that says there can be conflicts if GoBack is also installed and running--but I think the documentation is *hidden* in the *readme.txt* file somewhere!

Quote:

after a brief foray into Vista RC1, I was glad that Drivers can be installed by media other than Floppies. I simply swapped a CD in and out

Microsoft has finally improved that functionality!--can't believe it has taken them this long--hope this is on their final release of Vista!

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

Pleonasm

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1619

Back to top

	Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers! Reply #3 - May 5^th, 2007 at 10:30am Yes, the newest version of Norton SystemWorks Premier (NSWP) includes Norton Save and Restore (NSR) – but, it is version 1.0 and not 2.0. From speaking to Symantec Sales, NSWP will be bundled with NSR 2.0 starting in about September, 2007.
	ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea” IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #4 - May 5^th, 2007 at 11:26am

El_Pescador wrote on May 5^th, 2007 at 9:04am:

... I for one commend you for contributing the post

Hi Pesky, Thanks for the encouragement.

I would love to contribute more, but I may have revealed my entire stock of useful knowledge in just one post. Embarrassed

NightOwl wrote on May 5^th, 2007 at 9:25am:

Quote:

I have Norton SW Premier 2006, .... SW has been updated to include Save and Restore rather than Ghost

Wasn't aware of that change!

Hi NightOwl, I haven't seen the latest version of SystemWorks in action, but I checked for changes at the product overview Website and saw "Save and Restore" listed.
http://www.symantec.com/home_homeoffice/products/overview.jsp?pcid=sp&pvid=nswp

They seem to have dropped any indication of a version from the packaging. Huh

Quote:

I believe there is information that says there can be conflicts if GoBack is also installed and running--but I think the documentation is *hidden* in the *readme.txt* file somewhere!

There is a slight suggestion of possible trouble in the third [topic of the first] chapter of the User's Guide:

"What if Windows fails to start after installing Norton SystemWorks?

Occasionally, Windows won’t start after Norton SystemWorks is installed. If this occurs, restart your computer and turn off Norton GoBack....", and goes on to explain how to disable it.

Very vaguely, I recall having read or heard something about choosing one technology or the other: GoBack or Ghost. The readme.txt is not with me at the moment.

But I'm pretty certain the conflict was between GoBack and RAID. I heard the Support guy choke and almost fall off his chair when I mentioned RAID! Shocked

He couldn't point me in the direction of any public documentation tho'.

Quote:

Quote:

... after a brief foray into Vista RC1, I was glad that Drivers can be installed by media other than Floppies.

..... hope this is on their final release of Vista!

I believe it is... and thumb-drives (? I'm yet to find out what these are Embarrassed

) as well!

Regards, Al

edited: "third chapter of the user's guide" to "third topic of the first chapter..."

IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #5 - May 8^th, 2007 at 9:07pm

NightOwl wrote on May 5^th, 2007 at 9:25am:

GoBack has been around for awhile--in the past is was an *option* to install--but not installed by *default*--with older versions of Ghost (i.e. Ghost 2003)--if you used the Windows interface--I believe there is information that says there can be conflicts if GoBack is also installed and running--but I think the documentation is *hidden* in the *readme.txt* file somewhere!

From the Norton SystemWorks 2006 Premier Readme.txt.

Re Ghost and GoBack:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norton GoBack
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Norton GoBack adds an underlying safety net to the use of your computer.
However, it is not a replacement for a recommended backup system, such as
Norton Ghost. In many situations, Norton GoBack will be able to restore your
entire computer or a specific file that would otherwise be lost. However, this
ability should not be assumed. Norton GoBack's restorative ability is a
function of, among other things, the intensity of disk usage and the amount of
disk space allocated for tracking.

As far as I can tell, both products are installed by default. Selecting "Custom" installation, everything is pre-ticked. Selecting the alternative "Install Now" goes straight to installation ... no further questions or options. The Readme.txt is saying that one technology *does not* negate the need for the other. Quite the opposite of my vague recollection! Embarrassed

Re GoBack and RAID:
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Installing Norton GoBack on a multi-boot disk
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before installing any major application, including Norton GoBack, it's
always a good idea to backup your entire system.

You cannot install Norton GoBack on a multi-boot disk. If you are installing
Norton SystemWorks on a multi-boot disk, you must deselect Norton GoBack.

Norton GoBack is not compatible with some advanced features of
Windows 2000/XP that are usually associated with servers. Examples include
multiple processors, volume sets, dynamic disks, and striping.

When upgrading or changing operating systems, Norton GoBack
should first be disabled. Once disabled, the new operating
system should be installed or upgraded. Norton GoBack
should then be enabled again.

Hidden? OMG! That's practically invisible! The authors could have at least used the word "RAID", and *not* bundle the warning into a topic about Multi-boot Systems!! And there does not seem to be a clear disitinction be Software RAID and Hardware RAID!! Angry

I wonder how those using other Hardware RAIDs like Mirroring (RAID-1) have fared? Not a mention in the Readme.txt.

IP Logged

El_Pescador

Übermensch

Offline

Thumbs Up!

Posts: 1605
Bayou Country, USA

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #6 - May 8^th, 2007 at 10:59pm

allanf wrote on May 8^th, 2007 at 9:07pm:

"... And there does not seem to be a clear disitinction be Software RAID and Hardware RAID... I wonder how those using other Hardware RAIDs like Mirroring (RAID-1) have fared?..."

Lurking around the Symantec Ghost Solution Suite 1.1 corridors, I was delighted to see among the

'Symantec Ghost Imaging Tools'

that

'Windows XP Professional SP2'

was "kosher" and further that

'Hardware RAID only supported with Ghost32.exe in Pre-OS environment (MS WinPE or similar)'

. I interpret this to mean that if I am able to install a hardware RAID setup on my RAID-friendly Asus motherboards running XP Pro, then I can rely on my Reatogo-X-PE CD's Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 to handle Ghost operations when in the MS WinPE mode Roll Eyes

EP

IP Logged

dbird

Gnarly

Offline

Posts: 47

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #7 - May 8^th, 2007 at 11:53pm

ISTM there HAS to be a difference between h/w and s/w RAID. For example, if the OS is not running, there can be no s/w RAID. So, in that case a restore would break the array. That is recoverable, or at least should be, just by rebuilding the array, if it is a mirror.

Not sure how s/w handles striping. Seems like there would be zero/zip reason to do s/w RAID striping. Actually negative reason to do s/w striping, since it would be slower, and speedup is the only reason for striping in the first place.

If the RAID is in h/w, then ghost needs only a driver to see it and all is well.

Dave

IP Logged

dbird

Gnarly

Offline

Posts: 47

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #8 - May 8^th, 2007 at 11:58pm

Quote:

I interpret this to mean that if I am able to install a hardware RAID setup on my RAID-friendly Asus motherboards running XP Pro, then I can rely on my Reatogo-X-PE CD's Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 to handle Ghost operations when in the MS WinPE mode Roll Eyes

You will still need a driver in ghost if it doesn't already have it. I would guess that it does not have a driver built in. I have no experience with 8.2.

Dave

IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #9 - May 9^th, 2007 at 1:55am

dbird wrote on May 8^th, 2007 at 11:53pm:

If the RAID is in h/w, then ghost needs only a driver to see it and all is well.
Dave

I agree that this seems to be the case.

Booting into a Pre-installed Environment (PE) requires RAID controllers to load first. My experience is with BartPE; and incorporating Mass Storage Controllers such as RAID could not be easier. The File Management App in BartPE reads my two Hard Disks as a single volume (hardware RAID-0 Array). I assume Reatogo would be the same. F6 and a Floppy should work just as well.

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/drivers/

However, Symantec has the following to say. (Apologies for quoting the Article in full, but one minute it says you can't, and the next minute it describes how to try to get it working Undecided

)

Quote:

Ghost and RAID
Ghost is not compatible with computers that use RAID. That is, Symantec Ghost 8.x and earlier, and Norton Ghost 2003 and earlier, do not support RAID controllers on computers that are being imaged. In addition:
Ghost does not work with software level RAID.
Although Ghost might work in some limited circumstances with hardware level RAID, Symantec does not support using Ghost for cloning hardware level RAID drives.
Ghost does support cloning drives that have had RAID removed, such as after you break a mirrored set.

Ghost and hardware-level RAID systems
Although it is not a supported feature, Ghost can sometimes create and restore images to hardware level RAID systems if you load the appropriate DOS ASPI driver to support this. Load the DOS ASPI driver when you create the image file and again when you restore the image file. DOS ASPI drivers can usually be obtained from the RAID hardware manufacturer. For other ASPI driver information, see the document Information on ASPI drivers.

Notes on getting Ghost to work with hardware RAID systems
Use similar hardware: Restore the image file only to a computer that uses the same hardware as the source computer. Because the operating system needs the drivers for the array, the drives will be inaccessible on the destination computer unless the hardware is the same.
SCSI or IDE: Ghost's ability to work with RAID arrays is not dependent on whether the array uses SCSI drives or IDE drives.
Mirrored sets in Windows NT: To clone mirrored sets in Windows NT, break the mirror, run Ghost with the -NTIID switch ( -ntiid ), and then recreate the mirror using the Windows NT Disk Administrator. Note that duplexed disks are a type of mirrored set.
Mirrored sets in Windows 2000/XP: Symantec Ghost 7.5, 8.x, and Norton Ghost 2003 support cloning a mirrored partition in Window 2000 and Windows XP provided that the source partition is on a Dynamic Disk and the image is restored to a Basic Disk. The restored partition is not mirrored. See the document Ghost compatibility with Dynamic partitions.
Restore the partition rather than the disk: In some situations, Ghost may be able to restore a partition from a disk image when Ghost cannot restore the disk image.

http://entsupport.symantec.com/docs/n1999010613522725

It refers specificly to Ghost Versions 8.xx and 2003 and earlier. Later versions are compatible with certain levels of Hardware RAID. See:
http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/powerquest.nsf/0/5bcfd35465a9cfb58825714000...

At least this article distinguishes between Software and Hardware RAID, unlike the Readme.txt in NSW 2006 Premier. Angry

Pesky, if you are interested in either RAID-0 or RAID-5, Ghost 9 is compatible, and I believe Reatogo accepts a Ghost 9 PlugIn. Worth looking in to?! My SystemWorks 2006 Premier Disk has a folder called NSW2005 - an alternative for non-XP users? The readme.txt refers to Ghost 2003 Update 2, but I read somewhere that NSW2005 Premier actually contains Ghost 9. I am in the process of seeing if I can install 2005 (seems to be blocked for XP). I would like to try Ghost 9 with Reatogo.

IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #10 - May 9^th, 2007 at 2:25am

dbird wrote on May 8^th, 2007 at 11:53pm:

Not sure how s/w handles striping. Seems like there would be zero/zip reason to do s/w RAID striping. Actually negative reason to do s/w striping, since it would be slower, and speedup is the only reason for striping in the first place.
Dave

Dave,

Sorry to quote a long article. It refers to XP Pro's Software RAID, and is sourced from the Help File for the Microsoft Management Console.

Quote:

Using striped volumes
Striped volumes are created by combining areas of free space on two or more disks into one logical volume. Striped volumes use RAID-0, which stripes data across multiple disks. Striped volumes cannot be extended or mirrored, and do not offer fault tolerance. If one of the disks containing a striped volume fails, the entire volume fails. When creating striped volumes, it is best to use disks that are the same size, model, and manufacturer.

With a striped volume, data is divided into blocks and spread in a fixed order among all the disks in the array, similar to spanned volumes. Striping writes files across all disks so that data is added to all disks at the same rate.

Despite their lack of fault tolerance, striped volumes offer the best performance of all the Windows disk management strategies and provide increased I/O performance by distributing I/O requests across disks. For example, striped volumes offer improved performance when:

Reading from or writing to large databases.
Collecting data from external sources at very high transfer rates.
Loading program images, dynamic-link libraries (DLLs), or run-time libraries.
MS-DOS, Windows 95, Windows 98, Windows Millennium Edition, Windows NT 4.0, Windows XP Home Edition, and other operating systems lacking dynamic storage capability cannot recognize any striped volumes created by Windows 2000 or Windows XP Professional. Therefore, if you create a striped volume on a dual-boot computer, that volume becomes unusable by those operating systems.

For instructions on creating a striped volume, see Create a striped volume.

It sounds very similar to Hardware RAID.

We are in agreemnet that it is important to distinguish between H/W and S/W RAID for the reason you described. To emphasise the point, as far as I am aware, ***No version of Ghost is compatible with Software RAID.***

My anger is directed at the authors of the previously-mentioned Readme.txt which fails to make the distinction. The closer I look at the text, the more it seems that they were referring only to Software RAID; in which case, there is no warning at all for Hardware RAID.

Regards, Al

edited: added "Pro" to "XP Pro's Software RAID"

IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #11 - May 9^th, 2007 at 4:34am

Just a follow up after re-reading my previous post (Reply #9).

allanf wrote on May 9^th, 2007 at 1:55am:

However, Symantec has the following to say. ...
Quote:

Ghost and RAID

...

Notes on getting Ghost to work with hardware RAID systems

....

Mirrored sets in Windows NT: To clone mirrored sets in Windows NT, break the mirror, run Ghost with the -NTIID switch ( -ntiid ), and then recreate the mirror using the Windows NT Disk Administrator. Note that duplexed disks are a type of mirrored set.
Mirrored sets in Windows 2000/XP: Symantec Ghost 7.5, 8.x, and Norton Ghost 2003 support cloning a mirrored partition in Window 2000 and Windows XP provided that the source partition is on a Dynamic Disk and the image is restored to a Basic Disk.
.....

http://entsupport.symantec.com/docs/n1999010613522725

...

At least this article distinguishes between Software and Hardware RAID ....

Edited:

...... Or so it might appear! .....

Hardware RAID? To me, the above Article appears flawed as well. The highlighted text is referring to Software RAID.

BTW, my quote in Reply #10 from the Help File of the Microsoft Management Console might only be found in XP Pro. I understand that XP Home does not support Dynamic Disks, i. e. MS's Software RAID.

IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #12 - May 9^th, 2007 at 9:10am

allanf

Quote:

However, Symantec has the following to say. (Apologies for quoting the Article in full, but one minute it says you can't, and the next minute it describes how to try to get it working

I think what Symantec was indicating is that it has no intention (desire?) to engineer Ghost to work with all the various RAID controllers and setups--so they are saying they offer no *technical* support, and make no claims that their software is *meant* to work with RAID systems.....but, if your system properly supports the RAID function in DOS--then Ghost may work just fine for you--Symantec just doesn't want to be held responsible if it doesn't work!

All flavors of Windows, including the WinPE installation CD for various Windows OS's--and the Symantec Recover Disk for Ghost 9/10/Save & Restore require that the Windows RAID software for your particular RAID controller be available (must use F6 if the driver is not integrated into the disc to begin with!).

I have two systems, one on an Intel based motherboard with a built-in Promise RAID controller, and another based on a AMD chipset and has a Highpoint RAID controller. I use RAID 1 mirroring on both systems. In DOS (Windows independent--therefore no F6 Windows driver is required) the RAID chipsets support DOS access to the RAID array through the BIOS integration of the RAID controller and the rest of the system.

All flavors of DOS Ghost work fine for me on these two systems--I have never tried RAID 0 stripping because I'm not wanting to increase performance (RAID 0) at the expense of reliability (RAID 1)--when you use RAID 0 stripping you increase you chance of data loss by at least double because your HDD system now has at least two HDD's that have your data spread across both--and the array is interdependent on both HDD's--if one fails, you loose everything on both--better have some type of backup that is reliable!!!

I have never used *GoBack*--so can not comment on whether is works with my RAID setup or not.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

allanf

Radmeister

Offline

Hey Rad! What a cool site!

Posts: 54

Back to top

Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers!
Reply #13 - May 9^th, 2007 at 10:35am

Hi NightOwl,

There seems to be a blurred distinction between the terms "not supported" and "not compatible". Usually, I take unsupported to mean "might work, but if it doesn't, don't ring up complaining", and incompatible to mean "doesn't work, full stop". But I see that the Article does define the term "not compatible" as meaning "not supported", rather than its regular useage.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/incompatible

NightOwl wrote on May 9^th, 2007 at 9:10am:

... when you use RAID 0 stripping you increase you chance of data loss by at least double because your HDD system now has at least two HDD's that have your data spread across both ...

Yes, I have read that RAID-0 doubles the chance of one HHD failing. It doesn't make sense to me... but, then again, I failed stats. I came out of the exam thinking I'd nailed it! It must be a certain part of the brain....

Anyway, the risk is why I'm here. Ghost 10 failed to write to DVDs, so I'm looking for alternatives.

Quote:

In DOS (Windows independent--therefore no F6 Windows driver is required) the RAID chipsets support DOS access to the RAID array through the BIOS integration of the RAID controller and the rest of the system.

I think I may have stumbled across a DOS version of Ghost, among others, in my NSW 2006 Premier Installation Disk. If I have time, I'll give DOS a shot. Thanks.

IP Logged

El_Pescador

Übermensch

Offline

Thumbs Up!

Posts: 1605
Bayou Country, USA

Back to top

	Re: RAID and SystemWorks... some dangers! Reply #14 - May 9^th, 2007 at 12:54pm allanf wrote on May 9^th, 2007 at 10:35am: "... I think I may have stumbled across a DOS version of Ghost, among others, in my NSW 2006 Premier Installation Disk..." http://radified.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1170849092/20#20
	IP Logged

	Welcome, Guest. Please Login