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-PWD Switch (Read 5838 times)
Pleonasm
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-PWD Switch
Sep 10th, 2007 at 10:33am
 
(1) What level of security does the -PWD (password) switch provide in Norton Ghost 2003?  Is it simply a file access control mechanism - or, are the contents of such an image encrypted?  If the latter, what algorithm is employed?

(2) Does the answer to Question #1 change for Ghost Solution Suite 2.0?

(3)  If the -PWD switch in Ghost 2003 or GSS 2.0 doesn’t provide encryption-level security, are there other DOS-based image backup utilities that do have this capability?

In advance, thank you for your assistance.
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
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nbree
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #1 - Sep 10th, 2007 at 5:39pm
 
Quote:
Is it simply a file access control mechanism - or, are the contents of such an image encrypted?  If the latter, what algorithm is employed?

I'd consider it an access mechanism; it does obfuscate the image file content, but not in a cryptographically strong way.

This particular feature very nearly cut short my involvement with Binary; I don't recall the exact sequence of events, but sometime around the time I was brought over this feature had been newly developed. Let's just say there weren't any security experts there at the time (not that I would claim to be either, given that I knew Peter Gutmann), and I made the point rather forcefully by demonstrating its' weakness in the classic way.

Which is not a way to make friends... but it did stop the feature being described as "encryption", in public or at least within my earshot.

[ Raymond Chen has the "Social Skills of a Thermonuclear Device" thing going on. In my case, my lack of tact earned me the description in the early 90's of "a minefield of information". ]

Quote:
(2) Does the answer to Question #1 change for Ghost Solution Suite 2.0?

No, but then it really only exists in the corporate product at all - any version - only to read images taken with consumer versions; you'll note we don't support passworded images in the management console and I have made a point of keeping it that way. I'd really like to remove the option completely.

The sanctioned replacement for that feature is the Symantec Client Migration system, and in 2.0 it's possible to use that to create a passworded migration package that I am told uses AES-256.
 
 
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NightOwl
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #2 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 8:33am
 
Pleonasm

So, based on nbree's answer--the password is mostly a file access control mechanism rather than encryption.

But, you might look into the switch *-lockinfo* and *-locktype=Type*--which may allow use of the image only on a specified machine.  See here:  Ghost 2003 User Guide


This switch appears not to function *equally* on all machines--seems to depend on what information flows between the BIOS and the Ghost software--my system does not report most of the *Type* information for use with this switch  Sad !
 

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Pleonasm
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #3 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 3:03pm
 
Thank you, Nbree and NightOwl, for your posts.

Nbree, I would encourage Symantec to reconsider the removal of the -PWD functionality, and to also pursue the addition of an “-AES” switch in GSS 2.0 that would actually encrypt the contents of the image file.  As the trend for full disk encryption increases (e.g., see Rapidly Expanding Use of Encryption to Protect Sensitive Data), it becomes important to encrypt the image of an encrypted partition - otherwise, the security benefit provided by the full disk encryption is compromised.  Norton Ghost 10 and 12, of course, provide this capability, so why not GSS 2.0?  And (who knows?) advancing this cause might accelerate your career, too!

In the absence of the ability to encrypt the image file during its creation, can you recommend any DOS or BartPE compatible tools for encrypting/decrypting a Ghost 2003/GSS 2.0 image file after it has been produced?
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
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nbree
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #4 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 4:37pm
 
Pleonasm wrote on Sep 11th, 2007 at 3:03pm:
\Nbree, I would encourage Symantec to reconsider the removal of the -PWD functionality, and to also pursue the addition of an “-AES” switch in GSS 2.0 that would actually encrypt the contents of the image file.

That's not my call to make, but I should explain my dislike of this some more. Implementing a genuinely strong password-based encryption method is so trivial to do that it is barely worth commenting on. The problem is that such a mechanism is only useful in personal situations, and even then only to a fairly small and specialized section of personal customers.

Designing a mechanism that makes sense in a centrally managed environment means doing something much, much more elaborate involving machine identity, and dealing with appropriate escrow and recovery mechanisms. That is a beast of a different kind entirely, both technically and in terms of what people actually do to use it.

It's been something I've put a lot of thought into over the years, and in a technical sense I've now managed to implement pretty much of the necessary component pieces in the client/server environment, but it will probably take a considerable amount of time to introduce the necessary process changes in the management user interface.

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Norton Ghost 10 and 12, of course, provide this capability, so why not GSS 2.0?

Politics and finance, which trump everything else. Despite the fact that we're no longer under the direct management of our former competitors from PowerQuest, this is a consumer-only feature and we still have to choose our battles carefully.

We're actually been reorganized under the Altiris folks, which I think is hugely positive, but they have no consumer products and indeed work with larger corporate customers than we've really targeted before.

Quote:
In the absence of the ability to encrypt the image file during its creation, can you recommend any DOS or BartPE compatible tools for encrypting/decrypting a Ghost 2003/GSS 2.0 image file after it has been produced?

Not particularly, since there are literally hundreds and I don't have any use for any of them to have spent any time trying to determine which are any good.

I'll add some notes as to what the SMBIOS locking features actually do when I have a little more time.
 
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #5 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 6:02pm
 
Nbree, that’s a good point about implementing AES encryption for a personal user versus for a corporation.  While the motivation for my question was based upon the former, I can see that adding encryption in a centrally managed environment involves a high level of complexity -- which, frankly, I was neglecting to consider.
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
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nbree
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #6 - Sep 11th, 2007 at 7:15pm
 
Actually, I've remembered that the last time I did have to do anything where I needed to encrypt a file (we're talking >15 years ago) I used the original PGP freeware and these days I'd use GPG. That's partly because I wasn't encrypting for personal storage but for secure distribution, and PGP's web-of-trust model was precisely what I needed at the time.

Another thing about embedding encryption features in products - aside from the complexity and compatibility drag it introduces like any feature - is that it does come with a complex web of regulatory requirements. This isn't a big deal for individuals but it's a very very big headache for multinational corporations; you might like to peruse the various regulatory classifications, which Symantec has to not just file lots of paperwork for with various governments, but publish so that anyone who uses our products can figure out what the regulatory impact on them might be of using our products.

There are a number of very very fine points that these things turn on which differ in various countries and address the rather different needs of various governments and agencies with respect to individuals (or corporations). Every project we have to spend time on this helping Legal prepare correct filings - and given the penalties for incorrect filings, it is something that we do take seriously. There are lots of things developers have the freedom to do on their own initiative - implementing an encryption-related feature, even having it present in the object code but not documented, is not one of them.
 
 
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nbree
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Re: -PWD Switch
Reply #7 - Sep 12th, 2007 at 4:23am
 
NightOwl wrote on Sep 11th, 2007 at 8:33am:
This switch appears not to function *equally* on all machines--seems to depend on what information flows between the BIOS and the Ghost software--my system does not report most of the *Type* information for use with this switch  Sad !

Yeah. Basically, these switches read the SMBIOS data tables which are defined by the DTMF consortium, the specifications for which can be got from here.

Manufacturers degree of implementation varies wildly. For instance, Dells that implement SMBIOS have many of the table data read from flash memory that can be set by their utilities. This tends to result in strange consequences; for instance, some Dell manufacturing processes end up burning identical data to the flash memory, including identical machine serial numbers and the UUID which is "guaranteed" by the specification to be unique to the hardware may also be shared by all the machines from the same run.

Other manufacturers do other things that are legal but tricky; almost all manufacturers put the SMBIOS data tables in memory in the same BIOS areas in the E0000-FFFFF where the anchor table is. IBM xSeries machines don't, which is perfectly spec-legal but takes some extra finesse in deal with addressing the physical memory location inside a DPMI DOS extender compared to the technique other manufacturers use.

Most of the big-name vendors have system BIOSes that generate all the data, and do it accurately; some motherboard vendors have BIOSes with the anchor tables but virtually none of the data is populated.

Anyway, because some manufacturers do let this be reprogrammed it's not entirely suitable as a security measure. VMWare is another way of spoofing this since although the SMBIOS data provided inside the virtual machine isn't completely reprogrammable, the machine UUID is able to be set by simply hand-editing the VMX file.

The BIOS lock feature was really intended primarily for OEMs to use the OEM Kit to produce recovery images that were bound to their hardware, not as a security thing as such but because they needed to do this to meet Microsoft's requirements for them to be able to use the cheaper OEM builds of Windows.
 
 
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