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Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations? (Read 23946 times)
Brian
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #45 - Apr 27th, 2011 at 4:09pm
 
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voximan wrote on Apr 27th, 2011 at 9:12am:
Regardless, though, when doing Disk-to-Disk copying, you must not allow the system to boot back into Windows with both physical drives still attached anyway.


I think we differ because I don't make BIOS changes before of after the clone process so the new HD remains the slave. So for me, booting back into Windows with both physical drives still attached is no problem. I think you are using the BIOS to make the new HD the boot drive and I agree that would be a problem if you then booted with both HDs attached. If it happens the new HD will not fully load into Windows because of the drive letter issue. It is easy to fix in WinXP by zeroing the Disk Signature. In Win7 the fix is a little more complicated. You have to zero the Disk Signature and do two Win7 Startup Repairs. Instead of the Startup Repairs you can do a BCD Edit in BootIt. This is much faster than the  Startup Repairs.
 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #46 - Apr 27th, 2011 at 10:54pm
 
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Quote:
Possibly, the reason you're being so perplexed about the possibility of my G2003 automatically booting straight back into Windows after a Disk-to-Disk operation is partly because I've perhaps not qualified that statement properly.

Ah....*the rest of the story!*  Now I understand what you have been talking about.  But, that's the behavior of the BIOS--and not DOS or Ghost!

My oldest system did the same thing--if *Ctrl-Alt-Del* was used (a *warm re-boot*), then the POST (Power On Self Test) was by-passed--and that included being able to enter the BIOS.  You might find that if you use the *Reset* button (not the Power button), than you might be able to force the system to do a full POST, and you can then enter the BIOS without having to power down the system completely with the *Power Button* (a *cold re-boot*).  My newer systems do the full POST regardless of whether I use the *Ctrl-Alt-Del*, Reset button, or the Power button--I get the option to enter the BIOS under any of those options.  So, it all depends on the BIOS that's in use on a particular system.

Quote:
Now do you understand?

Well, sort of--I still do not know why, in your situation, you need to enter the BIOS after cloning to an attached USB external HDD.  You seem to indicate that something had been changed in the BIOS:

Quote:
once you've safely put G2003 DOS to the A: prompt, then remove the destination drive. Then power up the PC once more, this time forcing it to enter the BIOS so that the drive(s) can be reconfigured back to normal and the boot order also put back to normal.

Did you make changes in the BIOS before doing the cloning?  If *yes*--why?

I usually have the *default* boot order set in the BIOS as 1st boot device = floppy drive, 2nd boot device = CD-ROM drive, and 3rd boot device = internal HDD.  If no floppy is found, it looks for a bootable optical disc, and if that's not found, then the system boots from the HDD that has been set as the boot HDD.

On my newer systems, one can press one of the *F* keys (usually F8 or F12) and bring up a Boot Device Menu that allows for a one time temporary boot device selection if I want to change the boot device for this one time boot from what's been set in the BIOS--so, I don't have to make any changes in the BIOS.
 

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NightOwl
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #47 - Apr 27th, 2011 at 11:27pm
 
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Well, as indicated in the last few posts, you are not actually experiencing *automatic* re-boots to Windows after using Ghost--and, you are not using the Windows based Ghost interface that *automatically* closes down Windows, boots to the *virtual DOS partition*, performs the Ghost procedure, and then *automatically* re-boots to Windows.

But, for completeness, I want to explain the reason for asking about the presence of a floppy drive, and why I wanted to know if you were actually using the Windows Ghost interface, or not.

One of our moderators, El Pescador, has a preference for using the Windows 2003 Ghost interface.  And, for the reasons you have mentioned, did not want his system to *automatically* re-boot to Windows after doing a *disk > to disk* cloning procedure ( he did not want to re-boot to Windows with two *identical* HDDs present on the system--primarily, if he had both HDDs hooked up directly to the motherboard--not necessarily hooked up to an external USB HDD enclosure--and, he was not concerned about the BIOS boot order being changed, or wishing to re-enter the BIOS after cloning).

So, he developed the technique of making sure the floppy drive was listed as the first boot device in the BIOS.  He would then set up the cloning procedure in the Windows Ghost interface, allow Windows to shut down and re-boot to DOS, Ghost loaded and the procedure began.  He would then put a blank floppy disk in the floppy drive--he could then *walk away* from the system and let it perform the cloning without further user observation or intervention (for now). 

When the cloning was done, the system closed out DOS Ghost, and the system attempted to re-boot *automatically* to Windows.  But, because the 1st boot device was the floppy drive, and the drive had a blank floppy disk in it, the system would error out saying something to the effect *Non-System Disk--Please Replace with a System Disk*.  And the system halted waiting for user intervention and Windows was not able to be re-booted *automatically*--and thus two *identical* HDDs were not presented to Windows to deal with.

When he came back, he would power down the system, remove the destination cloned HDD for safe-keeping, and then booted the system back to Windows.

So, you could use that technique--if you were using the Windows Ghost interface for *disk > to disk* cloning, and you needed to avoid the *automatic* re-boot to Windows.

But, again, that was not the problem you were experiencing.



 

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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #48 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 1:18am
 
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Quote:
If you think you might want to get a Quadra....

Not really the reason I asked about your La Cie external USB HDD!

Quote:
bear in mind that you might be taking a chance with one or more of those interfaces working properly with G2003. Just because my 500GB USB model works with G2003, it doesn't automatically follow that the Quadra will, because manufacturers have a habit of tweaking and re-designing interfaces.

Precisely the *problem*!

Quote:
Being a permanently-enclosed drive, one that you're not meant to ever remove from its casing

Probably, almost no enclosure is actually *permanently-enclosed*--perhaps that's what the manufacturer would like you to think, but, it ain't necessarily so......

Quote:
Perhaps what's more important to me is that its USB interface is compatible with G2003 Build 793.

Now, that's the *important* fact--and why I'm asking about your enclosure!

Quote:
the type of drive is somewhat immaterial to me


You need to *think more outside the box*, or is that *outside the enclosure*--or, should that be *inside the enclosure*--would that make it *thinking more inside the box*?!  Hmmmm.........

So, here's the deal......

My first USB external enclosure was a 40 GB Iomega drive (included Ghost 2003--this is how I got started using Ghost back in 2002!).  After about a year I got an Adaptec enclosure that I had to supply my own HDD for it.  It said it could handle up to 1 TB PATA HDDs.  That Adaptec enclosure did not look much different from the Iomega enclosure--but there were no obvious screws to open the Iomega.

Finally discovered that the screws were *hidden* under the glued on rubber feet.  The Iomega was now *out of warranty*, so I popped it open and there was a Seagate 40 GB PATA HDD.  Well, I tried a 60 GB HDD in it and it worked fine.  Tried an 80 GB HDD and it worked fine.  Then 120 GB HDD--still fine.  Then 160 GB HDD--that was a *no-go*!  The 160 GB HDD size was now reported incorrectly both in Windows and DOS!  So, the Iomega had a size limit of greater than 120 GB, but less than 160 GB--probably has the 128 GB size limitation in its logic chip. 

The Adaptec handles the 160 GB PATA HDD just fine.  I have replaced HDDs for this enclosure many times.

My point--you have an enclosure that probably has an internal SATA interface and it's a 500 GB HDD.  You already know the enclosure works with that SATA HDD with USB 2.  You want to use a 1 TB SATA HDD on USB 2.  No guarantees, but there's a good chance that the internal workings of that enclosure will handle a 1 TB SATA HDD.  If it does, then the only thing you need to do is replace that 500 GB SATA HDD with your 1 TB HDD in that enclosure, and you are probably good to go without any additional purchase!  Of course, it won't be a *docking station*--and I think you specifically said you don't want an *enclosure* type solution--but, it's likely to be compatible with SATA and USB 2!

Most likely, the only thing that will happen if it can not handle the larger size HDD is it will report the wrong size similar to what happened with my Iomega unit.

Is this what you have?:  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822154205

Here's what's available now--1 TB and 2 TB drives:  http://www.lacie.com/products/product.htm?id=10270

How to open La Cie enclosures--I think the last one is probably most like yours: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax390l2A-AY&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOAgmWrH_bw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yv7hLsFSeEQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kncUosYp0HI&feature=related

You will have to decide what your comfort level is as far as opening the La Cie up, your willingness to *void* the warranty (if any at this time), and if you're willing to risk any negative effects it might have on the 1 TB HDD--but, I suspect those are very unlikely!

But, if the eSATA works out okay--well, then you probably are not interested in the 1 TB SATA HDD in a La Cie USB 2 enclosure!
 

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Brian
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #49 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 4:44am
 
I've just done some tests on Disk to Disk cloning with Ghost 2003. I'm afraid Pesky's trick isn't needed. You can boot from the old HD as many times as you like with the new HD still installed. If you look in the registry of the new HD, no drive letter has been assigned to the OS partition and when the old HD is eventually removed, the new HD boots normally. I only tested with WinXP, not Win7.

I did Disk to Disk cloning where the target HD was unallocated space or already partitioned. The results were the same. It is interesting that Ghost 2003 zeroes the Disk Signature on the target HD during the clone procedure so when you boot the old HD after the clone has completed you aren't booting with two HDs that have the same Disk Signature.

Another cloning Old Wive's Tale exposed.

 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #50 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 11:03am
 
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Brian

Quote:
Another cloning Old Wive's Tale exposed.

Well, that confirms my suspicion that Ghost 2003's default behavior of blanking the destination's disk ID probably eliminated the problem of OS corruption if two *identical* HDDs were seen by a WinNT based OS immediately after *disk > to disk* cloning.  Thanks for the testing and reporting your results!

But, it probably wasn't a *Wives's Tale*.  I think up to version Ghost 2002--the disk ID was not being blanked by Ghost--so the corruption probably did actually occur--the Ghost folks just finally *fixed it*!  But, as is often the case, Symantec technical writers are not frequently up-to-date.  They probably continued to *cut and paste* information from one version to another, and were not informed about the engineering changes  Roll Eyes  , so, what's new about that  Wink !

 

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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #51 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 11:57am
 
NightOwl and Brian,

Thanks for your latest inputs, especially yours, NightOwl.

I've now been able to test my eSATA setup and am pleased to report that Ghost DOS definitely sees the Samsung drive. Indeed, I've taken it to the stage where it asks me 'Start the Cloning?'. So, thanks NightOwl for giving me that idea about using an eSATA PCI bracket. The only reason I hadn't twigged that one myself was my comparative ignorance of eSATA.

The procedures I've evolved for doing Disk-to-Disk cloning and for also doing Partition-to-Imaging are now well-tested for my particular setup and so I see no reason to now start fiddling with them and experimenting any further, especially as I'm pushed for time. I've no desire to install the Windows form of Ghost. It's unnecessary for my setup. Using just the floppy disc (Bootdisk), all that I need to do now gets done.

As far as my recollection serves me, with the PATA drives that I used to clone, after performing the clone, I could immediately physically replace the source drive with the destination drive and the destination drive would boot as per the former; there were no tweaks or mods to then perform. Driveletters of the various partitions were preserved. The only unanticipated occurrence was a boot sector query that came up onscreen, but it was just a matter of agreeing to its proposition and the booting continued successfully into Windows. The message never recurred. My notes at the time suggest that this was something to do with "unspecified hardware settings, but may have ensued as a result of the disparity between the serial nos. and firmware versions of the two drives". Also, with PATA drives, in some circumstances, the drive could have required temprary re-jumpering to Master, in order to fully boot. I'd also observed that when then testing a destination PATA drive as a Primary Slave, the bootup was a lot slower than was the case with the source drive. However, this was corrected when the destination drive was then rightly used as Primary Master.

All rather confusing, I think. That was PATA, anyway, not SATA, so I've no idea whether I'll get anything comparable happening when, in due course, I clone my SATA drive.

Again, I think it all illustrates that no two systems seem to work identically. There are lots of variables involved. It's a matter of finding what works for you.



 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #52 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 12:59pm
 
For those using the virtual partition to do their cloning, you can use the Create Virtual Partition option from the Windows gui, to achieve the same control over the reboot, as with a boot floppy.

Doing this, also makes Gdisk & Ghstwalk available.

Just my 2 cents.
 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #53 - Apr 28th, 2011 at 4:35pm
 
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More tests. After a Disk to Disk clone I noted the Disk Signature on the new HD was zeroed. I gave the new HD the same Disk Signature as the old HD and booted the old HD for the first time. After a restart the Disk Signature on the new HD was noted to be different (changed by WinXP). A few more boots were made from the old HD but the partition signatures in the new HD remained zeroed. The old HD was removed and the new HD booted normally.

Clever Ghost 2003. By zeroing the Disk Signature, the partition signatures were zeroed and they remained zeroed until the first boot from the new HD.
 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #54 - May 1st, 2011 at 11:46am
 
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Quote:
Disk Signature on the new HD was noted to be different (changed by WinXP). A few more boots were made from the old HD but the partition signatures in the new HD remained zeroed.

I'm going to have to claim *ignorance* here--is that something new  Roll Eyes ?!  I know about the *Disk Signature*--but I have to admit I'm not sure what the *partition signatures* refer to.

When you booted from the *source HDD*, the *destination HDD* was given a new *Disk Signature*, but the partitions were not given new *partition signatures?  Were you able to access the partitions when booted from the *source HDD*?  If *yes*, what role is being played by the *partition signatures*?

Is the *partition signature* the same as the *Volume Serial Number* that you see if you do a *directory* command in DOS?

But, if you remove the *source HDD* and then boot from the *destination HDD*, now the *partition signatures* get assigned?  Again, what's the function of the *partition signatures* that explain that behavior?
 

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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #55 - May 1st, 2011 at 12:04pm
 
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Quote:
For those using the virtual partition to do their cloning, you can use the Create Virtual Partition option from the Windows gui

Interesting!  I've not used that Window's Ghost 2003 interface *feature* before--found under the *Ghost Advanced* menu item on the left side of the Ghost GUI.  Looking at the User Guide, looks like you have to manually run the *ghreboot.exe* program to switch back to the Windows partition from the *virtual partition*.

Quote:
Doing this, also makes Gdisk & Ghstwalk available

Don't you have to add those programs to the *virtual partition folder* in order to have those available in the virtual partition--they're not *automatically* available--correct?

You might get a similar effect if you use the *Run Ghost Interactively* found under that same *Ghost Advanced* menu option.  It's been a long time since I experimented with that option--can't remember for sure, but I think you have to manually tell Ghost to re-boot to the Windows partition  when done using that options as well.
 

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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #56 - May 1st, 2011 at 12:11pm
 
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Quote:
I've now been able to test my eSATA setup and am pleased to report that Ghost DOS definitely sees the Samsung drive. Indeed, I've taken it to the stage where it asks me 'Start the Cloning?'

We're all waiting to hear your report on whether eSATA has worked out for you!

What procedure(s) did you do to prep for cloning, doing the cloning, and then powering down and disconnecting after cloning?

Any errors or problems encountered?
 

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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #57 - May 1st, 2011 at 6:03pm
 
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NightOwl wrote on May 1st, 2011 at 11:46am:
*partition signatures*


TeraByte has a script that can show the drive letter in the partition signature of an offline OS. (setwindl.tbs)

Dan Goodell has a web page explaining Partition Signature so rather than more typing....

See "How does Windows XP remember drive letters? "

http://www.goodells.net/multiboot/partsigs.shtml

NightOwl wrote on May 1st, 2011 at 11:46am:
Were you able to access the partitions when booted from the *source HDD*?If *yes*, what role is being played by the *partition signatures*?

Yes. The new XP partition had a drive letter assigned by old XP. I think F: in my case. Files and folders can be viewed. The partition signature for this partition is in the registry of old XP. When the old HD is removed and the new HD is booted on its own, partition signatures are assigned and new XP becomes C: drive. The booting OS assigns the drive letters.

 
 
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Re: Planning to clone a whole SATA drive: any recommendations?
Reply #58 - May 4th, 2011 at 8:56am
 
nightowl, you are correct, "Run Ghost Interactively" is similar to "Create Virtual Partition".

When you select that option, you are prompted to browse to a folder, from where files are automatically copied to the partition.

Yes, Ghreboot must also be in that folder.

If you slipped up, FDISK will bail you out.
 
 
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