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Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD? (Read 20449 times)
Big_Al
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Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am
 
                                     December 15, 2013



Guys/Gals,

   It's been a while since my last post and I've had a bunch

of changes in my computer.


My present setup:

Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit with an ASRock P67 PRO3 (B3) MoBo

that has a UEFI BIOS, Intel Core i5-2500K and 16 Gigs of

Corsair Vengeance RAM all in a Cooler Master HAF 932 case.

My C, D and E partitions are on a 120GB SSD NTFS with a MBR.

I installed Windows 7 on a pre-partitioned C, so no hidden

"System Partition".

My present STORAGE HDD is a 2TB Toshiba with MBR partitioned

this way:

F is      1.7 TB's Set As Fat32

G is        1 GB's Set As Fat32

H is        5 GB's Set As Fat32

I is        4 GB's Set As NTFS

J is       30 GB's Set As Fat32

K is       20 GB's Set As Fat32

L is       50 GB's Set As Fat32

M is       50 GB's Set As Fat32


I recently purchased a Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 3TB HDD

which I have yet to open until this issue is resolved.

The HDD HAS to be set as GPT to use all of the space.

It will be partitioned exactly as above except for the

F Drive.  It will be 2.63 TB's Set As NTFS.


I have been a Ghost user since version 6.

I now use it with DOS Bootable CDs (Thanks to NightOwl) I

make with custom Autoexec.bat files I write, never Windows.

My latest Ghost is v11.5.1.2269, which I found out from

Symantec has issues with GPT.

When I load my "Make C" CD, it loads Ghost, makes an image

of my C Drive and stores it on my E Drive as "Newest.gho".

It then CRC checks (verifies) the image and then (if the

image passes inspection) shows a black screen.

At that screen, I remove my Bootable CD and reboot into

Windows.

When I load my "Restore C" CD, it loads Ghost, goes to the

E Drive, finds "Newest.gho" and overwrites the C Partition.

If I want to clone a partition, I load my "Manual Ghost" CD,

it loads Ghost and I then select a partition on the "Source"

HDD and then find the proper sized empty partition on the

"Destination" HDD and tell Ghost to have at it.

If the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after

cloning, the destination is now Fat32.

Can ANY software do the above with a GPT disk as source and

an MBR disk as destination and vice/versa?


I await your reply.

Big Al
 
 
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Brian
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #1 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 4:44am
 
@
Big_Al

I assume you would like to image/clone from a boot disk rather than from Windows. Image for Linux will work with your system. Don't be concerned about the Linux term. I use IFL to do my restores as it is very fast. Download the IFL GUI not the IFL CUI. You can create a CD or USB flash drive boot disk.

There is a 30 day trial...

http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/image-for-linux.htm
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #2 - Dec 15th, 2013 at 11:38pm
 
Brian, funny you should mention TBU, as I sent an E-Mail to them and got this deal breaker line in their reply:

"However, we don't allow changing the backup files."

Another stranger statement:

"If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you wouldn't need to have a GPT."

As my Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 has Advanced Format 512e, I E-Mailed

them back to explain since the whole web agrees that 3TB HDD's won't show past 2.1 TBs using a MBR.

I'll post their answer when I get it.

Big Al
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #3 - Dec 16th, 2013 at 12:57am
 
@
Big_Al


Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 11:38pm:
"However, we don't allow changing the backup files."


I'll need the full context of the question to know what the answer means. Similarly for the GPT answer.

 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #4 - Dec 16th, 2013 at 10:22am
 
@
Big_Al

Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am:
I recently purchased a Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 3TB HDD which I have yet to open until this issue is resolved.

So, this appears to be a *theoretical* problem that you're concerned might happen--you haven't actually tried using that large HDD with imaging software as yet--correct?

Could you clarify what the *issue* is--I'm not sure I got the specific problem from your post?

Is it that older imaging software does not *understand* the GPT partitioning structure vs the old style MBR partition structure--and because of that the old imaging software can not create a GPT partitioned HDD if you want to transfer your data to a new *un-used* HDD?

Or, if once created, is it that the old imaging software can not create a partition image from a GPT partitioned HDD, and later restore that image to the existing GPT partition HDD--in other words the imaging software never has to manipulate the partition structure--just has to backup and later restore the data to an existing partition?

Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am:
If the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after cloning, the destination is now Fat32.

Or, are you saying that the old imaging software is unable to restore the file system structure of the original source partition onto another partition that had been formated to a different file system than what's in the image file of the source?

Do you have links to other sources that have reported and discuss the problem(s) you are concerned with?

 

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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #5 - Dec 16th, 2013 at 10:51am
 
@
Big_Al

Don't know if this applies, but looks like you have to make sure you have compatible hardware as well as OS, and looks like booting from a HDD larger than 2.19 TB is also an issue....looks like these issues are unrelated to any imaging software.....:

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-performance/i-have-a-...
 

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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #6 - Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:11am
 
Brian:

From my original post:

My latest Ghost is v11.5.1.2269, which I found out from

Symantec has issues with GPT.

--------------------------------

I sent TBU an E-Mail that was almost a dupe of my original

post here with this added:

The image that Ghost makes can have ANY file deleted OR added

to the image using "Ghost Explorer" and will restore as if

it were never touched.


My full exchange with TBU....

Yes, it supports GPT partitioned drives.
If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you
wouldn't need to have a GPT.

If you do an entire drive backup / restore
it will keep whatever partitioning type was
backed up when it restores. If you want to
move something, you'd have to do individual
partition restores. I would recommend you
keep your existing drive for booting Windows
and anything else and use the larger GPT drive
for your data because the boot process is
completely different under UEFI.
You can setup and customize the boot disks with
your own scripts that do anything you want.

However, we don't allow changing the backup files.

If you have files to archive you can store them somewhere

and have your script copy them over after the backup.

                                     December 16, 2013

Dear TBU Sales,

   First, thank you for your VERY prompt reply.  Nice to see

a company that values its customers.

   Unfortunately "However, we don't allow changing the

backup files." was a deal killer.

   Something you said:

"If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you
wouldn't need to have a GPT."

flies in the face of EVERYTHING that I have read in pursuit of

my 3TB goal.  Basically that Windows 7's (64-Bit included)

CANNOT utilize over 2.1 or so TB's when a MBR is used.  Ie:

http://www.sevenforums.com/general-discussion/197004-how-do-i-create-new-volume-...

http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-hardware/using-3tb-dr...


BTW, This is what my present Toshiba 2TB looks like

Near the bottom):

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh147334%28v=ws.10%29.aspx


Checking the Toshiba specs they BOTH have Advanced Format 512e:

http://storage.toshiba.com/storagesolutions/pc-notebook/dt01aca-series


If my Toshiba 3TB cannot go beyond the 2.1 or so TB's when a MBR is

used, do you have software that can make BOTH the 2.1 and the

balance of the drive (600 GB or so) NTFS so I can use a MBR?????

I await your reply.


                             Sincerely,




                              Al Camp
-------------------------------------
                                     December 16, 2013

If you expose the 4K sector size and not the emulated

normal 512 byte sector size, you can use an MBR and

use the entire space (up to 16TiB).

0xFFFFFFFF*512=2,199,023,255,040
0xFFFFFFFF*4096=17,592,186,040,320

-------------------------------------
                                     December 16, 2013

Dear TBU Sales,


>If you expose the 4K sector size and not the emulated

>normal 512 byte sector size, you can use an MBR and

>use the entire space (up to 16TiB).

>0xFFFFFFFF*512=2,199,023,255,040
>0xFFFFFFFF*4096=17,592,186,040,320

With what software and what is the procedure to go about

doing this?

Can it be done via a Bootable CD or must it be done in Windows

with just my SSD and empty 3TB connected?

                             Thank you,

                              Al Camp
-------------------------------------
                                     December 16, 2013

It would be a drive feature/option, typically using
a jumper. The BIOS would also have to support the larger
sizes too so it doesn't crash reading larger sectors, a
modern BIOS should be able to handle it.



I've got an E-Mail in to Toshiba about this.  Still waiting for a reply.

**********************************************************************

NightOwl:


>you haven't actually tried using that large HDD with imaging software as yet--correct?

  You are correct, Sir!

>Could you clarify what the *issue* is

  After searching the Symantec site a LOT, the bottom line

was that my Ghost is v11.5.1.2269 (From Ghost Solution Suite

2.5) must be updated to v11.5.1.2298. I have no way to do

that and this came up too:

Does Ghost work with GPT partition tables?

The GPT supports up to 128 partitions and uses a false Master Boot

Record (MBR) with only one entry that points at the GPT. This is for

legacy compatibility reasons.

Because the Ghost virtual partition replaces the MBR with it's own

version, it will cause problems with systems that use a GPT.

and THIS horror:

http://www.symantec.com/business/support/index?page=content&id=DOC6587


From my post:

If the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after cloning, the destination is now Fat32.


This is SOP with my v11.5.1.2269 bootable CD.

When I put my 2TB HDD in my box in June, I partitioned it

with EaseUS Partition Master Pro v9.0 and set all partitions

as NTFS to check out this exact question.

When I Ghosted my 1TB HDD's partitions to the 2TB, all of

the 1TBs FAT32 partitions came out FAT32 on the 2TB.


>Don't know if this applies

  Doesn't--Check my original post: Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit

with an ASRock P67 PRO3 (B3) MoBo that has a UEFI BIOS.


Just found a SEMI solution:

Acronis True Image 2014 CAN make that second partition that

is set as "unallocated" by Windows into a usable MBR partition.

Check out the scan I made of their "Extended Capacity Manager".

The last 3rd of a 3TB is made to look like a second MBR disk

to Windows, and all is good.

Unfortunately, my future F Drive cannot be 2.538 TB's, just

2.037 TB's.

AND the Acronis True Image 2014 cost $50.00.

BUT, my Easy-peasy "Make", "Restore" and Manual Ghost DOS

Bootable CDs are still in the game!


Big Al
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #7 - Dec 18th, 2013 at 2:50am
 
@
Big_Al

If TeraByte Support says it can be done then I believe it. But to keep things "simple" I'd do what you intended. A 3 TB GPT drive.

Quote:
However, we don't allow changing the backup files.

I have no idea what is meant by this. Did you get an explanation?

Be careful of Acronis software. It is the most complained about imaging software and their partitioning software is just as bad.

IFL will do what you desire. You have a UEFI BIOS set in Legacy (MBR) mode. That's fine. Same as my computer. Win 7 and IFL will work fine with a 3 TB GPT drive.
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #8 - Dec 18th, 2013 at 1:49pm
 
@
Big_Al

This doesn't apply to your system but IFL will also boot in a computer with the UEFI BIOS set to UEFI mode. I've done image/restore using UEFI mode and there is little difference from MBR mode.
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #9 - Dec 18th, 2013 at 9:00pm
 
Brian wrote:
    (re: "However, we don't allow changing the backup files.")
    I have no idea what is meant by this. Did you get an explanation?

Brian, from the context of Reply #6, I understood TBU to say that once an image is made, you can't selectively alter it by "updating" individual files embedded in the image. Al seems to indicate Ghost Explorer *can* do that with a Ghost image without corrupting the image.

In over 15 years using Ghost I never knew it could do that, but then again I can't imagine why I would ever *want* it to do that. IMHO, it goes to the very heart of what an image is--an exact copy of known working condition at a specific point in time.

TBU's response seems perfectly reasonable to me: simply restore the partition image and follow that with a straight copy of the "updated" file(s). I don't understand why this should be a deal breaker for Al. 



Al wrote:
    if the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after cloning, the destination is now Fat32.
    This is SOP with my v11.5.1.2269 bootable CD.

That's also SOP with any proper cloning tool, as well, including Terabyte Image. The definition of a "clone" literally demands the resulting file system to be the same as the source file system.

I'll note that terms have become a bit obfuscated by Microsoft (oh, surprise!). Microsoft's ImageX solution used in Vista/7/8 does not protect the source file system. ImageX allows (indeed, requires) the target to have any recognizable file system and simply copies files to that partition's file system, regardless of the source partition's file system. Hence, ImageX can restore a FAT32 .wim image to a NTFS partition and the result will be NTFS.

To me, that's not a clone, but Microsoft doesn't seem to care about the distinction.



Al wrote:
    Another stranger statement:
    "If your new drive uses 4K sector sizes you wouldn't need to have a GPT."
    As my Toshiba PH3300U-1I72 has Advanced Format 512e, I E-Mailed them back to explain since the whole web agrees that 3TB HDD's won't show past 2.1 TBs using a MBR.

Al, TBU is exactly right. In case this is unclear, the underlying limit is the number of sectors, not the capacity of the drive. The MBR system doesn't specifically limit a drive to 2TBs, it limits the number of *sectors* the MBR can see. The 2TB limit comes from the fact that legacy drives have universally used sectors of 512 bytes, which when multiplied by the maximum number of sectors the MBR can see results in a total capacity of 2TB. However, if sectors of 4KB are used instead of 512 bytes, that maximum capacity goes up to 16TB.

For backward compatibility, many new drives use "512e mode"--i.e., physical sectors are 4KB but the drive firmware *emulates* them to the outside world as a block of 512-byte sectors. When in 512e mode the drive appears to have 512-byte sectors, and given the sector limit of the MBR system you're limited to 2TB capacity. However, since these drives actually have 4KB sectors internally, it's possible to use a jumper or a manufacturer utility to change a firmware setting and change from 512e to 4KB mode. If that is done, the capacity limit goes up to 16TB.

All the above is relevant only to MBR layouts. If the drive uses a GPT partition layout, it can handle far more max sectors.

Note that MBR vs GPT is a matter of the partitioning scheme *on the drive*. It does not depend on the BIOS or OS, except to the extent that the OS must understand the scheme. Win7 understands the scheme, so as TBU and Brian both indicated, you would have no trouble keeping your (SSD) boot drive as MBR and formatting your 3TB as GPT.



Al wrote:
    Check out the scan I made of their "Extended Capacity Manager".
    The last 3rd of a 3TB is made to look like a second MBR disk to Windows, and all is good.

Yikes!! That sure looks like a custom, proprietary way of treating a HDD, and almost certainly requires a proprietary driver from Acronis that needs to be installed in Windows.  I wouldn't touch that with a ten-foot pole!  That would almost certainly make the HDD unreadable by standard or non-Acronis utilities.





 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #10 - Dec 22nd, 2013 at 6:05pm
 
Guys,

OK, dispite Dan's "Yikes!!":

That's the way to make a 3TB FULLY accessible and set as MBR.

Acronis True Image, aka Seagates DiskWizard aka WD's version

of DiskWizard puts the Extended Capacity Manager in the boot

sector, so you get one 2.1TB and one 700+GB partition, BOTH MBR.

See: Seagate DiscWizard CloneDisc For Drives Larger Than 3TB_Part-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCLGfj1LSmI


Also, I just found this (of all things) "Built into Windows" way,

WITHOUT ANY software and would like some input before opening the

Toshiba 3TB's box:


Make SURE the 3TB is EMPTY as this will wipe ALL data on the drive

To make a fully accessible 3TB with 4k sector:


1. Boot to desktop.

2. Open "My Computer" in Windows Explorer.

3. Click on the EMPTY 3TB HDD.

4. If the factory made some partitions on it, delete them all.

5. Once it is just one disk, right-click it and click "Format"

6. Select "4096", "NTFS" and "Format".

7. Click OK.  Since the 3TB is EMPTY, it should be real quick.

8. It's now ready to be partitioned to your liking up to 2.7 or so

   TB's total and is set as MBR.

Big Al
 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #11 - Dec 23rd, 2013 at 2:50am
 
Big_Al wrote on Dec 22nd, 2013 at 6:05pm:
OK, dispite Dan's "Yikes!!":
That's the way to make a 3TB FULLY accessible and set as MBR.


I said "yikes" because you're making a deal with the devil when there is absolutely no reason to do so.

That technique will create a hard disk with a proprietary partition scheme that only Acronis can decipher.  If something disastrous were to happen and you needed to remove that hard disk and recover its files via another system, you're dead in the water because nobody but Acronis will be able to decipher what they did to that disk.



Quote:
Also, I just found this (of all things) "Built into Windows" way, WITHOUT ANY software and would like some input


You got bad advice.  Whoever gave you those instructions doesn't know the difference between 4KB sectors and 4KB allocation units.  Those are entirely different things.


The "Built into Windows way, WITHOUT ANY software" is called GPT.  It's already a standard.  Just leave your boot SSD as a MBR disk, initialize the 3TB as a GPT disk and you'll have access to the full 3TB from Win7, Win8, or linux . . . that includes any Win7 or Win8, not just the one Acronis blesses with their snake oil.

You already got that recommendation from TBU, and Brian reiterated it.




 
 
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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #12 - Dec 24th, 2013 at 10:16am
 
@
Big_Al

Big_Al wrote on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:11am:
Unfortunately "However, we don't allow changing the backup files." was a deal killer.


I looked at your original post at the beginning of this thread and nowhere is there a mention of requiring this type of function.  Ghost 2003 (Corp Ghost 7.5) Ghost Explorer allowed one to add or remove a file from an image file set, but only if the file system was FAT.  I have not used that function, but I think after you make those changes, you then have to *recompile* the image file set and re-save it.  I looked at the Ghost 11.5x user guide and saw that the FAT restriction was no longer mentioned, so I have to assume that you can now use Ghost Explorer to add or remove files from an image set from any partition regardless of the file system in use.

As Dan Goodell said:

Dan Goodell wrote on Dec 18th, 2013 at 9:00pm:
but then again I can't imagine why I would ever *want* it to do that.

Could you offer us an explanation of how and why you want to use an image program in this fashion.  What problem or benefit does this offer for how you use Ghost currently?

Big_Al wrote on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:11am:
Because the Ghost virtual partition replaces the MBR with it's own version, it will cause problems with systems that use a GPT.

Again, based on how you are using Ghost as outlined in your original post, you are not creating or using a *virtual partition*.  The virtual partition was first used in Ghost 2003 (Corp Ghost v7.5x) to allow using a Windows interface to setup Ghost procedures, then having Ghost close down Windows, load DOS, perform the procedure, and then shut down DOS,  and reboot to Windows.  (We recently had a thread where we *discovered* that when Ghost 2003 uses the virtual partition, it does replace the Master Boot Record (MBR) with its own version of the MBR, and then copies the original MBR back before rebooting to Windows (I can't find that link--I'll update this when I do).  (Edit 12/26/2013:  found it!--How to Recover from Lost Windows Partition with Ghost 2003 --have to read thru it to see what we found regarding Ghost 2003 and the virtual partition and its MBR.)  If your version of Corp Ghost does not understand GPT partitioning, then the MBR that it uses when doing a procedure that involves using the virtual partition routine will not allow Ghost to *see* the GPT partitions and their locations.

Corp Ghost uses the virtual partition when doing Ghost Cast type procedures over a network with connected client PC's that do not have Ghost installed on them.  The Ghost server pushes the virtual partition out to the client in a similar fashion as to how Ghost 2003 does it on the local machine.  But, again, based on your original post, you are not doing that type of Ghost procedure--there is no virtual partition that is involved.

So, the real question is if your DOS based Ghost version can use that *legacy MBR* to locate the various partitions on a GPT partitioned HDD.  I suspect it can not--but, that's what I said you needed to try once you have a GPT partitioned HDD to see if your version of Ghost can handle it.  Your Ghost might not be able to create a GPT partitioned HDD, but it might be able to see the partitions--only trying will answer that question for sure.

Big_Al wrote on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:11am:
If the source is Fat32 and the destination is NTFS, after cloning, the destination is now Fat32.

Well, I was asking you to clarify what theoretical problem(s) you were having with how Ghost will work on the GPT partitioned HDD.  But, I still am unclear--are you saying the way Ghost currently functions on your MBR based HDDs is not what you want--or are you saying that you want an imaging program to continue to work in this fashion?  As far as I know, all imaging programs will restore the original file system that was in use when the source image was created regardless of the file system that may exist on the destination partition before the restore occurs.  Are you looking of some other functionality?

 

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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #13 - Dec 26th, 2013 at 10:04am
 
@
Big_Al

I was re-reading this thread (slowly--to attempt to make sure I understood   Wink ), and there were a couple things that caught my attention:

In your original post:  Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am:
My C, D and E partitions are on a 120GB SSD NTFS with a MBR.

and:  Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am:
When I load my "Make C" CD, it loads Ghost, makes an image of my C Drive and stores it on my E Drive as "Newest.gho".

Your Ghost backup is being stored on E:, which is on the same HDD (i.e. the SSD).  So you have a backup of your current active OS available should something go wrong.

But, if your SSD dies, you have no protection that would allow you to restore your OS to a replacement drive--you will loose your Ghost backup on the E: drive as well as the C: and D: partitions.

So, unless you are copying your Ghost image to your other 2 TB HDD, or to an external HDD that you can access if you need to restore your image to a replacement drive, you're missing an important part of using an imaging program for backup protection.

Just want to make sure you are doing this on purpose......or have other image copy/restore procedures in place that you have not mentioned.

The other item--in this post you have a screen shoot of your 2 TB HDD:  Big_Al wrote on Dec 18th, 2013 at 12:11am:
BTW, This is what my present Toshiba 2TB looks like

Near the bottom):

I assume this is an *old* Disk Management screen shoot of the 2 TB HDD because it has what appears to be an OS installed on it, and is not partitioned and showing the drive letter assignments F: thru M: that you mention in your original post.  And there is a second drive that has the F: partition on it, but no other partitions.

So, I'm presuming this represents part of the:  Big_Al wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 2:59am:
I've had a bunch of changes in my computer.

Just wanted to *clarify* that.
 

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Re: Ghost Replacement For GPT HDD?
Reply #14 - Dec 26th, 2013 at 10:19am
 
@
Brian

Brian wrote on Dec 15th, 2013 at 4:44am:
I assume you would like to image/clone from a boot disk rather than from Windows. Image for Linux will work with your system. Don't be concerned about the Linux term.

So, if Big_Al were to switch to Image for Linux, can he add scripts to that boot disc that will act like what he currently has set up--he just puts a CD in the system's optical drive, and the backup or restore (depending on which disc he uses) is automatically performed.

He's using command line statements in his autoexec.bat (or possibly a script file) that tells Ghost what to do without further input other than booting from the optical disc.

So, Image for Linux understands a GPT partitioned HDD, but does Image for DOS have the same abilities.  I'm pretty sure that there are command line statements that can be used with Image for DOS that would mimic the DOS Ghost statements on a DOS based boot disc--but will Image for DOS correctly see, and work with a GPT HDD?

I know that all the TeraByte Image programs can interchangeably use the image files created by the other programs, but are there different limitations that force one to use only one or the other of the different Image programs--in particular in relations to the GPT partitioned HDDs?
 

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No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink !
 
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