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Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out? (Read 3644 times)
NightOwl
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Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Jun 13th, 2016 at 1:14am
 
To All

Well, I'm thinking about trying out Win10 (before the end of the *free* upgrade offer runs out).

I started looking around thinking I should test my system for compatibility for Win10--but soon found out there is no separate program that Microsoft has made available--only way to do it is by downloading the GWX (Get Windows 10) upgrade program to my system. 

So--being not sure how that might effect my system, thought I'd ask for any advice based on other folks experience.

1.  Does anyone know if there is a separate system compatibility program to test one's system to see if there are driver/component issues with Win10?

2.  Brian, if you see this--you probably know the answer to this best--if one upgrades to Win10 by doing it online--does Win10's installation routine overwrite and replace the TeraBytes's Boot-it Bare Metal boot program?  What does one need to be prepared for to re-establish the TeraByte boot program--does one need to have some sort of backup of the boot program setup data?

3.  If something goes wrong and you end up with a bricked, frozen system from attempting to do the upgrade--is using backup images and restoring them the best solution--and does that work without any issues?  Or, does the Win10 setup program make changes that affect other OS partitions and the ability to access them?

4.  I've heard some discussion that the online upgrade sometimes fails, and the only way to successfully install Win10 is by doing a clean install and not attempt the online upgrade.    Brian--I saw you discussing with Christer how to install Win10 on his old computer system--you mentioned doing a *clean* install of Win10 and using a Win7 product key to properly activate--but, there seemed to be some question as to whether that was accepted by Microsoft--or not.  Do you know about that now?

I have a multiboot setup using TeraByte's Boot It Bare Metal with old WinXP, and Win7.  I was thinking about creating a new partition (I have some unused space on my SSD), putting a copy of my Win7 on that partition, and then using it to test out the upgrade process.

5.  Given the above--is there anything I need to watch out for?  Any *gotcha's* that might bite me?  Will the GWX interfere with the other OS partitions, and possibly prevent me from booting to them?

6.  Just out of curiosity, does Win10 have the Microsoft's multiboot ability like older Windows OS's?  I have not heard any discussions of that--in the upgrade process, Microsoft overwrites and eliminates the old Win7 or Win8 OS--no offer to allow for multibooting!

Thanks in advance for any insights....


 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 2:04am
 
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NightOwl

You have nothing to worry about. Your system won't be hosed.

Firstly, I agree with your thought of copying the Win7 partition to Free Space on your drive. Then you will have two Win7 of equal size although you could resize the Copy smaller if you desire (on the Options page prior to the copy starting). But make sure you have at least 15 GB of Free Space in the Win7 partition prior to upgrading to Win10.
Create a Boot Item for the second Win7 and make sure it boots OK. In the Boot Item don't have your other OS partitions in MBR Details or have them hidden. I'm not sure if you are using Unlimited Primaries or not with BIBM. With Unlimited Primaries you can exclude the other OS partitions from the Win7 MBR.

Regarding upgrading to Win10. The most reliable method is to download a Win10 ISO and create a bootable USB flash drive with Rufus. Don't do an online upgrade. None worked when I tried. The UFD method always worked. Although you will have a bootable UFD, you will not boot from it. Get the ISO to match your Win7 from here...

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/techbench

Get the "Windows 10" edition and not the other three.

Rufus is here...

https://rufus.akeo.ie/

Boot into your second Win7, plug in the UFD and double click setup.exe on the UFD. Follow instructions. It's easy and the upgrade should take 10 to 60 minutes depending on your hardware. You can pull out the UFD after the first restart when you see a big circle with a percentage number. Remember, you want the HD booting prior to the UFD in the BIOS Boot Menu. You don't want the UFD to boot after a restart.

Let's talk about clean installs later. At present you should be doing what I described above. You can't brick your system doing this.

Questions?

Edit... Don't bother doing any new Win7 updates as they aren't needed. You can upgrade a fresh Win7 install  (without any updates) to Win10.

Edit.. Win10 does support Microsoft Multi-boot.

Edit... BIBM will not be inactivated. It will be the same after the Win10 upgrade.
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #2 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 2:42am
 
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NightOwl

I have upgraded two systems for friends. Both had tried the on-line upgrade and failed, even though their systems were reported to be "ready to go".

I did the off-line upgrade from a UFD, created with build 10586 on those systems. I did it off-line (denied getting updates and drivers during the installation) and when completed, I connected to the internet and let Windows Update loose. It found all drivers for Win10 but one. It was for the printers. I downloaded and installed a version for Win7 on one and for Vista (?!) on the second. Both worked.

Both systems were activated automatically.

One of the guys wanted a SSD and I installed Win10 on it using the same UFD. When done, it activated with the MS servers without a problem.

My own system is dual boot of WinXP and Win7, set up by the Win7 installer. WinXP was installed first on C:. Next, Win7 was installed on D: which created the dual boot. (The partition of the booted operating system is always C: and the not booted D:, no other partitions apart from the data partition.)

Prior to upgrading, I created a Ghost Image of C: and another of D: which I do on a monthly basis. I uppgraded off-line using the same UFD with good results. No driver problems at all, everything worked fine after WU had done its job and it activated nicely.

The dual boot works fine but the "select OS bit" is much slower on WinXP/Win10 than on WinXP/Win7.

I created new Images of C: and D: after the upgrade was completed. They have to be restored synchonized. Restoring the new D: (Win10/WinXP) with the old C: (WinXP/Win7) does not work.

I don't know how your setup works but if there is a "system reserved partition", I guess that's the one to keep synchronized.

I have gone back to WinXP/Win7 and plan to do a fresh install of Win10 only, on a new SSD. Now that my free upgrade has been activated, I can enjoy Win7 on the desktop while exploring Win10 on my new laptop with an SSD. It took a while to get Win10 to look more like Win7 and I'm still learning. I can fool around with the laptop since it has been imaged using Image for Linux by TeraByte.

Now, it's gliding season (on the northern hemisphere) but one day, maybe when the snow starts falling, I'll take the leap and abandon WinXP/Win7 and Ghost for Win10 and IFL ... Undecided ... !
 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #3 - Jun 13th, 2016 at 9:37pm
 
I have 4 Win10 on HD0 in this computer. One is a fresh install and has never been connected to the internet. So it's not Activated. No apps have been installed. I checked Device Manager and there are drivers for all hardware devices except the printer.

The partition is 12 GB (it has been resized smaller) and there is 1.8 GB of Free Space.

My multi-boot includes Win10, Win8, Win7, Vista, WinXP, Linux, DOS and WinPEs.
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #4 - Jun 14th, 2016 at 8:43am
 
@
Brian

Quote:
I have 4 Win10 on HD0 in this computer...........My multi-boot includes Win10, Win8, Win7, Vista, WinXP, Linux, DOS and WinPEs.

Okay, now you are just bragging  Smiley

Wish you were my next door neighbor--would really enjoy bouncing things off you (maybe over a beer or two) and being motivated to try new things--with your help to bail me out when thing went wrong.

This forum works--but not quit the same thing .......

@
Christer

Quote:
I have upgraded two systems for friends.

He, He ...yeah, I've done that too--test out certain things on my friends' systems before I tried them on mine to see how it all works  Wink !  Have always created an image first before proceeding--for a safety net!

To you both--I do have more questions and will post them hopefully tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks for the input so far--good info!



 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #5 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 1:43am
 
@
Brian, and
@
Christer, and all ....

So, to answer a couple questions--I am using just the standard 4 primaries--not the unlimited primaries available in the Boot-It Bare Metal Boot program. 

I am using TeraBytes Boot-it Bare Metal boot loader for multibooting--it has it's own partition separate from the OS partitions on a SSD HDD.

I *generalized* the boot information for Win7 in the BCD.

I have WinXP, and Win7 partitions on the SSD, and have now added a new Win10 partition.  I have created a new boot menu item for that partition, hidden that new partition so the other OS's don't see it, and hidden the other OS's from the Win10 partition so it does not see them.  To that new partition I have copied my Win7 to that partition.  Tested booting to that new partition and it has booted without any problems.  So I now have my *test* partition for upgrading Win7 to Win10.

So, now my questions.

1.  I would like to see what the Get Windows 10 (GWX) says about compatibility with Win10 before I proceed with upgrading to Win10.  So, I assume I would specifically download the GWX Kb using Windows Update, and then run the menu item that says it will test for Win10 compatibility.  I assume this should not be a major issue?

2.  If there are no major compatibility issues found, I can then use the Rufus program and the Win10 upgrade program to do an offline upgrade.  Sound okay?

3.  So, Brian--you said that the Win10 upgrade program will not trash the TeraByte boot loader program.  Is this new?  If I remember, in the past, whenever one was using a Microsoft upgrade to a new OS, the setup program would over-write any third party boot program and install the Microsoft boot program.  And one would have to re-initiate the third party boot program.  So, Microsoft isn't doing that anymore?

If my current Win7 program is *generalized* so it doesn't mater what partition I restore a copy to, will the new Win10 also have its boot information *generalized* as well?

4.  In the past, there was a lot of negative recommendations regarding an *upgrade* vs a clean install--the problems being that often an upgrade would go badly and fail, or it would bring forward bad registry entries from the old OS.  I saw Christer state that he plans on doing a *clean install* later in order to use Win10 going forward.  What has been the experience and consensus on this?  How would one do a *clean* install in the future--what OS setup program is use for that that's different from the *upgrade* program?

5.  Obviously, Microsoft has made the assumption that using the GWX program, the old Win7 is going to be over-written and *destroyed*!  I'm planning on continuing to have my Win7 system on a separate boot partition.  Is there any discussions out there about continuing to use the old Win7 and the new Win10 that apparently are using the *same* license.  Is this considered a violation of Microsoft's EULA?  I would be using only one of the OS's at any one time, but it's still the *original* license for both OS's--issues?

I'll stop here for now.  More questions and answers going forward in the future.




 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #6 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 2:28am
 
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I wouldn't bother waiting for the GWX. All except one of my computers passed GWX. The one that didn't pass (video card issue), I upgraded anyway and it's fine.

If you install a Windows OS it will inactivate BIBM by installing a standard MBR. Doing an upgrade doesn't install a standard MBR. So no BIBM issue. Microsoft upgrades did have a bad reputation but the Win10 upgrade doesn't. I've never upgraded a Windows OS prior to the Win10 upgrade and I've probably now done 50. No problems. I can do an upgrade in just over 10 minutes on a fast computer. My slow tablet (Atom processor) took 2 hours.

Once you have done a Win10 upgrade and your Win10 has been Activated (it's automatic) you can then delete all partitions on the drive and do a standard clean Win10 install. It will Activate. Doing a clean Win10 install was my plan until I saw just how well the upgrade turned out. So apart from tests, I'm not using a clean Win10 install.

In your case you could have WinXP, Win7 and Win10 (upgraded from Win7). BIBM would make the fourth primary partition.

No problem with using your Win7 and Win10. They will both be Activated and legal.

I can't answer your "generalized" BCD question. I don't use it but I assume it would make no difference unless you are using Ghost.
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #7 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 4:08am
 
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NightOwl

I just did an exercise on a BIBM computer. Upgraded Win7 to Win10. Recommendations...

In the Win7 to Win10 Boot Item, make it Default.
In Settings make the Timeout 3 seconds.

This will make the Microsoft restarts automatic.

Total time was 15 minutes. (it was a fresh Win7 install without any Win7 updates)
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #8 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 2:33pm
 
NightOwl, I'll add a few points to Brian's info.

I also wouldn't bother with GWX. When you start the Win10 install it will test some things and tell you if there are any blocking issues.

As in the past, the MBR-overwrite issue depends on whether you're doing an upgrade or a clean install. A clean install (i.e., an install launched by booting a Win10 DVD or USB stick) will still overwrite the MBR, but an upgrade (i.e., an install launched from within Win7) does not.

In order to get the free upgrade, Brian's instructions have you booting into (your second) Win7 and launching Win10's setup.exe from there. That will not overwrite your MBR.

Win10's activation process will fingerprint your hardware and store it on MS's servers. Once that has been done, you can wipe the partition and do a clean install, and it will still activate because the process will recognize it's already been fingerprinted. The clean install will overwrite your MBR, so you'll need to reactivate BIBM afterward.

(BTW, Win7 and Win10 will not use the same license. Win10 will get a new license, with the Win7 license checked only to validate your entitlement to a new Win10 license. FWIW, IME Win7 OEM licenses are even turned into Win10 Retail licenses. So once your system is fingerprinted an upgraded OEM system is no longer OEM and no longer an upgrade, it's effectively the same as any Retail installation--which does away with the need for different Retail vs. Upgrade installation media.)

I have done that (upgrade/wipe/clean install) and compared images of both results. Like Brian, I see little or no difference between the two results, provided you thoroughly clean up after an upgrade process (deleting windows.old, etc.).

That assumes you're starting from a new Win7 SP1 installation. A Win10 upgrade install will ask if you want to keep your old settings and documents, so if you do and you have a bunch of apps already installed on Win7, the upgrade result will obviously be larger than a clean-install result.

Personally, being the nitpicker I am, I would follow up with a clean install (and reinstalling apps) if upgrading a well-worn Win7/8 installation, but wouldn't bother if you're upgrading a fresh Win7/8 installation.

Before you get started, I'll recommend one more tip: check that your duplicate partition is actually "C" when it's booted. Generalizing the BCD allows you to move the partition without having BCD issues, but does not determine any drive letters. Drive letters are stored in the registry's [MountedDevices] key. The registry is left unchanged when you duplicate the partition, so it's possible for the duplicate to boot up thinking the original partition is still "C". I call that a "schizophrenic system".

The ways to avoid a schizophrenic system are to:
  • Delete relevant drive letters from the original's [MountedDevices] key before imaging/cloning so any restored clone will have no memory of old drive letters; or
  • Munge the DiskID, even if only temporarily, so the first time the duplicate boots it will notice letters in the [MountedDevices] are invalid and will reassign letters anew; or
  • Munge the partition table so when the duplicate boots it will see no partition at all at the location of the old C, and therefore reassign C anew.

Note that Brian doesn't run into that problem because he uses unlimited primaries in BIBM, which achieves the effect of the third option above. But for those of us who limit primaries, we have to be aware of what's going on in the [MountedDevices] key.
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #9 - Jun 16th, 2016 at 5:53pm
 
Just a few observations about a (MBR/Legacy system) Win10 upgrade. If you have less than 4 primary partitions in the partition table the intended Win10 partition will be resized 450 MB smaller and a 450 MB Recovery partition will be created. If you create one or more primary partitions (which can be deleted later) to bring the primary partition count to four, the 450 MB Recovery partition can't be created and the Recovery files will be in the Win10 partition.

I tested a system with Win7 and BIBM. It's been years since I've used Limited Primaries so that's what I used this time. The Win7 partition was copied to Free Space on the drive and the Boot Item was set up like this in MBR Details...

Win7 Hidden
Win7 soon to be Win10
Empty
BIBM

I tried to boot "Win7 soon to be Win10". It got stuck on the "Starting Windows" screen with the four glowing squares. I remembered the fix from years ago. You can't have a Hidden partition in Slot 0 so I changed MBR Details to...

Win7 soon to be Win10
Win7 Hidden
Empty
BIBM

Now "Win7 soon to be Win10" booted normally and was C: drive.

If I'd been using Unlimited Primaries the MBR Details would have been...

Win7 soon to be Win10

Just one partition. No Hidden partitions. Disk Management would show a single partition and the remainder of the drive as Unallocated Free Space.
 
 
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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #10 - Jun 19th, 2016 at 9:45am
 
@
Dan Goodell,
@
Brian, and
@
Christer

More good information--I'm pressed for time right now--so, I'll be back later to continue the conversation!

Thanks.

 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2016 at 1:24am
 
Been busy the last couple days--and I will be out of town for the next 4 days.

But, I'm coming back to this topic when I get home.

See you in a few days.
 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #12 - Jul 3rd, 2016 at 11:10am
 
@
Dan Goodell

Thanks for your clarifications--helped make more sense out of what's happening.

Dan Goodell wrote on Jun 16th, 2016 at 2:33pm:
Before you get started, I'll recommend one more tip: check that your duplicate partition is actually "C" when it's booted. Generalizing the BCD allows you to move the partition without having BCD issues, but does not determine any drive letters. Drive letters are stored in the registry's [MountedDevices] key. The registry is left unchanged when you duplicate the partition, so it's possible for the duplicate to boot up thinking the original partition is still "C". I call that a "schizophrenic system".

Made me look!

That got me thinking back some time ago when Vista first came out, and folks started having boot issues if they restored an image of their Vista partition using Ghost--even to the same partition that the image came from! 

Prior to Vista, because folks who were less aware of what's going on (i.e. Ghost User Guides never explained this very well, in an obvious place, prior to giving the instructions on how to *clone* HDDs), they were getting trashed systems when cloning.   

Ghost originally did not erase the disk ID when cloning.  This led to people cloning a HDD, but leaving it on the system along with the original source HDD, and booting to the old or new cloned HDD to test how everything went--this led to trashed systems because one or the other HDD's OS's Registry got wacked because Windows did not handle seeing two identical disk IDs on one system.  So, Ghost was re-programed (during the Win98se, and WinMe era), and was sent out via Live Update, to always erase the disk ID--and Windows automatically replaced that missing disk ID on next boot, but with a different value--it prevented Windows from seeing two identical disk IDs, and new disk IDs were created and all was well--until the new way of booting was created for Vista.  Erasing the original disk ID now trashed the BCD (Boot Configuration Data), because the new (then) Vista boot was partition specific based on a calculation and assigning a separate partition IDs using that disk ID.  Once that disk ID was erased, and a new one was created, now the BCD information did not match the old partition ID.

That's when we discovered we could use a Ghost switch that preserved the disk ID when restoring a partition image to it's original location.  And, later we learned that we could *generalize* the BCD information so it was not partition ID dependent.

All the above blah, blah, is a prelude to my saying *I hate cloning programs--that don't tell what they're doing in the background without your knowledge*--i.e. go read the User Guide--but, good luck if you happen to read the right page, buried deep in the 150 page, or more, Guide.  And, possibly, even the Guide does not tell you about this either!  I wish there was a brief listing of what was done--not a detailed discussion, just an outline--so if one wanted to see what's going on and why, you know what to look for in the Guide or online searches, etc.

So, tell me *We have erased the disk ID to avoid drive letter assignment conflict*.  Or, *We have detected that you have cloned a source HDD, to a second destination HDD--please remove one of the HDDs before re-booting to avoid drive letter assignment conflicts caused by identical HDD IDs*.

And this is all to say, Image for Linux and Boot It Bare Metal, must have taken care of everything for me!  There were no drive letter conflicts, no "schizophrenic system", and each OS has drive letter *C*. 

Maybe that's because I have hidden all the OS partitions from each other--only the booted partition is active and *seen* by Windows.  I looked in *disk management* and the hidden partitions are noted, but the file system is *unknown*, and as far as I can see, there is no easy access to them by Windows--and therefore no drive letters assigned to them.

More to come later......
 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #13 - Jul 26th, 2016 at 1:33pm
 
To all

So, I have not been sitting by idly--doing lots of reading and following up on various pieces of info and recommendations.

I have not been able to download the 64 bit version of Win10 installation iso--fails at the over 90% downloaded.  The *retry* option fails as well.  The 32 bit version downloaded without issue.

I'm sure I know the answer already, but will ask just to confirm:

1.  If you are using a 32 bit Win7 OS--can you even use the 64 bit OS upgrade installation to upgrade one's system?  I'm thinking if you have 32 bit Win7, then you have to stick with the 32 bit Win10--correct?

2.  If you use the 32 bit Win10 upgrade to get the free *Activation*, and later want to do a 64 bit clean install of Win10, will the previous *Activation* on the 32 bit OS still work on the 64 bit Win10 installation?

Other questions:

a.  In order to install the upgrade--does one have to have a MS Account and access to the One Drive service--or can the install be done from a *local* account?  I saw one recommendation on *How to Geeks* that one should use the MS Account or otherwise *half* of the Win10 new features will not be functional.  But, they did not mention how to *not* use a MS Account--and I could not find other sources that discuss whether or not that option of not using a MS Account is even available--any experience with that?

b.  I saw one recommendation to pull the internet connection--wired or wireless--during the installation--and wait until the installation was done before connecting--any thoughts on that--does that make any sense or difference?

c.  During installation, apparently there's an option to perform an update to the newly installed Win10 OS, from within the installation program,--or you can elect to *wait* until (some unspecified) time later to do it after the installation--any thoughts on that option?

d.  I saw one report that Win10 on its own, performed a BIOS firmware update automatically on behalf of the user without any request to approve of such action--anyone even heard of that?  Just doesn't seem likely--but Win10 is a whole new approach to computing--so, just wondering if that can actually take place?!









 

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Re: Win10 Upgrade--How best to do test it out?
Reply #14 - Jul 26th, 2016 at 2:01pm
 
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NightOwl

Quote:
I have not been able to download the 64 bit version of Win10 installation iso--fails at the over 90% downloaded.  The *retry* option fails as well.  The 32 bit version downloaded without issue.


I used the MediaCreationTool version 10.0.10586.0 and it offers to create the tool for 32-bit, 64-bit or both. Which options did you get?

I choose to create a bootable UFD, not an ISO and for 64-bit only.

Quote:
a.  In order to install the upgrade--does one have to have a MS Account and access to the One Drive service--or can the install be done from a *local* account?


I have no MS Account and my system was upgraded and activated w/o issues.

Quote:
b.  I saw one recommendation to pull the internet connection--wired or wireless--during the installation--and wait until the installation was done before connecting--any thoughts on that--does that make any sense or difference?


That's what I recommend but simply to be able to create an Image prior to letting Windows Destroy ... Roll Eyes ... sorry ... Undecided ... I mean Windows Update loose.

Quote:
c.  During installation, apparently there's an option to perform an update to the newly installed Win10 OS, from within the installation program,--or you can elect to *wait* until (some unspecified) time later to do it after the installation--any thoughts on that option?


I saw no such option but I upgraded to version 10586. If you upgrade to 10240 (the initial release), I guess that the first task for WU is to install version 10586. Maybe that's what's referred to?

On the other questions, I have nothing to contribute.
 

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