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Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot freeze (Read 104283 times)
Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #45 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:23pm
 
Radministrator, some additional feedback on
your comments
:

“Where am I asserting my opinion as fact?”: 
I am reacting to two prior posts in which you said [1] “We're simply saying that it's NOT AS RELIABLE as imaging from DOS,” and [2] “imaging from Windows is inherently less-reliable than imaging from DOS.”  It sure seems that the statements express an option asserted as fact.  Nonetheless, in fairness, I do acknowledge that you have appropriately linked this thread to the “controversial” term in the Ghost Guide.

“You used the word ‘truth’ in your statement ‘both are equally reliable’”: 
Technically speaking, you’re right – but only because you did not present the full context of the comment which was “truth be told, the reality is most likely that both are essentially equally reliable”.  Note the phrase “most likely” – it was intended to convey my own personal opinion of the situation.  It most definitely is not a claim that I know “truth” (in this or in any other matter).  My apologies if it appeared otherwise.

“Does that mean it's more reliable?”: 
I believe that the following has already been stated about ten times, but I will repeat again:  no one is claiming that Windows-based imaging is more reliable than DOS-based imaging – only that it is not necessarily less reliable.

“nothing to do with technical enlightenment, but rather profit margins”: 
It is theoretically possible (but not commonsensical) that a company would, on the one hand, be market-focused and customer-centric and, on the other hand, manufacture and sell a technically less reliable product.  It could occur, but it would represent a significant misalignment of business strategy and manufacturing.

“The Corporate version of Ghost”: 
I have no ‘inside’ knowledge on this subject, only what I have read on the Symantec website and elsewhere.  The Symantec LiveState Recovery Advanced Server is described as the “formerly V2i Protector Server Edition,” and thus appears to be a derivate of the Drive Image technology.  A key feature is described as “create real-time 'while you work' backups” – what you and I would call “hot imaging.”  It also does not appear that Symantec has discontinued the sale of the corporate version of the old Ghost, which obviously would not make good business sense.

Kind regards,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #46 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:37pm
 
I am reacting to two prior posts in which you said [1] “We're simply saying that

(I'm really digging this yellow thing.) The words "We're saying" imply an opinion .. as in "We assert our opinion to be ... ." Hard to believe you feel I'm promoting my opinion as fact when I have tried hard to make it clear that it is only my opinion. On the other hand, you use words like "truth" and "reality" in your statements, which are words typically used with factual data. In this respect, you ssem to be using a verbal slight-of-hand .. using words that are both definitive & conditional in the same sentence. This might confuse the casual reader. (I had a class in "Logic" in college, so I'm sentitive to these subtle persuasions.)

Nonetheless, in fairness, I do acknowledge that ...
Thx for tossing me that bone. I feel like I earned it.

It is theoretically possible (but not commonsensical) that a company would,


It's *entirely* commonsensical, because that's what companies do: they make profits. It's their lifeblood. If Symantec could triple sales, while at the same time tripling support calls, would that be in their best interest? Of course! Notice that Symantec no longer has their forums. They shut them down. Why do you think this is? Do you feel this was a "customer-centric" decision? (I certainly don't.) Support calls are now $30 per incident.
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #47 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:50pm
 
Radministrator, some additional feedback on
your comments
:

“I've read *hundreds* of threads over the years on the subject… and the general consensus is that Ghost is far more RELIABLE than Drive Image”: 
This is why the United States has Democrats and Republicans.  Different individuals can look at the same set of ‘facts’ and arrive at very different conclusions.  I suspect that I read the same forums as you (albeit maybe not as frequently), and I don’t see that the quantity of observed problems with DOS-based imaging is less than the quantity of observed problems with Windows-based imaging (even though the number of Windows-based imaging installations is likely greater).  From the latter, I am excluding, of course, the faux-Windows approaches which involve a Windows front-end to a DOS product.

“Here's where we disagree”: 
Yep, I agree that we disagree.  Wink 

“We say DOS-based imaging is logically & experientially more reliable than Windows-based imaging”:

[1] Who number among the royal “we”?
[2] Your statement may be true.  However, I personally have not read anything herein that indicates that it is true.  And, there is a substantial set of arguments to be made suggesting that it is not true, as I have attempted to articulate in my prior posts.

Kind regards,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #48 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:55pm
 
and I don’t see that the quantity of observed problems with DOS-based imaging is less than
Didn't think you would.  Wink

Okay, I feel we both made our case and the bones of contention have been picked clean. Let the reader make his own decision.
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #49 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 7:07pm
 
Radministrator, some additional feedback on
your comments
:

“’We're saying’ imply an opinion”: 
I didn’t read it that way, but I do accept your explanation that you intended it to be an opinion.

“If Symantec could triple sales, while at the same time tripling support calls, would that be in their best interest?  Of course!”: 
Radministrator, I am sorry to say, this view of marketing is at least 10 years out of date with the current mainstream thinking as taught in the top business schools.  I recommend that you enter the search terms “Customer Relationship Management” or “Relationship Marketing” into Amazon.com, and you’ll find many hundreds of books that argue the exact opposite of your thesis.  You can generate more profits by sacrificing product quality or customer satisfaction today, but you can’t generate organic business growth tomorrow by so doing.  You will find it exceedingly difficult to cite an authority that disagrees with this viewpoint.

Kind regards,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #50 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 7:12pm
 
“Okay, I feel we both made our case and the bones of contention have been picked clean.  Let the reader make his [or her] own decision”: 
At last, something upon which we both agree!

Peace,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #51 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 8:15pm
 
"Dan, your success with DOS-based imaging is quite impressive:  over 1,000 successful restores!"


As I write this, I've got a client's desktop on the workbench right now with an image restore in progress.  (Not Ghost, though, this one's BootIt NG--yet another "outside-of-Windows" imager.)

I carry around a small DOS bootable CD with the DOS versions of PartitionMagic 8, DriveImage 2002, Ghost 2003, and Savepart 2.91.  (BootIt NG is on a separate bootable CD because that's not a DOS program.)  What I use depends on what the client has.  If he's purchased a legitimate license to Ghost (whether or not he's installed it), I'll use Ghost on my boot CD when working on his system.  If he's purchased none of the above, I use the freeware Savepart.  For me, it's a tremendous time savings not to have to install something or wait for Windows to boot to use something.

BTW, in the past two weeks I've done about 30 restores on a single computer.  On my own time, above and beyond what I've done during the workday.  Why would one computer need 30 restores?  See here, and perhaps you'll get the idea how it's been used:

www.goodells.net/dellutil/


"Suppose that hypothetically “John Smith” adds a post to this forum later today in which he reports successfully having created and restored 10,000 Windows-based images over the years (e.g., using products such as Drive Image 7.0, True Image 8.0, and Ghost 9.0) . . . would you now accept the thesis that Windows-based imaging is no less reliable than DOS-based imaging?"


Absolutely!  It won't even have to be that extreme.  I've read occasional reports of hot-imaging screwups, but as I said, it's still too early for me to see any pattern there.  (Except for DI 7--that quickly earned a reputation as a debacle; they didn't discover until after it was released that it couldn't even write to CDR!)  I've personally had none to clean up so far--few of my friends/clients have made that move yet.

 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #52 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 10:20am
 
Quote:
"... (Except for DI 7--that quickly earned a reputation as a debacle; they didn't discover until after it was released that it couldn't even write to CDR!)...

Dan Goodell

Am I being somewhat rational or totally irrational for being exceedingly leary of Norton Ghost 9.0 due to my belief - well-founded or ill-founded - that Ghost 9.0 is a direct lineal descendant of
PowerQuest Drive Image 7.0x
.

El Pescador
 

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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #53 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 12:11pm
 
Depends who you ask.

I say: rational.
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #54 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 4:26pm
 
You might be interested in knowing that the Symantec Knowledge Base contains 413 support articles for Ghost 2003 – but only 90 for Ghost 9.0.

Therefore, it would seem that Ghost 2003 is 4.6 times more problematical than Ghost 9.0, wouldn’t it?  For the sake of argument, let's assume the ratio is only half that amount.  Wouldn't the conclusion nonetheless be the same?

To one and all, I say:  may you never need a backup, may the winds of Microsoft blow gently upon your back, and may the pure light of Symantec guide your way onSmiley

Kind regards,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #55 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 5:28pm
 
" but only 90 for Ghost 9.0"

Give it time.

"the winds of Microsoft"

When the winds of Microsoft blow, it's time to take cover.
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #56 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 6:32pm
 
Okay you 'Huffers and Puffers'


I thought you had finished exploring the finer 'Symantec' points of WinXP Ghost 9.x vs DOS Ghost 2003--

But the fact remains that the original issue of this thread has not been resolved in a manner other than a third party, DOS based, masterboot record editor--that based on odeen's criteria, makes Ghost 9.x 'irrepairably broken', but at least 'recoverable from' software.

This is not an uncommon situation where someone wants to put a HDD on another machine which has an open HDD connector in order to restore a backed-up image file, and then putting that HDD back on the system it came from.

Are there no Ghost 9'ers out there who have done this successfully who can share the correct procedure to avoid the no-boot problem because Ghost 9.x has to operate under WinXP, and WinXP assigns a drive letter to the HDD when the system is booted, and that drive letter follows the HDD back to the other machine causing a no-boot situation?


According to Pleonasm, he's convinced that there are more Ghost 9'ers out there than there are DOS Ghost 2003'ers--where are they!?  They don't seem to answer the call for help.
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #57 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 8:31pm
 
NightOwl, I’m only speculating, but maybe there are fewer Ghost 9.0 users visiting this support forum because in general they are having fewer problems?  As I’m sure you will agree, most individuals who visit a support forum only do so when they experience a problem.

My speculation is really not as hard to believe as you might think.  Here is a fun experiment to try.  Go to Google and search within “Groups” for (A) “Ghost 9.0” and (B) “Ghost 2003.”  As you know, this inquiry searches a broad range of user forums and communities.  These forums and communities, by and large, contain user initiated questions & answers.  Want to guess how many ‘questions’ you’ll uncover for Ghost 9.0?  The answer is 2,180.  Now, how about Ghost 2003?  Would you believe that the answer is 19,000 an 871% increase?

Please forgive my language, but a Web search by Google of “Ghost 9.0 sucks” returns zero results.  Amazingly, there are no recorded instances on the world wide web of "sucks" directly associated with "Ghost 9.0".  None.  On the other hand, a search of “Ghost 2003 sucks” returns 37.

Don't you agree that these results are consistent with the fact that the Symantec Knowledge Base contains 460% more support articles for Ghost 2003 than Ghost 9.0?

Finally, consider that in January, 2005 the readership of Redmond Magazine (comprised of IT professionals) voted Ghost 9.0 “the Best of the Best” with 59.5 percent of the vote - "a landslide victory," according to the magazine editors - and "the largest percentage of votes of any product in any category" (see http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=89422&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=661907&h...; IT professionals prefer Ghost 9.0.  Are they collectively mistaken in their assessment?

Which community – Ghost 9.0 or Ghost 2003 - is experiencing greater reliability?  I will defer to the judgment of the readers of this post.

Kind regards,
Pleonasm
 
 
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #58 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 8:53pm
 
Pleonasm

Quote:
I thought you had finished exploring the finer 'Symantec' points of WinXP Ghost 9.x vs DOS Ghost 2003--


Guess not!
  Grin
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
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Pleonasm
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Re: Ghost 9.0 restoration problem-Windows boot fre
Reply #59 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 2:57pm
 
As the Radministrator said, the "
bones of contention have been picked clean
."  Wink

I have sent an email to Symantec support asking for technical information on "hot imaging" and why that may be more or less reliable than DOS-based imaging.  As you know, a response may or may not occur, and the resulting content may or may not be valuable.  Nonetheless, if I learn anything, I'll certaintly share it with the forum.

I do recall seeing a quasi-technical document on this subject once before (on the Symantec website?), but I can't find it now.

In the interim, we can agree:  "it is far, far better to image than not to image at all."

Cheers,
Pleonasm
 
 
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