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Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0 (Read 26325 times)
chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #15 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 12:18pm
 
Hi El Pescador
Thanks for the input ..last night I went thru everything with a fine tooth comb including the hibernation folder 64 mb
and the temp file in windows hardly anything to write home about  , well cookies 10 kb, history 64 kb, t.i.f. I emptyed those out the other day , 10 kb , two folders both empty 0 kbs and 16 text docs ms16 df all 1 kb each so those are all more or less just about  empty and recycle bin is empty as well
.Brian said system restore might have gone nuts and ate 2 gig  in one fell swoop ? (note: my ram is 2 gig does that have anything to do with it ?)   thats the only thing my suspicions are focus on  now
I guess if thats the case nothing can be done .
1-If I disabled it and then after partition my C drive
enabled it .. would the system restore go back to normal ?
2-Is there anyway that you know of where I can see how much gig the system restore is gobbling up ?
( I can not disable the hibernation files perminently because the UPS -APC files need to go in that folder , I guess If I diabled it temporaraly its ok , but I wonder if and how I would get it back enabled ??
3- any way to see how much gig the page files/swap files are using ?
( have you put the page files on a partition ?)
I know a lot of people do this ....
I saw a program called disc mapper $50.00 its telling you what takes up space in your hardrive
after I partition I may get one of those programs there are a few others just as good but cheaper  ... Cry
 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #16 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 2:19pm
 
chuckychez wrote on Jun 4th, 2005 at 12:18pm:
"... any way to see how much gig the page files/swap files are using ? ... ( have you put the page files on a partition ?) ... I know a lot of people do this ..."

Right-click on My Computer > drop down to Properties > left-click on Advanced Tab in System Properties > left-click on Settings button in Performance section > left-click on Advanced Tab in Performance Options > scan down to Virtual Memory where: Total paging file size for all drives: nnnn MB

I hit the Change button on mine and set up new pagefiles 2.67 X my RAM for both MIN and MAX values to reside on each of the two logical drives in my extended partition, and then REMOVED the pagefile on C: drive (I had to do a restart for changes to take effect).

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chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #17 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 2:57pm
 
Thanks El Pescador
You Probably know , I have a 250 gig hdd divided in four section the C and 3 partitions
The system restore was set on max which is the default this was the setting on each drive and its using 28 gig total , the C drive cuz its so small is using 1.20 gig and the E partition is using 16.199 gig
I think I know what ate all my space on the C drive , it was those darn hibernation files , its 2 gig as of now  I have no idea what it was before I installed those power chute APC UPS files but those files were only 5 mb according to windows explorer ( the tech said 22 mb)
my page files if it is the amount of ram I have then  in Megabytes mb's multiplied by 1.5 %  I think thats the default calculation ?? ( which comes to 3 gig )
(2 x 1.5 = 3)  so I probably got 3 gig on my page files in the C drive ( there is no way to actually see the amount I don't suppose ?)
I guess I could put the swap files on the far end of the drive in the F partition where I plan to store an image copy of ghost files backup of C later on ).............................................

I wonder if I changed my mind if the computer ran slower could I put it back on C from F partition after I enlarge my C drive ?
So you choose to use 2.67 x your ram , whats your ram ?
I guess it must be one gig  thats 2.67 gig max and min on each drive 2.67 x 1=2.67 gig
I  gues I could use the same numbers on mine right even tho I have 2 gig of ram 2.67 max and min on the F partition would that be a plan ?
I did not know you could put it on two partitions ??
Is it ok to just have it on my F partition only ?
Is it ok if it shares space with the ghost backup image
the F partition is the furthest away from C ,
is it better to have it on D along with my data folders ?
 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #18 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 3:39pm
 
chuckychez

'Where have all the gigabytes gone, long time passin'...Where have all the gigabytes gone, long time ago...'

(all together now--you all know the tune to 'Where have all the flowers gone...--so even if you don't know the words--hummm along.....   Wink !)

But, seriously...

Quote:
Can anyone tell me how much Mbs ghost 9.0 uses up on the C drive ?


I have seen somewhere that the installed files take up about 80 MB's or so...but don't quote me on that.

That's if you 'accept' the 'default' install location for where to install the files--for many programs, you can 'over-ride' the default install location during the install program--it's when the install program reaches the point where it says something to the effect 'Will install to the following location...'.  But next to that path for the installation files, there is a 'Browse' button that will allow you to select an alternative location--and that can be on another partition other than your OS partition.

I often put programs that I have the the installation CD's or files available for reinstalling easily on a separate partition--I only keep 'core' programs such as main programs I use daily on the OS partition.  Other programs that I do not use often, and have the installation CD's handy, I put on a different partition.

But, enough of that--I'm wondering where all your GB's are going?!

I have most of the main programs you have mentioned installed on my OS partition, plus more....and I am only using just over 5 GB's!  So why are you using so much more?

The big file creating programs I can think of are scanned images (1-5 MB per image), digital photos (1-3 MB per picture), music files (MP3's--1-5 MB per song), digital videos (home movies from camcorders--gads--huge files!--could be gigabytes in size!)

Thinking about what programs you use (you mentioned a scanner program--are you saving image files from scanned material?  Where are you storing those saved images? 

If you always accept the 'default' installation location--usually the program also sets the default data storage location to the same directory as the program directory.  You can usually change that under the programs 'Options' or 'Preferences' menu settings--but you have to do that 'manually' for each program.

So--the bottom line to this one post is:

are you using programs such as scanners, digital photos, music files, or home videos....and are the files being saved to C:\?
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are  Wink !
(This is an old *NightOwl* user account--not in current use.  Current account is NightOwl without a dash at the end.)
 
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chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #19 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 4:20pm
 
Night Owl ,
You made laugh for about five minutes .Believe me thats what I need more then anything about now is a good belly laugh
Never knew you had such a good sense of humor .
No I did install my chess game and vcom system suite , encarta , and streets and maps on my E partition 130 gig using the technique you stated in your comment
I did uninstall all of  them in anticipation of using pm 8
And Yes I do have all my music files, photos very large ,and E mail funny animated picture inserts plus the adobe reader lots of  adobe manuals and about 1000 word documents on everything but the kitchen sink all on my D partition 70 gig .
On C is nero and roxio stuff and all the microsoft apps word, works, money,picture it , my printer software files , my scanner software files and adobe acrobat reader program thats all I can think of right now . the only thing I can work with is page files , hibernation files, and system restore and uninstall my scanner program files . I think the big bad hibernation  hiberfils (he is as bad as the kookie monster ) was hungry yesterday and ate 2.17 gig of my C drive hibernation  got two gig on it right now
maybe it had zero the day before yesterday.
I don't know what the heck happened its just wierd.. thats why I am always hesitiant to try anything new with computers you never know whats going to happen when you click or check off anything  ..
 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #20 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 4:54pm
 
chuckychez wrote on Jun 4th, 2005 at 2:57pm:
"... so I probably got 3 gig on my page files in the C drive ( there is no way to actually see the amount I don't suppose ?) ... So you choose to use 2.67 x your ram , whats your ram ? ..."

I have 768 MB of RDRAM on the PC in question.  To actually see the space encumbered by a pagefile, do an "across-the-board" SEARCH for pagefile.sys on all logical drives at once.

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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #21 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 5:31pm
 
chuckychez, I hope you don't mind my repetition. Turn off System Restore and Hibernation. As far as System Restore is concerned, you don't need a half baked backup solution when you have Ghost. Hibernation files are cleared when you reboot. I've turned off Hibernation on my laptop as well. I see no reason to use it.

This will give you at least 3 GB of extra space.
 
 
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chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #22 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 6:10pm
 
Hi Brian
I decided to disable hibernation just by doing that alone should give me (I think two gig)  that should give me enough room to install ghost thats all I want to do at this point and then use PM 8 to enlarge my C drive . and continue where I left off  Friday before getting screwed up by installing ghost 2003 and those UPS power chute files(5 mb) only five mbs and I wind up loosing 2.17 gig , go figure ??

I wonder If I disabled hibernation and I found that I  needed it later for those ups files which I need to reinstall
Do you think I could I re enable it after doing what I need to do with PM and the C drive would I still see the hibernation tab and the box to check it on or off I am kinda nervous about it dissappearing from power folder altogether   ..


Brian could I just uninstall system restore from my E partiton or is it all the drives or nothing ? I think its all or nothing !
 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #23 - Jun 4th, 2005 at 6:17pm
 
Hibernation on/off is as simple as tick/no tick

You can have System Restore running on individual drives and not others. I'm not sure where the System Restore files for your E: drive are kept, C: or E:

Try turning E: off and see if you get more free space on C:
 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #24 - Jun 5th, 2005 at 3:12am
 
chuckychez

Glad I tickled your funny bone--I hoped I would--one of the better medicines in life  Wink !

I'm going to try to address a number of your questions you have raised in this thread--but I'm going to limit my answers to a single topic per post.....

So...let's talk about the 'Page File' (aka 'Swap File')....

First of all, the page file was created to make more room for Windows to store data--it's 'psuedo RAM'--Windows pretends you have more room to have programs 'running in the background'.  When you open another program without closing one--and you do not have enough installed RAM, Windows 'swaps out' some other program to the HDD to make room for the new program you have told Windows to load and run.

Now, back when I got my first Windows PC, I had a huge 8 MB's of RAM!  Swapping out to the page file was really common place.  Programs were, by design, 'optimized' to use the 'swap file' so they played nice with other competing programs.

Fast forward to today--you got WHAT!!!!!!!!?--2 GIGABYTES of RAM!!!!!!WOW!!!!  I have a miserable 512  Cry .  You have 4 times as much as I do!

But to my point--I have 10 programs up and running right now (usually I don't have quite so many open programs--I'm old school in that if I'm not using a program, I close it, so Windows has more memory available to do other things faster)--those 10 programs are in addition to the 'background services' that WinXP is running.  I have set my page file memory at 525 MB's--and even with all those programs and 'background services' running I'm only using 276 MB's of the page file.

How do I know that--you ask?  Ah, glad you asked.  Now I'm using WinXP Pro--so if you have the Home version, things might not be exactly the same--but mostly I think it is...

So do this:  hold down you 'Ctrl' and 'Alt' key together, and then tap the 'Delete' key.  That should bring up what's called 'Windows Task Manager'.  If it's the first time you have used it, usually it starts with the 'Applications' tab showing.  'Click' on the 'Performance' tab and you should get this screen:

...

'PF Usage' = Page File Usage = 276 MB's.  See that long straight line over on the right--that's a graph of page file useage over the last couple minutes--not changing much is it?

So let's go over some of the page file 'issues':

1.  You need a 'big' page file to improve performance.  

Actually, to really improve performance, you need more RAM until your system stops using the page file except for the needed base line usage (see 2. below).

If you are using the page file a lot, so you think you should make it bigger--it really means you do not have enough RAM for the way you use your computer.  (By the way, you probably have enough RAM  Wink !)


2.  If I install enough RAM--I do not need a page file.  

Well, sort of--many programs are 'optimized' to use the page file, which means they put a directory structure in the page file when the program first loads so just in case the system says it has to 'swap out' that particular program--the directory structure has already be established in the page file--so it's a faster swap out.

If you do not have a page file to hold those 'just in case' directory structures--certain programs will complain and/or 'crash' if they don't find a page file.


3.  You have to have a 'minimum' size page file on the OS partition (usually the C:\ partition).  

Like all things Windows--that depends.  For the average home user--you probably do not need a page file on the C:\ OS partition.

If you are developing software that you are testing--and it's causing memory crashes and faults in the 'kernel', then you will want a 'memory dump' to trouble shoot those problems.  Windows default behavior is to put those 'memory dumps' into the page file on the OS partition.  So, in this case you want a page file on your OS partition.

Or, if you are working with a 'tech support', and they want you to generate that 'memory dump' to trouble shoot a crashing problem you are experiencing with their software--then, you the home user, will need the page file on the OS partition.
 
(But, in my experience--this will be rare--tech support will routinely blame the hardware venders  Cheesy --and they do not try to actually trouble shoot problems with their software--why do they even have tech support anymore!)


Otherwise, you probably do not need it on the OS partition.

(See the very last part of this post as to how to handle the 'memory dumps'.)

I have not had a page file on my OS in several years now, starting with Win98se and now with WinXP Pro.


4.  But the default Windows amount it 1.5 times the amount of installed RAM--shouldn't I be using that amount?

Yup--that's true--1.5 times 2 GB's = 3 GB's--that's what Windows is going to set aside for you for the page file--but, I'm betting you are probably using less than 300 MB's if you check.

It's probably not all on the C:\ drive--you will find it's spread out between all the partitions on your system if Windows is 'handling' the page file for you.

Basically, the more RAM you have installed, the less likely you need as much room in the page file.


5.  But I have multiple users and I use Fast Switching so other users can log in, but the work of the user logging out is saved, and he can come back later and sign back on with everything the way it was when he signed off.

This is a special case where you will need a large page file--rule of thumb here--1/2 the amount of RAM per user who will use the Fast Switching.  So, if you have 4 users who will be saving their work using Fast Switching, and 2 GB's of RAM, you would need a page file of 4 GB's.  Monitor how much of the page file is actually used regularly, and adjust your page file accordingly.


So how do I manage the page file?
 

Right Click on 'My Computer', and select 'Properties'

Select the 'Advanced' tab

You will see a box labeled 'Performance', click on 'Settings'

...


Then click on the 'Advanced' tab

...


Down at the bottom is a box labeled 'Virtual memory' (another term for the 'page file')

Click on the 'Change' button:

...


So now you will see all your partitions and what size page file is placed on each one.  (Actually, I think a 'page file size' will only be listed if you have specified a 'custom size'--if Windows is controlling the page file, then it's 'dynamic' and changes size based on demand.)   Below I have two screen shots side by side showing the first 6 partitions on the left side and the other 6 partitions on the right.

...

To make changes, select each partition one at a time.  Choose 'Custom size', 'System managed size', or 'No pageing file'.  And then press 'Set'.

If you choose 'Custom size', you then have to enter the size in MB's for that partition.

One final setting--back up at the first screen shot of the 'System Properties', the bottom box labeled 'Startup and Recovery'--click on the 'Settings' button and you get:

...

Remember, I talked about the 'memory dumps' if you are trouble shooting crashing programs earlier in the discussion above--this is where you tell Windows how to handle those dumps.  
I choose '(none)' myself
.

If you choose any of the other three choices, you will see that the 'Dump file:' is going to be directed to the system root directory--which is usually C:\ and it will be inside the 'page file' as the file named 'MiniDump' for the 'Small memory dump (64 KB), or 'Memory.dmp' for the other two options.

If you are going to choose anything other than '(none)', you need a page file on your OS partition large enough to hold that dump file in order to keep Windows from choking if you have a crash.  A 'Kernel memory dump' requires 200 MB,  and a 'Complete memory dump' requires the size of your installed RAM.  (Alternatively--you can change the 'path' where to save the memory dump in the box labeled 'Dump file' to another location, and then the OS page file would not be an issue.)

One final setting change--I uncheck the 'Automatically restart' box.  If you have a crash and this is checked, your system automatically re-boots and you do not get to see the error message that may have been displayed--I want to see that error message, if possible--and then I will use 'Ctrl-Alt-Delete' to re-boot, or hit the 'Reset' button.

Bottom line--the page file is highly over rated as a 'performance' enhancement issue with most newer computers with 256 MB RAM or more--but it depends on your program useage--monitor how much you use the page file, and adjust the size as needed.
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are  Wink !
(This is an old *NightOwl* user account--not in current use.  Current account is NightOwl without a dash at the end.)
 
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chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #25 - Jun 5th, 2005 at 11:45am
 
WOW !
Thank You Night Owl
What a great explanation of the paging files and what wonderful  graphics , its almost like you standing over my shoulder telling me step by step what to do .
I need to look into the windows task manager preformance I never really understood this before
I am not doing any high powered extra ordinary stuff with my computer mainly mudane outlook express opening e mails sending e mails with inserting graphics in them composing letters,  internet explorer & using  this forum and I use goggle to find out things on lots of different web sites and I  copy and paste to word documents ,I do my banking , balancing checkbook in M.S My Money and works spreadsheets for my budjet, tax, chess , music , photos, nero, roxio burning cd’s , backing up my docs folder and  its not unusual for me to have ten items minimized in my taskbar all related like three different e mails a  outlook express  , 3 internet explorer web sites 2 word documents copying and pasting using office clipboard and D drive
where personally created data resides and some word docs or folders minimized from D drive[/u]


Ok enough of the small talk down to bussiness
I would just do it like I see on the graphics ..
Set it on 1- none “write debugging information” in the drop down scroll box set it to “complete memory dump” is that ok ?
2- tick off overwrite any existing file
3- and “ dump file underneath ” “%systemroot%\MEMORY.DUMP” in that box
4-does that pop in there automatically  when choose to “complete memory dump” ? Is that what none is top ?

5- So set C to 0 ( 0 ) on E and D partition
6- and put it on F partition together on the same partition I am going to put the ghost backup image files
E is too big 130 gig and I plan to make it 10 gig and put four programs in there and D ( I will make that 170 gig)  is for my own data so that leave F 24 gig Unless I put it on E together with my programs .. Not sure what to do there
7--and max ? min ?
I don't know what amount I should give it  I know that you have ( 525 min and 525 max ) with 512 ram but I have 2 GB
In my case with two gig I now have total paging file size of 2046 mbs for my two gig of memory , would that mean 2046x1.5=3069 ?   
( I saw a recomendation that said two gig should be set to 4095 max it did not say what the minimum should be ?
I will have to work on figuring out the right amt. ?

I know it supposed to be ideal to have it on a second hardrive  rather then on a partition on the same drive
and it should be close to the C drive on the hardrive as possible
and its also better to have it on a dedicated drive to prevent fragmentation but I can not do this or choose not to anyway so to prevent fragmentation I could always defrag that partion .

question : If for some reason things don't work out I wonder if I can go back to the default again or is the situation once you change it you can never go back again ?

 
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #26 - Jun 5th, 2005 at 12:15pm
 
chuckychez

Quote:
question : If for some reason things don't work out I wonder if I can go back to the default again or is the situation once you change it you can never go back again ?


The whole point of my outline is to let you know you can change it, re-change it, change it again--at will--as often as you like--now that you see where to do it!

Quote:
I would just do it like I see on the graphics ..  
Set it on 1- none “write debugging information” in the drop down scroll box set it to “complete memory dump” is that ok ?  
2- tick off overwrite any existing file  
3- and “ dump file underneath ” “%systemroot%\MEMORY.DUMP” in that box  
4-does that pop in there automatically  when choose to “complete memory dump” ? Is that what none is top ?


Those are two different screen shots--side by side to show what information is in that 'settings' dialog box.

But read carefully--
I
set the 'Write debugging information' to '(none)'.


The right side screen shot was to show where Windows will put the dump file if you choose to have Windows do that.

Quote:
I know it supposed to be ideal to have it on a second hardrive  rather then on a partition on the same drive  
and it should be close to the C drive on the hardrive as possible  
and its also better to have it on a dedicated drive to prevent fragmentation but I can not do this or choose not to anyway so to prevent fragmentation I could always defrag that partion .


This is why I said the page file settings are over-rated as far as performance is concerned--with 2 GB's of RAM, you are going to use the page file very little--you will gain very little (nothing?) by worrying about where and how much of a page file you have--as long as you have enough for a minimum.

Use Windows Task Manager to see how much you are really using when you have all your programs open (let's say for example 300 MB's)--double that amount for starters (so, 600 MB's)--put the page file on your largest non OS partition--set the max and min to '600'--set all other partitions to 'no pagefile'--see how things go--monitor the page file useage--if no problems--move on!

(By the way--if you set the max and min to the same value--you will no longer have to worry about 'fragmentation', due to the page file--at least, because the page file will be a defined and fixed size--so it can not use random space on the partition when it is re-sizing dynamically--it's the constant dynamic re-sizing of the page file that causes increased fragmentation to occur because the page file keeps changing what space it's using on the partition if not 'fixed' in size.)
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are  Wink !
(This is an old *NightOwl* user account--not in current use.  Current account is NightOwl without a dash at the end.)
 
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #27 - Jun 5th, 2005 at 2:42pm
 
NightOwl -

chuckychez ain't the only one doing some learnin' here ... LOL !!!

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chuckychez
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Re: Accidently installed NG03 instead of 9.0
Reply #28 - Jun 5th, 2005 at 3:04pm
 
Good El Pescador
At your service... always glad to help
I looked at the preformance tab and decerned that my cpu usage with no programs minimized in taskbar , just looking at desktop not doing anything or using anything  I got these stats
page file history around 180 mb
paged 32640
unpaged 9130
system cache 318850
cpu usage 0 % to 2%
 
 
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