Welcome, Guest. Please Login
 
  HomeHelpSearchLogin FAQ Radified Ghost.Classic Ghost.New Bootable CD Blog  
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print
Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE (Read 56917 times)
NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Apr 4th, 2006 at 1:14am
 
Part 1:  The Symptoms


To all

There have been multiple reports of problems with external HDD's that did not show up when a person boots to the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment (RE).

Ghost4me.John was first
here:


Brian reported a different problem
here:


And when I got my copy of Ghost 10, I reported the problem
here:


I think I was the first to report that this problem effected Firewire HDD's as well as USB external HDD's.

This is of great concern if your OS becomes un-bootable for some reason, and you hope to be able to recover a functional back-up image of your OS from an image stored on your external HDD--because you have to use the RE to restore your OS partition  Shocked !


There's been much speculation as to what is the cause of this problem, who's to blame, and how to *fix it*.  It's obviously a Ghost 10 problem--because it does not occur at all in Ghost 9's RE.  

Ghost4me.John felt that it must have something to do with the new version of Microsoft's WinPE (Pre-install Environment) that is used to boot from the Recovery Disk CD to the Symantec Recovery Environment (RE).  Brian pointed out that if everything showed up okay in the Ghost 10 RE, then the various partitions and drives had the same drive letters in the RE as they did in WinXP.  That made me wonder if Ghost 10 was somehow *marking* the HDD's so they could read that information when the RE booted and could then assign those drive letters.

Now, several fixes (workarounds?) have been reported, and appear to work in most instances (perhaps all?!):

Ghost4me.John tested and found that by editing the external HDD's disk ID that the external HDD then showed up in the RE--see
here:
 I can confirm that this fixed my problem of not seeing my external HDD's as well.

Brian found that by assigning new drive letters before those of the USB Card Reader, then his missing external HDD now shows in the RE--see
here:

Quote:
Booted to Windows and in Disk Management I changed K and L back to G and H, the original USB external HD drive letters before the card reader was plugged in.

Booted to Ghost 10 RE and the USB external HD was seen as G and H.

Again, I can confirm that this also made my external HDD's show up in the RE also.

There appears to be two separate and distinct issues for the Ghost 10 RE:

1.  Ghost4me.John has determined that the new WinPE that is used for the Ghost 10 RE reserves two drive letters for itself:  X:\ for the optical boot drive--regardless of any drive letter assignment in WinXP, and Z:\ for the MS RamDrive that WinPE loads during boot.  If you have assigned either of these drive letters to other drives in WinXP, then those drives will not show up in the Recovery Environment (RE) of Ghost 10.

Ghost4me.John also said he thought someone else had mention that drive letter S: was reserved--but, in all the testing I've done so far, the drive letter S: has not been used or reserved when booted to the Ghost 10 RE--so I have my doubts about that--if anyone can confirm that the drive letter S:\ is reserved for something in the Ghost 10 RE, please let us know.

2.  Other drive letter conflicts when other USB devices are being used, especially USB memory stick Card Readers.

I believe I have worked out *most* of the *whys and wherefores* of this issue, and how to control and avoid the problem(s).

Continue to
Part 2:  The Setup

 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 

Pleonasm
Übermensch
*****
Offline



Posts: 1619


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #1 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 12:32pm
 
NightOwl, your exceptional ability to distill and document an issue is clearly evident in the prior post.  I recommend that you add a reference to this superb summary into the FAQ thread, so that others will be able to find it easily in the weeks and months to come.
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
IP Logged
 
Rad
Radministrator
*****
Offline


Sufferin' succotash

Posts: 4090
Newport Beach, California


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #2 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 1:45pm
 
ditto.

NightOwl rocks.
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
El_Pescador
Übermensch
*****
Offline


Thumbs Up!

Posts: 1605
Bayou Country, USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #3 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 8:18pm
 
Hey - is this a great forum - or what !!!
 

...
WWW  
IP Logged
 
thorin
Technoluster
***
Offline


Novice

Posts: 162
Dallas, Texas


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #4 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 9:16pm
 
El Pecador,

It is a fantastic forum.

How you coming at getting back to your somewhat normal self?

thorin
 

thorin
 
IP Logged
 
El_Pescador
Übermensch
*****
Offline


Thumbs Up!

Posts: 1605
Bayou Country, USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #5 - Apr 4th, 2006 at 10:47pm
 
thorin wrote on Apr 4th, 2006 at 9:16pm:
"... How you coming at getting back to your somewhat normal self?..."

After spending over $300 USD on power tool rentals alone at The Home Depot just to remove our spoiled hardwood parquet flooring, just last week I finally felt that we have finally turned the corner on renovating our home.

Since we had no flood insurance - in spite of an Allstate Premier Homeowner's policy (<$2,900 received) - we are now essentially working 'out-of-pocket' as the pittance from Red Cross and FEMA have long since played out.  No contractors or permits - just friends and a single undocumented day laborer - is the mode each day in performing a task that would ultimately consume $50,000-to-60,000 were it done professionally 'on-the-up-and-up'.

CLICK HERE to read context of
"... As I drove around and looked out the car window, I felt astonished that I could be in the United States of America..."
.

CLICK HERE to read context of
"... I wonder what New Orleans will be like in fifteen years.  Until then, I need a bullet proof soul..."
.

EP
Cry
 

...
WWW  
IP Logged
 

NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #6 - Apr 6th, 2006 at 2:04am
 
Part 2:  The Setup


(Hey, thanks for the *kudos* above before I even get to the good stuff, but here's some more: )

To All

First of all, I have to qualify what I am going to say here:  My findings apply only to my system.  I suspect that the software works (functions) the same on all systems, but the way the hardware reacts and responds may depend on the different hardware that's out there--so the final output responses may vary on each individual system based on the actual components hooked up to that system.

The reason I say the above is that I am unable to duplicate some of Brian's results of his testing that he reports
here:


For instance--elsewhere he states that he has assigned his second optical drive as Z:\ in WinXP, but you will see him reporting it in the above post as M:\, O:\ and K:\--on my system, if I assign my second optical drive Z:\--it simply does not appear in Ghost 10's Recovery Environment (RE), apparently because the assigned optical drive letter Z:\ in WinXP conflicts with the *reserved* drive letter for the RamDrive in the RE.

Also, he reports this:

Quote:
With the external HD absent I plugged in a USB card reader. Drive letters assigned were G, H, I and J. In the RE the card reader drive letters were I, J, K and L. There was no G or H. The slave CD drive was M.

On my system, the only time my Card Reader drive letter assignments are *bumped* up, is if either my USB HDD and/or Firewire HDD are hooked up with the Card Reader--never when they are absent.

Quote:
Booted to Windows and the card reader drive letters were G, H, I and J and the external HD was K and L. As before.

I removed the card reader, rebooted and the USB external HD was still K and L.

Booted to RE and the USB external HD wasn’t seen at all. CD drive was K.

On my system--that was the first test I did--remove the Card Reader--and my USB HDD and Firewire HDD both show up fine once the Card Reader is removed.

So the specifics as to how your system responds may be different--but the outline of what I'm going to report and the tools you can use, should allow you to avoid the problems in the Ghost 10 RE with external HDD going *missing*.

So, what is the problem--it's a combination of the sequence that was used in hooking up your USB devices in WinXP that eventually get a *sticky* drive letter assigned, the sequence that drive letters are assigned by WinPE in the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment (RE), and how Ghost 10 tries to use the *sticky* drive letters in the RE, but apparently has not implemented *completely* the use of those *sticky* drive letters.
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 
NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #7 - Apr 6th, 2006 at 11:40pm
 
Part 3a:  The Tools for Investigation of the Problem


To All

So, how did I come to the conclusion at the end of *Part 2* above?

1.  The first tool is included in the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment (RE)!  It's Ghost v8.2 that is included so one can access *legacy* Ghost images from pre-Ghost 9.x and 10.x.

You access this program in the RE from the *Main Screen/Recover/Recover using legacy Ghost image* (its file name on the Recovery Disk is *RESTOREGHOST.EXE*).  This Ghost version is the 32-bit version--which means it can only run under a booted/functioning Windows OS, which includes the WinPE (preinstall environment) that is booted for the Ghost 10 RE--so I call this the *Ghost32 v8.2* program.

This is a very interesting program!  I do not know how to take *screen shots* in the RE, so I can only show screen shots running under WinXP:

...

In this first screen shot, the arrow points to my *hidden, primary partition* that has my Win98se OS on it--when I wish to boot to Win98se, I hide the WinXP OS partition and un-hide the Win98se OS partition and now the system boots to Win98se.  But when it's hidden, it's not assigned a drive letter.

In Ghost32 v8.2, all partitions that are *seen* by the Windows OS, but not assigned a drive letter, are shown first in the drop down list of partitions before it begins the list of partitions with drive letter assignments.  The partitions are identified by a first #--the *Disk #*, and then by a second #-- the *Partition #*--so my hidden Win98se partition is *1:2*--which is disk #1, and the 2nd partition on that disk.  

Following the *1:2* is the partition *label*--in my case *[WIN98SE]*, and then the file system--*FAT*.

After the listing of the partitions without a drive letter, then the partitions with drive letters begins with the drive letter listed first, then the disk#:partition#, then the label, then the files system--so for example *C: 1:1 [WIN_XP] NTFS drive*.

In this second screen shot, you can see most of the rest of my partition assignments as they were when I first started using Ghost32 v8.2 from the Ghost 10 Recovery Disk:

...

The first time I booted to the Ghost 10 RE, my Adaptec Firewire HDD with 2 partitions, and my Iomega USB HDD with one partition were *missing* as far as being available in any Ghost 10 recovery funcitons, but both HDD's with their partitions were present in the Ghost32 v8.2 interface without drive letters being assigned to them.

(The best way in Ghost 10's RE to see if your external HDD's are being seen is from the *Main Opening Screen/Analyze/Explore My Computer* which is essentially *Windows Explorer* for the Recovery Environment--if your USB and/or Firewire HDD have drive letter conflicts with other devices--then it/they will be missing from the directory tree.)


In WinXP, my Adaptec Firewire HDD is Disk #8 and its partitions are 8:1 and 8:2, and my Iomega USB HDD in WinXP is Disk #7 and its partition is 7:1.  But.....in the Ghost 10 RE the Adaptec Firewire HDD is now Disk #1 with partitions 1:1 and 1:2, and the Iomega USB HDD is Disk #2 with partition 2:1.

So, something very different is going on in the Ghost 10 RE compared to WinXP!

By the way, the best way to get to a list of the partitions in Ghost32 v8.2 is to click on *Local>Check>Image* like this:

...

Then click on the drop down list arrow and you can scroll all the partitions that can be seen in by Ghost32 v8.2:

...



2.  The second tool is RegEdit--the registry editor.

Continue to
Part 3b:  The Tools for Investigation of the Problem
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 
Pleonasm
Übermensch
*****
Offline



Posts: 1619


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #8 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 11:23am
 
NightOwl, a thought for consideration:  Could the use of the free VolumeID utility to change the ID of an external hard disk drive provide a mechanism to force Ghost 10 to see the hard disk drive in the recovery environment?  In other words, could the use of this utility accomplish the same outcome as that achieved through a disk edit procedure – but with greater ease and safety?
 

ple • o • nasm n. “The use of more words than are required to express an idea”
 
IP Logged
 
NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #9 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 12:06pm
 
Pleonasm

Here's the command window results of running *VolumeID.exe /?*:

Quote:

G:\Utilities\SysInternal Utilities\VolumeID\v1.xx>volumeid /?

VolumeID V2.01 - Set disk volume id
Copyright (C) 1997-1999 Mark Russinovich
http://www.sysinternals.com

usage: volumeid
[drive:]
[Id]

Id must be in the following hexadecimal format: xxxx-xxxx

Note: new NTFS volume ids will not appear in directory listings until after the
next reboot.

It's unclear as to what *[drive]* designator one is supposed to use here--the real problem will occur for someone who has the wrong *sticky* drive letters present in the registry of WinXP (which is what the Ghost 10 RE *reads* to get the *sticky* drive letters--and if the sequence is wrong--then the drive letters from the WinXP registry will conflict with the drive letters be assigned in the Ghost 10 RE).  So, if you now have a non-booting, corrupt WinXP OS and can not boot to WinXP and use the drive letters assigned in WinXP to designate which drive you want to change the *volume ID* on--you are stuck--but the Ghost 10 RE will still be *reading* your registry in the corrupt, non-booting WinXP OS--which means you will still not see your external HDD's if there are conflicting drive letter assignments.

So, the question is--can you access your HDD's in DOS, run *VolumeID*--and what [drive] designator would one use?

Also, the *VolumeID* appears to be the *Volume serial number* that shows when you open a *command window*:

Quote:

G:\Utilities\SysInternal Utilities\VolumeID\v1.xx>dir
Volume in drive G is PART_G
Volume Serial Number is A233-C8FF


Directory of G:\Utilities\SysInternal Utilities\VolumeID\v1.xx

I'm not sure that will clear the *sticky* drive letters that are derived from the *Disk ID* that Ghost4me.John refers to above.
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 
John.
Übermensch
*****
Offline



Posts: 2072


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #10 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 2:41pm
 
NightOwl wrote on Apr 7th, 2006 at 12:06pm:

which is what the Ghost 10 RE *reads* to get the *sticky* drive letters...

but the Ghost 10 RE will still be *reading* your registry

The RE does
not
read any partition's registry.  The RE is a stand-alone Windows Preinstallation Environment built and created exclusively from the boot cd and a ms-ramdrive created in memory.

Same is true of BartPE, which is a stand-alone preinstallation environment.

In a multi-partition environment, how would Ghost (or any application) know which registry hive from which partition or partitions to load?  
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
IP Logged
 

Brian
Demigod
******
Offline



Posts: 6304
NSW, Australia


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #11 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 3:51pm
 
I'm keeping quiet until NightOwl has told all.
 
 
IP Logged
 
NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #12 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 8:54pm
 
Ghost4me

Quote:
The RE does
not
read any partition's registry.  The RE is a stand-alone Windows Preinstallation Environment built and created exclusively from the boot cd and a ms-ramdrive created in memory.

Hmmmm....pretty strongly held belief statement....but, I'll let you be your own judge  Wink !

(But, I'll tip my hand--the patience of Brian is a most admirable trait!)

Quote:
Same is true of BartPE, which is a stand-alone preinstallation environment.

I have to admit, I have not used BartPE as yet--does it have the ability to report the same drive letters that you have assigned in WinXP when booted to its Preinstall Environment--or are the drive letters based on *as seen during boot* assignment of the first available drive letter like Ghost 9.x's Recovery Environment?

Quote:
In a multi-partition environment, how would Ghost (or any application) know which registry hive from which partition or partitions to load?

Indeed--how do they do this--obviously not well--because people's external HDD's are going *missing* in the RE!
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 
NightOwl-
Übermensch
*****
Offline


"I tought I saw a puddy
tat...."

Posts: 2094
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound-USA


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #13 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 9:56pm
 
Part 3b:  The Tools for Investigation of the Problem


To all

(to continue)

2.  The second tool is RegEdit--the registry editor.

A favorite website with lots of good info on *multi-booting* and more, is Dan Goodell's site:  
Understanding MultiBooting and Booting Windows from an Extended Partition
.

On this page regarding
Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters
, I recalled that Dan had a procedure to make WinXP *forget* its *sticky* drive letter assignments.  

Now he was talking about when you create and restore OS images and cause a drive letter assignment that effects the ability to boot correctly from a restored image.  

But, I wondered if this registry editing method could help with what appeared to be a *sticky* drive letter assignment gone awry.  So I reviewed his
Method #2:


Quote:
If we plan ahead, we can clear the registry's drive letter table before cloning the partition, then let 2000/XP rebuild it the next time it boots. To clear the table of partitions and drive letter assignments, use regedit to navigate to [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]. This key will contain a bunch of values like "\??\Volume{...}" and "\DosDevices\C:", etc. (See illustration above.)
Deleting all values will induce Windows to regenerate all signatures and assign fresh drive letters the next time it boots.
Thus, we clear the registry values, make the clone, and then the clone will rebuild the table the first time it boots.


So, click on *Start/Run/type "regedit"* and click OK--this will bring up the Registry Editor.

Navigate to *[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices]*.  Here, if you wish, you can select all the values in the right hand veiw screen by clicking to highlite the first item, then hold down the *shift* key, and click on the last item.  (Note:  I leave the value *(Default)* un-highlited and do not delete that value.)  Now click the right mouse button, select *delete*, and confirm your choice:

...

...


Continue to
Part 4:  The Testing Results
 

No question is stupid...but, possibly the answers are Wink !&&
 
IP Logged
 
John.
Übermensch
*****
Offline



Posts: 2072


Back to top
Re: Missing External HDD's in Ghost 10's RE
Reply #14 - Apr 8th, 2006 at 1:32pm
 
NightOwl wrote on Apr 7th, 2006 at 9:56pm:
Part 3b:  The Tools for Investigation of the Problem



As to the question of whether or not the WinPE reads the XP registry, here are results of some testing I just completed.

Case 1. The most obvious case:
 your hard drive died, you power off and install a new blank hard drive, turn your external USB2 drive on, boot from the RE cd:

Obviously, the RE can
not
read from the XP registry as it doesn't even exist.  No files exist.  I tested this case by powering off, pulling ide cables and power connectors from my 2 hard drives, and replacing with a blank drive.

Result:  Ghost 10 RE worked fine, recognized my two USB drives.  The USB drive letters were assigned sequentially, as d and e.

Case 2. I removed ALL ide cables and power cables, booted from the RE cd.

Result:  The RE environment started up normally, but did not enumerate any of the two external USB2 drives I have.  I'm assuming in this case that WinPE RE must want to have at least one IDE (or SATA) drive attached.  (this is probably a bug)

I should probably test this case with BartPE as well and see what BartPE does.

Case 3. I left my XP IDE master connected, removed my second IDE drive, and booted from the RE cd.

Result:  Ghost 10 RE worked fine, recognized my two USB drives.  The USB drive letters however were
not
assigned sequentially, as d and e.  One of them which I had assigned to k: under Windows XP, was now k again.

Conclusion for test case 3:  one of these two possibilities:
1. The RE read the disk signature DiskID and because there was a valid XP OS system/hard drive present, assigned the USB2 to the disk signature DiskID.
2. The RE read the registry of the IDE drive, and then read the disk signature DiskID.  It is hard for me to believe this because how would the RE know what hive to load?, and from which partition (if multi-boot)?

Note:  I have not heard from Dan Goodell or found documentation anywhere as to the contents of the DiskID field on hard drives; that is, whether it contains just a unique signature or contains a signature plus drive letter for XP.

Even if the RE *does* read the registry, it shouldn't.  The purpose of recovery is to recover, not to be dependent upon some external file (registry).  Fortunately, Ghost 10 does just that:  in the event of a real disaster, case #1 above applies with a new blank hard drive.

Overall conclusion:


The Ghost 10 RE (like anything) could be improved on but works well in most scenarios.  

Some would say that is not good enough, but I would suggest that that is like claiming that your DOS diskette with Ghost 2003 is screwed up because it doesn't recognize your USB hard drive.  As has been pointed out over and over, there are at least 3 different usb drivers that the user is supposed to *try* to see if they work with your configuration and diskette or cd.  

And obviously try before you really need it.  

Same is true for Ghost 10  -- you are supposed to test it first to determine if it works in your environment.

(You should also test fire extinguishers before you need them.)
 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 6
Send Topic Print