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Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore (Read 19283 times)
Hawkeye
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Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Aug 14th, 2006 at 8:06am
 
Hi,
I have a problem when I try to restore a prevoiusly made ghost-image to the disk it is made of. Everytime I get this error 40011, which means that the destination drive may be too small.

Some background story: A friend of mine uses Ghost for some time now and he told me about it and we made some backups of Windows, Suse Linux, even Solaris and restored all of them successfully to test its usefullness.

So, one week ago, I bought my own copy of Ghost 10, although I only use Ghost 2003 as a bootable backup mechanism as I have Linux installed, which won't run Ghost 10.
I have done some backups with different compressions on an external firewire/usb-disk and, as a true believer of the alknowing Murphy Wink , tried to restore these images now for testing purposes, instead of waiting for a real headcrash.
What should I say, each and every image resulted in an 40011-error.

The help pages of symantec are not really helpful, as they only offer a command line for cloning, which is not my intention.

Oh, the support for ghost 2003 was discontinued on May 31. 2006.
The Live operators wouldn't help, they said it is an unsupported version and that's it. Sad

http://service1.symantec.com/SUPPORT/ghost.nsf/docid/1999113007224925

and even google offered no help at all.

According to the command line they provided, I tried to build one on my own but they all didn't work either:

ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,sze2=V -fis -or
ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,sze2=57xxxM -fis -or
ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,szeL -fis -or

Disk 1 should be restored, partition 1 is swap, 2 is the filesystem,
disk 2, or d:\, is the usb/firewire-disk.

I have searched the net, this board, read High rad completely and low rad up to page 25, I have found nothing that would even come close to this problem.

Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance

 
 
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NightOwl
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #1 - Aug 14th, 2006 at 9:46am
 
Hawkeye

Welcome to Radified Forums!

Quote:
I have a problem when I try to restore a prevoiusly made ghost-image to the disk it is made of. Everytime I get this error 40011, which means that the destination drive may be too small.

So...you created an image of the HDD, saved to an external USB/Firewire HDD, and now you have attempted to restore that image to the original HDD on the original system--correct?

The image file was created with Ghost without any added switches?

That error occurs when you simply run Ghost without any extra added switches--correct?

In the Symantec's FAQ, have you confirmed that *
In the drive selection window, Ghost displays the disk size as smaller than the actual size
.*?

In the BIOS, is the HDD reported correctly?

Possible troubleshooting--

1.  Could put a different HDD in place of the original source HDD to see if the image can be restored successfully to a different HDD.

2.  Could try to simplify the set up--at least for testing--install an internal HDD and use it for the image backup--and then restore from it--basically eliminating the external HDD variable for testing purposes.

3.  Use a HDD disk wiping program to completely wipe the HDD so it is being setup *fresh*--Ghost 2003 has *gdisk* which can do a complete disk wipe.

 

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El_Pescador
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #2 - Aug 14th, 2006 at 9:50am
 
Hawkeye wrote on Aug 14th, 2006 at 8:06am:
"... I bought my own copy of Ghost 10, although I only use Ghost 2003 as a bootable backup mechanism as I have Linux installed, which won't run Ghost 10..."

If I were faced with your situation, for schitz und giggles I would simply boot from the
Norton Ghost 10.0 CD
and engage the legacy Backup/Restore procedure in the Windows Preinstalled Environment by following the path
'Recover > Recover Data on My Computer > Recover using a legacy Ghost image'
to perform a Ghost Recovery of the *.gho/*.ghs files created with Norton Ghost 2003.

For commentary on a novel approach to using external HDDs, click on the URL below:

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=11440...

EP
Cry
 

...
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Hawkeye
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #3 - Aug 15th, 2006 at 6:54am
 
Thanks for your quick answers.

@NightOwl

I chose the switch "all" (-ia) in the menu what to backup, as I don't know if ghost uses these switches if I mix command line and menu-settings.

I just discovered there is the switch -ial, especially for linux.

Disk size is 57231.6 MB, ghost shows a 32 at the end, for imaging and restoring alike.

As Symantec said the BIOS could be the origin of this error, i have put my HD into the Laptop of my friend (same model/Hardware, just a younger BIOS version, appr. 1/2 year[we have done this before and we were able to boot and work with it without any problems/configurations]), which resulted in the same error. (The fist time he ever saw a ghost-error)There is no possibe way to setup disk parameters in the BIOS (no menu point), it is all hidden from the user, so I assume that's where the rubber meets the road:
Quote:
-FIS ...The BIOSs on some computers do not report the existance of the last cylinder of a hard disk. When Ghost detects this inaccurancy, Ghost uses the disk size that is calculated from a diffferent, safer disk geometry to avoid possible integrity problems.
Using the size calculated from the safer disk geometry may ... cause small differnces between the source and destination disks' available space.


Another HD might be tricky, as it is smaller...(40 GB)

PS: I always wipe unused space, mostly with "dd" sometimes with "shred" (faster then "wipe") to have the progress shown.


@El_Pescador

Interesting, I didn't know this would work, I will try it asap. (My cd is still originally sealed, because I didn't know it is a bootable disk)


Although -FIS didn't work in my case, I have tested, inspired by the quote above, to leave some MB at the end of the disk unpartitioned.
IT WORKED!!!
Grin

There have some more tests to be done, but I heard of calculation errors of appr. 5 MB and I hate to have unused space around. Wink
Currently I have made a partition of 39 GB so I can test with my smaller HD and try to restore my image there.

But this is just a workaround, I would like to have a switch like "ghost.exe -idontcareerrorsiwantthisimageinstalled", especially when there are 32GB just zeroes Wink

I will report asap
 
 
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NightOwl
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #4 - Aug 15th, 2006 at 9:42am
 
Hawkeye

Quote:
Although -FIS didn't work in my case, I have tested, inspired by the quote above, to leave some MB at the end of the disk unpartitioned. IT WORKED!!!


Well, that's good to hear--but your response, though it added some new--and perhaps important insight--is confusing.

You many be mixing switches that ultimately become incompatible--so some observations--

Quote:
I chose the switch "all" (-ia) in the menu what to backup, as I don't know if ghost uses these switches if I mix command line and menu-settings.

The *-ia* switch is forcing Ghost to create a *sector-by-sector* image, which includes blank space *zeroes*, and *temp* files that a *default* image backup would normally skip to save space for the image file and speed the backup.

That switch is usually only used for forensic work, or if there's something *special* about your software/hardware that requires the restored HDD to *look* like the original in some way--certain copy protection schemes that look for code at a specific location on the HDD.

Ghost 2003, by default, is supposed to support Linux--most folks run into problems if there is a boot loader that uses a special area of the Master Boot Record (MBR) area that is normally not included when imaging with Ghost in it's default mode.  This issue can be dealt with by using the *-ib* switch, which forces Ghost to include the entire MBR area, but allows Ghost to do a *default* backup image that ignores free space zeroes and temporary files--again to save space and time.

Quote:
Disk size is 57231.6 MB, ghost
shows a 32 at the end
, for imaging and restoring alike.


The Symantec FAQ that you referenced states:

Quote:
In the drive selection window
, Ghost displays the disk size as smaller than the actual size.

That's at the *beginning*, not at the end!  May be a *mute* point, but--we are talking computers here--technical, technical--apples may not be equal to oranges  Wink !

Quote:
PS: I always wipe
unused space
, mostly with "dd" sometimes with "shred" (faster then "wipe") to have the progress shown.

You may not of meant what the above says--you may have been just trying to state what program you use--but wiping *unused space* is not the same as a *complete* HDD wipe--that includes the MBR--so the whole drive is *empty*, and you can start with a clean slate--no previous formatting or MBR or partition tables to possibly interfere.

Quote:
Although -FIS didn't work in my case, I have tested, inspired by the quote above,
to leave some MB at the end of the disk unpartitioned
.

This is where I'm confused--Ghost should handle creating the partition on its own when it's doing an image restore of a *whole drive*.  

How are you performing your image creation and restores--are you doing *disk to image* and *image to disk*, or *partition to image* and *partition image to disk partition*?

In a previous post, you said:

Quote:
According to the command line they provided, I tried to build one on my own but they all didn't work either:

ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,sze2=V -fis -or
ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,sze2=57xxxM -fis -or
ghost.exe -clone,mode=restore,src=d:\image.gho,dst=1,szeL -fis -or

Those switches are attempting to force Ghost to control how the partition size will be after the restore.

This is purely speculation, but if you are using the *-ia* switch to create the image, and then using *sizing* switches to effect the restore--this may be creating incompatible instructions--when Ghost tries to restore an image created by *-ia*--it's going to try to *recreate* the HDD structure in that *-ia* image--but those sizing switches may be telling Ghost something different!  

And, if you are partitioning to a specific size before attempting a restore--depending on how you are instructing Ghost to restore, that may be conflicting with what Ghost's original mandate was in creating the image file with the *-ia* switch!

The error being reported may not be the *correct* error--sometimes programs simply give up and report an error because it *sees* an error condition--but it does not have the needed error coding to properly identify the *real* error.

Quote:
But this is just a workaround, I would like to have a switch like "ghost.exe -idontcareerrorsiwantthisimageinstalled", especially when there are 32GB just zeroes

I would suggest trying to use Ghost in its *default* operating mode, perhaps with the *-ib* switch if there's a boot loader in the MBR to deal with, and see if it can create and restore the images without resorting to a lot of switches.

Add switches only if the *default* mode is not working properly.

The *KISS* principle!

Quote:
I don't know if ghost uses these switches if I mix command line and menu-settings

You would have to *test* this, but I suspect that if you start Ghost with a command line switch, and then over ride it in the GUI options area--the last item selected will govern--if you start with a command line switch and make no changes once in the GUI--that switch will govern.

I'll be interested to hear the results of your testing!
 

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Hawkeye
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #5 - Aug 16th, 2006 at 3:57am
 
@El_Pescador

unfortunately booting with the ghost 10.0 disk is no success.
I chose RECOVER>"recover computer" and "recover data", they both ask for a recovery point which I don't have, as I made my backups with 2003, which obviously doesn't create those recovery points.
RECOVER>"use old ghost image" starts ghost 8.0 which results in 40011, too.

Sorry, but no success.

@NightOwl

Quote:
The *-ia* switch is forcing Ghost to create a *sector-by-sector* image, which includes blank space *zeroes*, and *temp* files that a *default* image backup would normally skip to save space for the image file and speed the backup.


...and that's exactly what I want Smiley
I'm just testing with Linux right now, thats why I dont't bother re-installations at this point.
My intention is to have a script that can make backups of my Solaris computer as well (officially not supported by Symantec, but it worked), even windows and mixed disks with boot-manager. Some Solaris installations are looking for "magic numbers" on the drive, this might be the "Special" thing you are talking about Wink

If I got it right the switches in an order of increased correctness to bitpatterns are
default, ib, ia(l), id

It might be ommitted in my documentation (but at least it's confusing and not clearly stated), but does ia backup the MBR?
If not, then it would be
default, ia, ib, id
and I should better use ib or even id.

Oh, I think you already answered that, ib,ia,id it is then, right?
Quote:
I would suggest trying to use Ghost in its *default* operating mode, perhaps with the *-ib* switch if there's a boot loader in the MBR to deal with

So I will stick with ia, as id seems to backup even unpartitioned space.

Quote:
wiping *unused space* is not the same as a *complete* HDD wipe

I'm aware of this, here are the commands I use (booted with SystemRescueCD).
Clean a disk completely
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
or with progress shown (but doing the same)
shred -v -z -n 0 /dev/hda

If i just want to prepare an installed system(for example Linux)for a backup, I use
cd /path/on/hd
dd if=/dev/zero of=0bit.dat  (fill unused space with a large zero-file)
rm 0bit.dat
combined with
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda1  (swap space)
mkswap /dev/hda1


Quote:
This is where I'm confused--Ghost should handle creating the partition on its own when it's doing an image restore of a *whole drive*. 

How are you performing your image creation and restores--are you doing *disk to image* and *image to disk*, or *partition to image* and *partition image to disk partition*?

I started ghost without any switches, as I still don't know if ghost gets confused if I mix switches and menu-chosen options. Then I chose "all" on the page where you chose what to backup and thats it. Then I start a disk-to-image, which I try to restore via image-to-disk at a later point with a freshly wiped and rebooted system.

Quote:
Those switches are attempting to force Ghost to control how the partition size will be after the restore.

This is purely speculation, but if you are using the *-ia* switch to create the image, and then using *sizing* switches to effect the restore--this may be creating incompatible instructions--when Ghost tries to restore an image created by *-ia*--it's going to try to *recreate* the HDD structure in that *-ia* image--but those sizing switches may be telling Ghost something different!

And, if you are partitioning to a specific size before attempting a restore--depending on how you are instructing Ghost to restore, that may be conflicting with what Ghost's original mandate was in creating the image file with the *-ia* switch!

I always restore on wiped disks and I came up with these switches because ghost wasn't able to hande a standard restore in the first place.Sad

PS: what is the *KISS* principle? ??? Keep It Simple, Sweety Grin ??? ?

Testing is still in progress, but with one backup per hour it needs time.
leaving the last cylinder unused is not enough, although the ratio is 7.84MB/cyl.
It seems the rumoured 5 MB are dating back to times with way smaller disks.

*edit* these News are just in:
I started ghost with "ghost -ia", then in the options I chose "Image/Band" (might be image/tape in english versions) and the marker was still on "default", so it seems ghost ignores switches in a menu driven mode.
 
 
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Hawkeye
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #6 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 7:25am
 
OK, finally it seems that the core problem is clear.

I began to understand when 5 cylinders were unpartitioned (appr. 39MB).
When Ghost restored this image, no error happened and a really helpful display occured:

Partition 1 grew from  1027MB to  1033MB, but only  1027MB were used,
Partition 2 grew from 20481MB to 20487MB, but only 20481MB were used,
Partition 3 grew from 35683MB to 35688MB, but only 35683MB were used,
free space shrunk from 39MB to 22MB.

Now it all was clear:
Fact 1) the BIOS doesn't report the last cylinder, so
Fact 2) Ghost tries to calculate the last cylinder !!!

But: Fact 2 isn't restricted to Ghost, EVERY booted system (e.g. SuSE installer) calculated this cylinder on its own.

Here are some hard numbers from a completely wiped disk:
Disk label by manufacturer: 60GB, 16.383 cyl, 16 heads
Now it becomes interesting!
gdisk: 57.231,6MB, 7.752 cyl, 240 heads
SystemRescueCD: 60GB, 116.280 cyl, 16 heads
SuSE 9.3 installer: 55,8GB, 116.280 cyl
SuSE 10.1 installer: 55,8GB, 7.296 cyl
Solaris 8 installer: 57.xxxMB (sorry, forgot to write it down), 58.139 cyl

Conclusion 1: EVERY system tries to create partitions on cylinder boundaries.
Conclusion 2: Every system calculates different numbers because of the mute BIOS.
Conclusion 3: Ghost tries to resize(inflate!!!) partitions to its own boundaries.

Because of conclusion 3 it is nearly impossible to restore an exact copy of a system with cylinder boundaries other than ghosts' on the same disk. The only exception is, when all boundaries are (accidentally) the same. (or use -id, but see later why)

And now I am also near to understanding, why GRUB makes so much trouble.
Please correct me, if I'm wrong.
-ia (all) just copies partitions (plus just the MBR, not the extended boottrack where GRUB is located)
-ib (boot) copies the complete boottrack including MBR, but leaves the partition table untouched, and according to Conclusion 3 the (freshly restored) start-pointer for the second partition now points to the end of the previous partition or into unused area between partitions. I don't know what is there, but definetly no filesystem with GRUB's config files, that's why GRUB fails to start and waits with a prompt. (Just a guess, but fact is, GRUB doesn't work.)
-id (disk) makes an exact copy of each partition, the complete boottrack AND corrects the partition table to the new boundaries.

Now GRUB works and the backup works, too
(and all I had to do was to spend a week+weekend in front of the computer and get a lot of trouble with my wife Wink )


To make a long story short:
use -ib if you use GRUB or similar bootloaders and
use -id if your (*BIEP*) BIOS Wink won't tell the disk geometry.

Lessons learned, backup works. All I have to do now is to get some flowers and calm my wife. Cheesy

I just hope that someday someone will find this all helpful as this might be the first (only?) solution to the 40011er error. 8)

Have an ice a day Grin
 
 
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Hawkeye
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #7 - Aug 22nd, 2006 at 9:48am
 
maybe another "nice to know"?

I started my restored SuSE 10.1 with my SystemRescueCD and guess what "fdisk" reports?
number of cylinders 116280, 16 heads and
"Partition x does not end on cylinder boundary"
for all partitions. (But as long as it works I won't complain Wink )

The "cylinder-calculation and usage" theory seems to be right. Smiley

I wonder why Symantec don't say "just use -id, because..." on their help-page but gives vague workarounds for unrelated topics? ???
 
 
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NightOwl
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Re: Ghost 2003: error 40011 when trying to restore
Reply #8 - Aug 24th, 2006 at 10:40am
 
Hawkeye

How old is the BIOS on your system?  Stumbled across this site:   
Understanding Disk Drive Terminology, Technology and Capacity Calculations, Copyright©2001,2005 by Daniel B. Sedory


In the sub-section titled *An outdated area called the Test Cylinder*, see here: 
Test Cylinder.


Made me think your problems! 

Does this apply to your BIOS and system?
 

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