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Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:50pm
 
Issue: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment does not support external USB drive access on New Dell XPS-400 Computer.

  I have discussed this issue at length with Symantec, NIC_drivers@Symantec and Dell technical support.  The problem,  as far as I can tell,  appears to be caused by incomplete USB support provided in the Symantec custom WinPE based operating system and the perhaps inadvertent discontinuation of some obsolete BIOS feature or service that Microsoft WinPE (Windows Pre-installation Environment) operating system requires for mounting USB drives.

  As an aside, I would like to comment that I believe that a large USB external drive (if it would work) it the optimum place to store recovery-points as it allows a long history of incremental backup points and does not involve risking system damage or degradation as a result of non-professional intrusion to install an extra drive.  Thus I believe that complete USB compatibility should be a prime consideration in a product like Ghost.

  From the SME Dump utility I see that Norton Ghost 10 appears it might be having a problem supporting Intel 82801F/FM and 82801G Universal Serial Bus Controller devices as I see errors (file not found, GetDriveGeometry failed; unsupported device) on both my Dell Dimension 4700c and My Dell XPS-400 for each instance of these devices.  It looks like the system might be interrogating these controllers as disk drives.  Nevertheless, with my Dell 4700c the external USB drive ends up with mounted, but on my Dell XPS-400 it does not (the Create Windows NT Volume command fails.)

  I was allowed to download a Microsoft Base WinPE disk image from Symantec and confirmed that this disk could see my 4700c external USB drive and it could not see the same drive on my XPS-400.

  A Dell technician told me that he checked out the new Vista WinPE with the XPS-400 and found it had no such problem.

  Also in a Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment test requested by Dell, I found that the internal 3.5 inch floppy was seen correctly on the Dell XPS-400, but a 3.5 inch external USB floppy was recognized as a 5.25 floppy and trashed by Diskdoctor. 

  I posted a description of this problem in another forum and so far I have received one message from someone saying they also had the same problem with their Dell XPS system and no messages from anyone who said they did not.

  I hope it might be possible for Symantec and Dell to get together and offer their common customers the opportunity to download an updated disk image of Norton Ghost 10 to fix this problem.

MLB
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 10:46pm
 
Quote:
"... From the SME Dump utility I see that Norton Ghost 10 appears it might be having a problem supporting
Intel 82801F/FM and 82801G Universal Serial Bus Controller devices
as I see errors (file not found, GetDriveGeometry failed; unsupported device) on both my Dell Dimension 4700c and My Dell XPS-400 for each instance of these devices..."

CLICK HERE to view an inexpensive PCI-to-USB2 host controller card for serving in the interim as a
field expedient
, aka a workaround with the key phrase being
USB NEC-compliant
.  I am definitely not trying to lure you - or anyone else - away from "hot-imaging" Ghost 10 or Norton Save & Restore, but actually quite the contrary as I want to make everyone aware that the
Intel 828nn variants
have a history of inadequacy going back to the legacy Ghost series and you are not the first to stumble over the problem with Ghost 10.  Although the text and illustrations below were directed at users of Norton Ghost 2003, I feel they still may give you some background on troublesome USB controllers - and perhaps even allow you to add "another-brick-in-the-wall" so to speak by letting us know if the Intel controller is either
VID=8086h
or
VID=1033h
:

Quote:
OPEN QUOTE
"... The first table below illustrates USB 2.0 host controller specifications while the second does likewise for USB 2.0 device controllers:

...

...

From what I can tell up to now, USB 2.0 host controllers for desktop PCs have eventually shaken out to either
VID=8086h
or
VID=1033h
- and no other thusfar.  So, what I am now able to do with a fair degree of certainty is counsel someone as to: (1) whether or not they will need a PCI-to-USB Host Adapter Card despite having USB 2.0 ports on their systemboard - and which model cards are compliant with Ghost 2003 operations; and (2) whether or not adopting NightOwl's Panasonic Universal USB Drivers routine will render their hitherto incompatible external enclosure kit Ghost 2003-compatible.

On the host end of the "bridge", the useful items are in properties of only those terminal "branch(es)" on the Universal Serial Bus controllers "tree" containing either the word
'Enhanced'
or the abbreviation
'USB2'
.  Knowing the particulars of your
USB 2.0 host controller
is critical, so by following the procedure below such will become evident:

(1) go to Desktop and right click on My Computer;

(2) drop down to left click on Manage;

(3) in left pane, expand System Tools;

(4) in left pane, drop down to left click on Device Manager;

(5) for both USB controllers and mass storage Devices in right pane, expand Universal Serial Bus controllers;

(6) for USB Mass Storage Devices, skip down to (7) -
else
for USB 2.0 controllers, focus on those lines containing either the abbreviation
'USB2'
or the word
'Enhanced'
then go to (7);

(7) right click on any such lines that drop down, then left click on Properties;

(8) left click on the Details tab;

(9) left click on the dropdown menu containing Device Instance Id; and

(10) left click on
Hardware Ids
and carefully transcribe the last two lines in the window. To be overly generous, drop down two more lines and repeat for
Matching Device Id
.

While the image below is set to reveal the functional USB 2.0 controller on the Macally PHR-100A external HDD enclosure kit, take note that right above the red arrow is one of my Dell Dimension 8300's three
'Enhanced'
USB controllers - the Intel 80281EB is integrated into the motherboard while the other two are on PCI-to-USB host adapter cards:

...

If we are aware what is on the host end of your USB 2.0 "bridge", then our knowledge base certainly increases. On the other hand, knowing what is on the device end of your USB 2.0 "bridge" will enable our ability to guide you in successfully using Norton Ghost 2003 with your external HDD..."

Quote:
CLOSE QUOTE


EP
 

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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 11:12pm
 
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #3 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 3:29am
 
For what it is worth, since the question was asked, I have transcribed the following setup info by hand:

********************************************************************************
***

Dell Dimension 4700c /
Intel(R) 82801FB/FBM USB2 Enhanced Host Controller*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_265C&SUBSYS_017B1028&REV_03\3&172E68DD&0&EF
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbehci.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbport.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\hccoin.dll
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\usbui.dll   (Not found on Ghost CD)

Intel(R) 82801FB/FBM PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2662&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_03\3&172E68DD&0&E1
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\pci.sys

Intel(R) 945G/P/GV PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2581&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_04\3&172E68DD&0&08
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\pci.sys

Root Hub: USB\ROOT_HUB20\4&1AA8E714&0
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbd.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbhub.sys

Norton Ghost 10 does work on this system
********************************************************************************
***

Dell XPS-400 /
Intel(R) 82801G (ICH7 Family) USB2 Enhanced Host Controller*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_27CC&SUBSYS_01D11028&REV_01\3&172E68DD&0&EF
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbehci.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbhub.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbport.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\hccoin.dll
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\usbui.dll   (Not found on Ghost CD)

Intel(R) 82801G (ICH7 Family) PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_27D0&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_01\3&172E68DD&0&E0
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\pci.sys

Intel(R) 82801GR/GH/GHM (ICH7 Family) PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_27E2&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_01\3&172E68DD&0&E5
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\pci.sys

Intel(R) 945G/GZ/P/PL PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  PCI\VEN_8086&DEV_2771&SUBSYS_00000000&REV_00\3&172E68DD&0&08
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\pci.sys

Root Hub: USB\ROOT_HUB20\4&3767B199&0
Driver files:
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbd.sys
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\drivers\usbhub.sys

********************************************************************************
***

*I am guessing all of these are motherboard units.  The Intel 82801 devices appear to have multiple functions including RAID support on the XPS-400.

MLB
 
 
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Brian
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #4 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 10:44am
 
MLBar wrote on Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:50pm:
Issue: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment does not support external USB drive access on New Dell XPS-400 Computer.

MLBar,

Now that you have posted your specs I realise that we have the “same” computer. I have a Dell 9150.

Quote:
The XPS 400 and the DIM 9150 are identical except for the "look" of the chassis.


Quote:
The only real difference between the Dimension 9150 and the XPS 400 is an interchangeable piece of plastic with the system name on it.


So the answer to your USB problem will be in the link I posted. I’m not surprised that Dell or Symantec didn’t know the answer. Several of our members received the same non helpful advice as you received. NightOwl’s investigation and solution was comprehensive.
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #5 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 2:42pm
 
Quote:
"... Dell Dimension 4700c /
Intel(R) 82801FB/FBM USB2 Enhanced Host Controller*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...

Intel(R) 82801FB/FBM PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...

Intel(R) 945G/P/GV PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...
********************************************************************************
***
Dell XPS-400 /
Intel(R) 82801G (ICH7 Family) USB2 Enhanced Host Controller*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...

Intel(R) 82801G (ICH7 Family) PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...

Intel(R) 82801GR/GH/GHM (ICH7 Family) PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
...

Intel(R) 945G/GZ/P/PL PCI Express Root Port*
Device Instance Id:  
PCI\VEN_8086
......"

VID=8086h

... Quote:
OPEN QUOTE
The Intel(R) 82801EB USB2 Enhanced Host Controller- 24DD on my Dell 8300 systemboards has been at the root of much grief and misery while testing USB 2.0 external enclosure kits in which I had mounted various internal HDDs.  Some brands of HDDs seemed more vulnerable than others, but the fault lay in the software of the host controller and not the device controller of the enclosure kits.

If the dread codes scrolling across above are revealed in Device Manager, extreme discretion should be exercised in selecting USB 2.0 devices expected to function in DOS-based applications such as Norton Ghost 2003.  Even NightOwl's Panasonic Universal USB Driver routine will fail with certain USB HDD enclosures.  Most disturbing to me was the failure of the Partition Magic 8.0 DOS Disaster Recovery boot disks to recognize two different external HDDs linked with the Intel host controller.

Quote:
CLOSE QUOTE

Yup - "just-one-more-brick-in-the-wall" - thanks for taking both time and effort to add to our community knowledge base.  I would be very skeptical about any chances of running Norton Ghost 2003 -
whether from bootable floppies in DOS or through the Windows GUI
- on an external HDD with those 8086-class USB host controllers emanating from the respective systemboards.

EP
Cry
 

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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #6 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 7:45pm
 
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #7 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 12:07am
 
Thanks guys, this does appear to be some form of drive letter assignment conflict problem; perhaps also compounded by an Intel (PCI Vendor ID = 8086h) system interface device compatibility problem.  I set the drive-letter of my second optical drive to "X" so that it would have the same designation in WinXP-SP2 as well as WinPE and I set my USB drive to "D," left open after I merged the original "C" and "D" drives.  I do not know if this changed anything, but I have observed the following:

With Norton Ghost 10, the USB drive does not show up, but the RAID level 1, dual-drive system shows up as drive "C."  This also appears to be the case with the basic, custom-built BartPE CD.

With the Base WinPE disk, on the other hand, the USB drive shows up as Drive "C" instead of my usual system drive.  I do not know if I misinterpreted what I saw before or if the drive letter switch made USB drive visible to the Base (bare-bones) WinPE system.  It looks like the Base WinPE disk cannot mount my RAID drive system.

I now suspect that the Base WinPE system cannot see the RAID drive at first, so it assigns "C" to the USB drive.  I am guessing that this assignment is lost when a subsequent process finally succeeds mounting the RAID drive as "C."

I did observe that the USB drive was visible to the legacy Ghost program because it did not need a valid drive letter for disk access.  Too bad that program cannot assign drive letters.

MLB
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #8 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 1:31am
 
MLBar wrote on Nov 25th, 2006 at 12:07am:
I did observe that the USB drive was visible to the legacy Ghost program because it did not need a valid drive letter for disk access.  Too bad that program cannot assign drive letters.


MLBar, you are getting close now. Have you implemented NightOwl's solution?

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=11441...



Quote:
I now suspect that the Base WinPE system cannot see the RAID drive at first, so it assigns "C" to the USB drive. 

Is this BartPE? Which SATA drivers were you using?
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #9 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 7:00am
 
MLBar,

See if this helps you--

Simple solutions: USB2/Firewire drives & Ghost

 

Ghost4me  Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15.  Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #10 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 1:54am
 
Brian -

    By Base WinPE I am referring to the core WinPE provided by Microsoft (Moon rising next to Mt Rainier logo) that Symantec has augmented to create the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment. 

    At this point, my information is fragmentary.  The question I posed on obsolescence is based on statements that Microsoft relaxed some of the USB interface requirements as of Windows 2003 SP1 and Windows XP SP2.  I do not know if the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment would be compatible with any system that took advantage of these relaxed standards.

   I do not see any references to SATA devices in my device list.  Under "Disk Drives," my system drive is listed as ARRAY and it uses the disk.sys and PartMgr.sys driver files.  The external USB drive(s) also use the same drivers. The Intel 82801GR/GH is listed as the system SATA RAID Controller and it uses the iaStor.sys driver.

    In a recent test, I connected two external USB drives to my Dell XPS-400 system, D:\ and F:\.  On the Base WinPE disk, these drives show up as C:\ and D:\ and the system RAID drive is not mounted.  Neither USB drive can be seen in the normal Ghost 10 recovery environment, but they do show up as 2.1 and 3.1 in the legacy Ghost 8 mode.  For reference, the Dell Restore partition also shows up as 1.1 and the Dell Utility partition shows up as 1.3.

    The base BartPE disk also does not see either USB drive and does see the system RAID drive on my Dell XPS-400.

MLB
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #11 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 2:56am
 
MLBar,

We agree that the Ghost 10 RE isn't as user friendly as Ghost 9 or BartPE. You have an unusual situation with your HDs being seen from BartPE but not from the Ghost 10 RE. I know I can see my HDs from Ghost 10 without using drivers on a floppy. So Ghost 10 has drivers for our SATA controller.

I use Ghost 9 and not Ghost 10 but I've done some tests with Ghost 10 and an external HD. If I boot to the Ghost 10 CD with the USB external HD attached then I can see the external HD and my C drive and I think one other partition but 4 other partitions aren't seen. If I boot to the CD without the external HD attached I can see all HD partitions. Others have noted this. Either USB external HDs or internal HD partitions are missing in the Ghost 10 RE.

I think you should try NightOwl's solution.
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #12 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 7:27am
 
Brian,

    The Ghost 10 Recovery Environment and BartPE both see my system RAID Level 1 system drive C:\ and do not see my USB drive.  My system drive is a dual SATA disk array where the second drive is a hot backup for the first.  Dell appears to be introducing this server technology to its high end models.

  I am assuming that the special driver required to access my special RAID disk drive system may be loading after the USB drives have been recognized and over-writing the previous drive letter settings because the Microsoft base WinPE disk, which cannot access my RAID system drive, does see my USB drives.  Also, Ghost 10 does work fine on my Dell Dimension 4700c, a computer that does not have a RAID drive array.

   I  believe I tried my old Ghost 9 disk and it failed to boot on my Dell XPS-400. (Worked fine on the Dell Dimension 4700c)

  So far, the only CD boot disk that does see my system drive and my USB drives is the Microsoft Windows XP SP2 Pro Installation disk recovery console environment.

  At this time, I want to be very sure I know what I am doing before making any modifications to the registry.  I do not know if the solutions proposed are applicable to RAID drive system issues.  Thanks for your help.

MLB
 
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #13 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 9:25am
 
MLBar

Quote:
Neither USB drive can be seen in the normal Ghost 10 recovery environment, but they do show up as 2.1 and 3.1 in the legacy Ghost 8 mode.

I think you just *put the final nail in the coffin*--if your USB HDD's show up in Ghost32 v8.2 in the Ghost 10 Recovery Environment(RE)--that demonstrates that your USB HDD's are in fact *seen* by WinPE and are mounted and functional--but Symantec's implementation of drive letter assignments in the RE in an attempt to make them *match* what's seen in your regular Windows OS is flawed!

You have not mentioned about other components--but I'm guessing that your *New Dell XPS-400 Computer* has a built-in *Card Reader* for various memory sticks.  If you look under the hood, I'm sure that card reader is hooked up internally to a USB port.  If you unplug the cable from the card reader unit to the USB port, boot to the RE with your USB HDD's hooked up--now can you access your USB HDD with Ghost 10's various functions?  That would *bury the coffin*!

Quote:
At this time, I want to be very sure I know what I am doing before making any modifications to the registry.

I solute you for your caution--I wish more folks would take that approach.  You can use WinXP's built-in backup program to backup the *System State*--which gives you a *complete* backup of the registry.  

I also run
ERUNT
which gives one the ability to restore the registry from the Recovery Console should you be unable to boot to Windows, if the program is setup for that option, if needed.  

Also, you can use the Ghost 10 RE to use the Ghost32 v8.2 program to create a *legacy* Ghost image of the OS partition where you will make registry changes--which can be restored if something went awry.  You can even store that *legacy* image on one of your USB HDD's (!) that *can't be accessed* by the other Ghost 10 RE functions!  Make sure you run the *Integrity* check on the image after it's created to verify that Ghost thinks it's a good image!

So, you can have a number of *redundant* backups available!

Here's my original source for editing the registry's *Mounted Devices* key:  
Fixing Windows 2000/XP Drive Letters
--see
*Method #2
.

Quote:
Deleting all values will induce Windows
to regenerate all signatures and assign fresh drive letters the next time it boots
.

(Technically, you only need to clear the [MountedDevices] entries related to the drive letters you want the registry to forget, but if you're not confident you can identify the exact entries,
there is no harm in deleting all entries. At worst, you would just need to use the DiskMgmt snap-in to reset your custom drive letters for other devices such as CD drives, etc
.)


I would be very interested in your confirming that there is a USB memory stick Card Reader on your system!


If you do edit the registry, re-boot with your USB HDD and Card Reader disconnected, add the two USB HDD's and let WinXP assign drive letters--and then hook up the Card Reader's cable and let Windows assign its drive letters.  Now your problem should be *solved*!
 

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink !
 
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Re: Norton Ghost 10 Recovery Environment Obsolete?
Reply #14 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 11:57am
 
Hey - is this a great forum - or what !!!
EP
Cry
 

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