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Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs? (Read 12131 times)
absinthe
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Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Feb 20th, 2007 at 3:09pm
 
I have a copy of Ghost 2003 which I got bundled along with an external Iomega USB HDD about 3 years ago.  Back then, I created a floppy with the program and always used the floppy to successfully create and restore images to/from the USB drive according to the RAD guide. 

But I haven't used Ghost in a couple of years.  The Iomega enclosure died on me and I replaced it.  Then I replaced the drive, too, so it's nothing like it was before.  My computer is of course all new ... with 2 physical SATA drives, one of which is 120 GB devoted solely to Windows. 

I just finished reinstalling XP due to my system going screwy on me, and I've decided I need to get back into the habit of Ghosting.  No better time than while the install is new and all the tweaks are fresh, eh? 

The old procedure just doesn't work anymore.  PC-DOS hangs when loading the "Iomega" USB driver.  I've tried changing the USB driver on the disc to the one used by Windows and reflecting that change in the config.sys file on the floppy, but that doesn't do it, either. 

And truthfully, I'm not even sure that's the problem.  Does Ghost 2003 see SATA hard drives? 

How can I create a disc (either floppy OR CD) that will: 

a) boot up and recognize an external USB drive
b) see all my SATA partitions ?

I hope I'm not asking something that's been gone over a zillion times.  I've tried some searches here, but the results are confusing as they seem to refer to SATA optical drives and not the HDDs themselves. 

Thanks,

-abs
 
 
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El_Pescador
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #1 - Feb 20th, 2007 at 5:15pm
 
absinthe wrote on Feb 20th, 2007 at 3:09pm:
"... I have a copy of Ghost 2003 which I got bundled along with an external Iomega USB HDD about 3 years ago..."

I would bet that you have Norton Ghost 2003 Build 789 at the very latest, and more likely
Build 775.  Upgrading to Build 793 would likely be helpful, but it is hard to do nowadays without
buying a retail boxed copy of Norton Ghost 10.0 to get the lagniappe Ver 2003 CD included.



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absinthe
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #2 - Feb 20th, 2007 at 10:17pm
 
El_Pescador wrote on Feb 20th, 2007 at 5:15pm:
I would bet that you have Norton Ghost 2003 Build 789 at the very latest, and more likely
Build 775.  Upgrading to Build 793 would likely be helpful, but it is hard to do nowadays without
buying a retail boxed copy of Norton Ghost 10.0 to get the lagniappe Ver 2003 CD included.

EP
Cry

Yep, it's build 775. 

May I ask: Would the ghost.exe file in Ghost 10 or 11 be useful for creating bootable floppies/CDs?

I wonder if I just e-mailed Symantec and flat-out asked for copy of the newer build ... would they send it to me??

-abs
 
 
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Rad
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #3 - Feb 20th, 2007 at 11:34pm
 
i have imaged sata systems with latest build ghost 2003.

if you look around (search) the net, sometimes you can find .. like on a college site.

the usb drive should be cake. el pesky is the guru there. should be able to walk you thru a good config. might need another driver.

http://radified.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.cgi?board=general;action=display;num=10954...

u have ghost 10? it comes with latest ghost 2003.

you can try symantec, but their support is not winning any awards lately.
 
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #4 - Feb 21st, 2007 at 8:56am
 
absinthe

Quote:
Does Ghost 2003 see SATA hard drives?

Here's a discussion about SATA HDD's and Ghost 2003:

Re: Bootable cd without floppy

 

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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #5 - Feb 21st, 2007 at 2:41pm
 
absinthe wrote on Feb 20th, 2007 at 10:17pm:
"... Would the ghost.exe file in Ghost 10 or 11 be useful for creating bootable floppies/CDs?..."

To the best of my knowledge, there are no DOS-dependent
ghost.exe
files on Norton Ghost 10.0 or Norton Save & Restore installation CDs (unless there are cryptic *.msi files onboard as with some Norton SystemWorks products).  In the USA, retail boxed copies of Ghost 10.0 include an additional installation CD for DOS-dependent Norton Ghost 2003 (Build 793) plus the installation CD for Norton Ghost 10.0 contains elements of Norton Ghost Ver 8.2 which function in a Windows XP Preinstalled Environment to generate 2GB *.gho/*.ghs spanned image files totally compatible - and interchangeable - with those of v2003.

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absinthe
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #6 - Feb 21st, 2007 at 4:10pm
 
Well, as I suspected, the problem is not with SATA drives at all but with the USB external drive.  If I use the -NOIDE switch, my boot floppy will run Ghost (775 build) just fine.  I was amazed to see that it even recognized the USB drive.  I was really ecstatic for a minute ... and then I realized, when I tried to create an image, that it was NOT transferring data at USB 2.0 speeds. 

So I guess I could use Ghost just fine, if I didn't mind waiting an hour and 50 minutes to transfer a relatively small partition (a new XP install). 

I tried of course the USB driver supplied with Ghost, which had always worked before (aspiehci.sys) with my Iomega drive.  I then took some inspiration from NightOwl's thread on creating a better bootable floppy and tried the Panasonic driver, careful to change the switches to "/e /v".  That driver also reported that it was "unable to find target device" (the external drive was still recognized even in these instances; it just worked at USB 1 speeds). 

In fact, Ghost would often freeze and not run when I would try to load a USB driver, even with the -NOIDE switch.  Honestly, I've rebooted so many times that I don't exactly remember, but I'm pretty sure I got it to work a few times after a failed driver-loading attempt. 

I also tried removing the GUEST.EXE line from the autoexec.bat file, thinking that was screwing something up.  But GUEST just seems to be there to spew out text custom-made for my (long expired) Iomega drive. 

So that's that.  I suppose I could just create my images on my other physical SATA drive and all would be solved.  Problem is, the catastrophe that I'm still reeling from, which inspired me to blow the dust off of my Ghost floppy, was a result of some kind of disc geometry screwup on my secondary (non-Windows) drive, causing Windows (residing on its own drive) to be completely unable to boot ... and I mean COMPLETELY unable to boot -- even into safe mode. 

Then again, I think I have an old (OOOOOOOOOLLLLLD) 20 GB IDE hard drive in a drawer aroud here somewhere.  Maybe I could slap that puppy onto my unused IDE controller and use it for nothing but Ghost images. 

But dangit, I really want to get the USB drive working.  Surely there must be a driver guru around somewhere.  My external enclosure is an Adaptec, and it houses a Western Digital 160 GB IDE hard drive. 

Is there some reason you couldn't use the USB controller used by Windows XP?
 
 
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El_Pescador
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #7 - Feb 21st, 2007 at 5:37pm
 
Quote:
"... I tried of course the USB driver supplied with Ghost, which had always worked before (aspiehci.sys) with my Iomega drive...  I also tried removing the GUEST.EXE line from the autoexec.bat file, thinking that was screwing something up....  But GUEST just seems to be there to spew out text custom-made for my (long expired) Iomega drive..."

Let me preface my remarks below by saying that I have an 80GB USB 2.0 Iomega External HDD.  It worked just fine with Norton Ghost 2003 - either through the GUI or with a bootable floppy - using the Norton/Iomega USB device drivers just as long as I left it in the factory-stock configuration of a single FAT32 partition.  When I repartitioned the HDD, then only NightOwl's Panasonic Universal USB Driver routine would allow DOS-dependent v2003 functionality (CLICK HERE to review my tiresome saga).

The two tables below illustrate USB 2.0 host controller and USB 2.0 device controller specifications I have gleaned while trying to ensure compatibility of USB 2.0 external HDD enclosure kits with DOS-based Norton Ghost 2003:

...

...

Where I continue to need more information is in regard to enclosure kits like your Adaptec.  It seems that
the USB 2.0 bridge chipset and concomitiant device controller software provided by Adaptec may not be capable of "Windows-to-DOS-to-Windows" operations such as Ghost 2003 or maybe even certain phases of Norton Partition Magic 8.0.  So, no matter what, generalized information about your Adaptec external enclosure kit and your USB 2.0 host controller can still prove most valuable to these efforts.

From what I can tell up to now, USB 2.0 host controllers have eventually shaken out to either
VID=8086h
or
VID=1033h
- and no other thusfar.  So, what I am now able to do with a fair degree of certainty is counsel someone as to: (1) whether or not they will need a PCI-to-USB Host Adapter Card despite having USB 2.0 ports on their systemboard - and which model cards are compliant with Ghost 2003 operations; and (2) whether or not adopting NightOwl's Panasonic Universal USB Drivers routine will render their hitherto incompatible external enclosure kit Ghost 2003-compatible.

In your situation, there is only a single configuration to deal with, i.e., USB 2.0.  In clarification, let me say that it is not your hardware I am really focusing on - it is the fact of whether or not those software drivers you are employing with it could permit DOS-based Norton Ghost 2003 operations.

On the host end of the "bridge", the useful items are in properties of only those terminal "branch(es)" on the Universal Serial Bus controllers "tree" containing the word
'Enhanced'
.  On the destination end of the "bridge", the useful items are in properties of only those terminal "branch(es)" on the Universal Serial Bus controllers "tree" containing the phrase
'Mass Storage Device'
.

To take a shot at revealing the particulars of both your
USB 2.0 host controller(s)
and your
USB 2.0 device controller(s)
, follow the procedure below:

(1) go to Desktop and right click on My Computer;

(2) drop down to left click on Manage;

(3) in left pane, expand System Tools;

(4) in left pane, drop down to left click on Device Manager;

(5) for both USB controllers and mass storage devices in right pane, expand Universal Serial Bus controllers;

(6) for USB Mass Storage Devices, skip down to (7) - else for USB 2.0 controllers, focus on those lines containing either the abbreviation
'USB2'
or the word
'Enhanced'
, then go to (7);

(7) right click on any such lines that drop down, then left click on Properties;

(8) left click on the Details tab;

(9) left click on the dropdown menu containing Device Instance Id; and

(10) left click on
Hardware Ids
and carefully transcribe the last two lines in the window. To be overly generous, drop down two more lines and repeat for
Matching Device Id
.

The image below reveals the functional USB 2.0 controller on the Macally PHR-100A enclosure (note that on my Dell Dimension 8300, I have three
'Enhanced'
USb controllers listed - including the poisonous Intel 80281EB):

...

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absinthe
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #8 - Feb 21st, 2007 at 7:03pm
 
Turns out they can be cut and pasted. 

My only USB 2.0 Host Controller ...

Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller
Hardware IDs

PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_005B&SUBSYS_CB8410DE&REV_A3
PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_005B&SUBSYS_CB8410DE
PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_005B&CC_0C0320
PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_005B&CC_0C03

Matching Device ID

pci\cc_0c0320


And I have 2 USB Mass Storage Devices

USB Mass Storage Device #1
Hardware IDs

USB\Vid_05e3&Pid_0702&Rev_0033
USB\Vid_05e3&Pid_0702

Matching Device ID

usb\class_08&subclass_06&prot_50


USB Mass Storage Device #2
Hardware IDs

USB\Vid_07cc&Pid_0301&Rev_0005
USB\Vid_07cc&Pid_0301

Matching Device ID

usb\class_08&subclass_06&prot_50

***

Hope that's useful. 

-abs
 
 
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #9 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 10:41am
 
absinthe wrote on Feb 21st, 2007 at 7:03pm:
"... Standard Enhanced PCI to USB Host Controller
Hardware IDs

PCI\
VEN_10DE
&DEV_005B&SUBSYS_CB8410DE&REV_A3...

USB Mass Storage Device #1
Hardware IDs

USB\
Vid_05e3
&Pid_0702&Rev_0033...

USB Mass Storage Device #2
Hardware IDs

USB\
Vid_07cc
&Pid_0301&Rev_0005...

Hope that's useful..."

If we can make your Norton Ghost 2003 function with the USB external HDDs, it will be incredibly useful because all three of the PIDs/VIDs above are new to me.  Now, let's have another go at setting you up with a pair of alternative USB drivers.

More USB 2.0 External HDDs should work as promised now with DOS-based applications !!!

Behold an updated fusion of the Norton/Iomega Disaster Recovery Disk and NightOwl's 'Panasonic Universal USB Driver'.
 

...

STEP ONE: Format a 1.44MB floppy in a WIN 9x PC using the 'Copy system files' option. Then, label it as MS-DOS Disaster Recovery Disk for submission to the Norton Ghost Boot Wizard
where MS-DOS will be selected as opposed to PC-DOS
.  Leaving the
Assign DOS drive letter
box unchecked ensures that only a single diskette will be required for the task. The image above illustrates the unmodified CONFIG.SYS using the stock Norton/Iomega USB driver before any modifications are undertaken.


...

STEP TWO: Open the USB folder with Edit and discard the
aspiehci.sys file
file, replacing it with
usbaspi.sys
and
di1000dd.sys
as shown above.


...

STEP THREE: Open the CONFIG.SYS file with Notepad.  Discard
DEVICE = aspiehci.sys
and modify the DEVICE assignments as shown above.


...

STEP FOUR: After the modifications have been completed, the changes are notionally illustrated in
RED
above.


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absinthe
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #10 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 12:14pm
 
El_Pesc,

I have actually already tried a procedure very similar to this, except that some of the switches were different, but of course I'm going to go through your instructions step-by-step anyway and see if we get a different result. 

Before I get started, do I have to use a Win9x machine to make the boot floppy, cuz all I've got is XP? 

And if so, can I use files from, say, downloadables from Rad's site? 

-abs
 
 
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #11 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 12:59pm
 
absinthe

Quote:
do I have to use a Win9x machine to make the boot floppy, cuz all I've got is XP?

You can download one of the boot floppy disk creation files from
BootDisk.com


Boot Disks


Choose the *Windows 98 OEM* file to download, execute the program file on a system with a floppy drive (it's okay if it's a WinXP system, etc.--the boot disk will be the original Win98 ERD (Emergency Recover Disk) regardless of the current OS and file system that you are using!), and supply a floppy disk when requested.

Or, choose to make a *MS-DOS Startup Disk* using the format command in Windows Explorer on a WinXP system:

...

You can then delete the files that WinXP puts on the disk--only need the correct formatting for MS-DOS--and place whatever boot files you wish to use.

If you simply use the WinXP format command--the floppy disk's Master Boot Record will not be properly set up to boot to MS-DOS.

 

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absinthe
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #12 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 2:56pm
 
Well, it's a bust I'm afraid.   Embarrassed

Ghost wouldn't accept the startup disc created with XP, so I had to use the downloaded option. 

Target device was still not found ...

While we're still trying to find a driver that works ...

I've been reading about BartPE, and it's got me thinking about trying to create a bootable CD with a Ghost plugin.  This would seem to be most ideal.  I don't know anyone who doesn't have a CD drive. 

I'm sure someone out there must have tried this already ... But anyway, ideally such a disc would be able to access USB drives with 2.0 standard, SATA drives, and IDE drives. 

Or would BartPE have the same problem with USB drivers as we're having now? (seems like it would be able to use the driver(s) XP uses). 

-abs
 
 
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #13 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 3:16pm
 
absinthe wrote on Feb 22nd, 2007 at 2:56pm:
I've been reading about BartPE, and it's got me thinking about trying to create a bootable CD with a Ghost plugin.  This would seem to be most ideal.  I don't know anyone who doesn't have a CD drive. 

absinthe, there is a BartPE plugin for Ghost 8.* but not for Ghost 2003. The Ghost 8.* file needed is the Windows version, ghost32.exe.
 
 
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Re: Can I use Ghost 2003 from floppy on SATA HDDs?
Reply #14 - Feb 22nd, 2007 at 3:42pm
 
absinthe

Quote:
I tried of course the USB driver supplied with Ghost, which had always worked before (aspiehci.sys) with my Iomega drive.  I then took some inspiration from NightOwl's thread on creating a better bootable floppy and tried the Panasonic driver, careful to change the switches to "/e /v".  That driver also reported that it was "unable to find target device"
(the external drive was still recognized even in these instances; it just worked at USB 1 speeds)
.


Quote:
If I use the -NOIDE switch, my boot floppy will run Ghost (775 build) just fine. 
I was amazed to see that it even recognized the USB drive
.


I didn't look closely at your previous post until now--your system must be USB aware in the BIOS--do the specs say it will boot from an external USB device?

If the Iomega DOS driver and the Panasonic DOS driver both report not finding your external USB device--but the USB HDD shows up anyway--then your BIOS is giving you USB support--and your attempt to load the boot file USB DOS drivers is creating a software conflict in DOS!

You might be able to use the DOS USB boot drivers if you disable the BIOS USB support first--and then maybe it will be USB 2.0 speeds!

But, in terms of speed--I would create images to a second internal HDD--transfer the image to the USB external HDD for save keeping--put up with the slow speeds only if disaster strikes, and you have to restore from that external USB device!  Just make sure you have access to the image file on the USB HDD so it's available when needed!

Quote:
My external enclosure is an Adaptec, and it houses a Western Digital 160 GB IDE hard drive.

I'm using an Adaptec Model ACS-200 (USB 2.0/Firewire combination enclosure kit) with a 160 GB Seagate HDD, and both the Panasonic and Iomega Guest.exe work just fine--but my BIOS is non-USB aware as far as booting external devices--it only offers *legacy USB support* which is for USB mice and keyboards--not mass storage devices.
 

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