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Christer

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	Windows Update locks up computer Sep 20^th, 2007 at 6:54pm Hello all! If you find the time, could you, please, take a look at Windows Update locks up computer and if you have any suggestions, don't hesitate to tell me. I have almost worn out a set of Ghost Boot Disks ... ... ! Sorry for being lazy, posting a link to a different forum but thanks in advance, Christer
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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #1 - Sep 20^th, 2007 at 7:44pm

I read the referenced thread. By locked up, do you mean cpu running at 100%? Ctrl-alt-delete or right-click-taskbar to start task manager.

There have been numerous complaints and postings about Windows Update in XP taking a long time (5 minutes etc.) to determine if you have any updates. Eventually it finishes. How long did you wait for the 100% cpu (if that was it) to finish?

Search for Windows update high cpu usage etc on Google. There were a few targeted fixes, but in general, it's better to just keep up to date so it doesn't take over the computer, especially if it has been off for awhile.

I would try again and then go to lunch for awhile.

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NightOwl

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #2 - Sep 20^th, 2007 at 9:45pm

Christer

Quote:

If I, after this time has elapsed, go to Windows Update for a manual download. I have managed to get the ActiveX control and the new update software installed. In addition to that, the WGA thingy but it locks up during or immediately after that update.

So, I was trying to follow the sequence of events...but I am quite lost!!!

Is it the running of Windows Update that results in the problem...or is it a *specific* update that is causing the problem--is it when the WGA is updated and/or runs?

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Christer

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #3 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 5:02am

Ghost4me,

Quote:

By locked up, do you mean cpu running at 100%? Ctrl-alt-delete or right-click-taskbar to start task manager.

I assume that the CPU is running at 100% but I don't know or if so, which process. It locks up completely, mouse pointer moves but no clicks work and nothing else. After hitting the reset button, it restarts but locks up immediately, connected to the web or disconnected. Restoring a Ghost Image is the only way to get it back. The same happens if doing a manual update at Windows Update or an automatic update.

Quote:

How long did you wait for the 100% cpu (if that was it) to finish?

Five to ten minutes. I have experienced lags on other computers where the green bar rolled on and on but no lock ups.

Quote:

... but in general, it's better to just keep up to date so it doesn't take over the computer, especially if it has been off for awhile.

The reason for the system being out of date is that I restored an Image created in March 2005. I brought the system up to date by manually installing all missing updates to current and created a fresh Image which I now use. There is nothing for Windows Update or Windows Automatic Update to do but check that everything is OK.

Quote:

I would try again and then go to lunch for awhile.

I will give it more time to finish but I believe the owner has let it idle for hours.

NightOwl,

Quote:

Is it the running of Windows Update that results in the problem...

Yes, both manual and automatic sessions lock up the computer.

Quote:

...or is it a *specific* update that is causing the problem

No, there is nothing that the system needs, apart from KB892130 which can not be downloaded and installed from CD.

Quote:

--is it when the WGA is updated and/or runs?

On a few occasions, it has managed to install the "new" ActiveX control and the "new" Windows Update software that is prompted for prior to checking for updates. On even fewer occasions has it been able to download and install the WGA Validation Tool (KB892130). On no occasion has it been able to check for other updates and the WGA Validation Tool has never been run (if it runs on each connection, I don't know).

My thoughts:

My first thought was that it must be hardware related (the hardware itself or drivers) since restoring a Ghost Image (for me) has cured everything else.

It has nothing to do with a specific internet provider. The situation is the same at my home as at my friends home.

There is a second task running almost in parallel with wuauclt.exe and that is wmiprvse.exe. Maybe the latter is the culprit and I'm currently looking into that one.

The Windows Update Agent itself has recently been updated. The new files have the time stamp July 2007 which coincides with this issue. Could it be a LAN-driver issue with the new WUA? I have updated to the most recent LAN-drivers but no difference.

I will, sooner or later, do a fresh install to see how it behaves from square one, just XP SP2, nothing else.

Thanks for your input,
Christer

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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #4 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 8:36am

Quote:

I assume that the CPU is running at 100% but I don't know or if so, which process. It locks up completely, mouse pointer moves but no clicks work and nothing else. After hitting the reset button, it restarts but locks up immediately, connected to the web or disconnected.

I would disable Windows Update, and then startup the Windows Task Manager, set the Task Manager so that the cpu column is sorted by highest first, then enable Windows Update.

When you say locked up, Ctrl-Alt-Delete doesn't bring up the Task Manager window?

How are you "manually install all missing updates"? I've never heard of that; wonder if that is somehow related.

Have you considered reformatting and doing a clean install of XP, and then running Windows update and letting it choose and install all critical and recommended updates?

Quote:

I have downloaded and installed drivers for the chipset which includes LAN-drivers for the nVidia driven port, LAN-drivers for the Marvell driven port (two ports, both are not in use but they are there) and video drivers for the GV-N62128 (strange things can happen with video drivers) but nothing made any difference.

Since you are in the investigation/debugging mode, I would remove one of the LAN cards so the system has only ONE installed. My choice would be to go to device manager and uninstall the Marvell (never heard of that brand) and then physically remove it after shutting down, then restart.

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NightOwl

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #5 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 8:50am

Christer

Quote:

My first thought was that it must be hardware related (the hardware itself or drivers) since restoring a Ghost Image (for me) has cured everything else.

Not sure what you are saying--drivers will be software! And if a restore of an image to a previous time *cures* the problem--that certainly means that it's software related, and not hardware--because the hardware remains the same--only the restore of the software image is changing!

Quote:

Yes, both manual and automatic sessions lock up the computer.

So, if you disable Windows Update, the system works fine until such time as you either manually run Update or change the setting to allow Update to run on its own?

Do you know what Windows program is responsible for running Windows Update? Can you look at the programs time stamp and properties to see the version number? Can you replace that program with the original version off the installation CD or from some other system that has a version number that is older--i.e. not a more recent version?

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Christer

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #6 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 9:58am

Ghost4me,

Quote:

I would disable Windows Update, and then startup the Windows Task Manager, set the Task Manager so that the cpu column is sorted by highest first, then enable Windows Update.

That's a good idea! When it locks up, Task Manager is on top and I can see what happens, if TM gets it, that is.

Quote:

When you say locked up, Ctrl-Alt-Delete doesn't bring up the Task Manager window?

No reaction to any key strokes or mouse clicks. Ctrl-Alt-Del doesn't bring up TM.

Quote:

How are you "manually install all missing updates"? I've never heard of that; wonder if that is somehow related.

On my own system, I have Windows Automatic Update set to "notify but do nothing else". When notified of updates, I go to Microsoft Update Catalog and download them to the local HDD and install "manually" from there. In this case, I have burnt the updates to a CD and install "manually" from there.

Quote:

Have you considered reformatting and doing a clean install of XP, and then running Windows update and letting it choose and install all critical and recommended updates?

Yes, I will probably do that later today to find out if XP SP2 (nothing else what-so-ever installed) will connect to WU without locking up. I would be quite surprised if it works because my original Image is as close to a fresh install as one can get.

Quote:

Since you are in the investigation/debugging mode, I would remove one of the LAN cards so the system has only ONE installed. My choice would be to go to device manager and uninstall the Marvell (never heard of that brand) and then physically remove it after shutting down, then restart.

If only it was possible. Both are integrated on the motherboard. Disabling in Device Manager is the closest one gets.

NightOwl,

Quote:

Not sure what you are saying--drivers will be software!

What I mean is that it is either a hardware failure (motherboard with integrated LAN), which I now doubt (but still a possibility) or any of the hardware drivers (Lan drivers) conflicting with the new version of the Windows Update Client. I regard hardware drivers as being a different "breed" of software.

Quote:

And if a restore of an image to a previous time *cures* the problem--that certainly means that it's software related, and not hardware--because the hardware remains the same--only the restore of the software image is changing!

Maybe I was unclear (as usual) but that restoring a Ghost Image cures a software problem is my general experience but in this particular situation, it doesn't. That's why I suspect(ed) hardware failure or driver conflict. If restoring the Ghost Image had cured the system, I wouldn't post this thread.

Quote:

So, if you disable Windows Update, the system works fine until such time as you either manually run Update or change the setting to allow Update to run on its own?

Yes!

Quote:

Do you know what Windows program is responsible for running Windows Update?

Windows Automatic Update is a service but exactly how it works, I don't know.

Quote:

Can you look at the programs time stamp and properties to see the version number? Can you replace that program with the original version off the installation CD or from some other system that has a version number that is older--i.e. not a more recent version?

I have planned to check the file versions on my own computer and compare with the other one. I will copy the files from my system to the other one but I doubt that "Windows System File Protection" will allow me to do that.

Christer

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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #7 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 11:37am

Quote:

Quote:
Since you are in the investigation/debugging mode, I would remove one of the LAN cards so the system has only ONE installed. My choice would be to go to device manager and uninstall the Marvell (never heard of that brand) and then physically remove it after shutting down, then restart.

If only it was possible. Both are integrated on the motherboard. Disabling in Device Manager is the closest one gets.

Go into the bios when the compuer starts up, and disable one of the on-board nics. Almost all cmos/bios's let you enable/disable the onboard devices so that a user can use his own video or nic or audio, etc.

Then go into device manager and remove it.

Also, if cntrl-alt-delete won't bring up the task manager then it is likely an issue with either hardware or device driver, such as video or nic maybe driver that has the pc locked.

In your case you can also set the video to vga mode (essentially like safe mode) except that you are just disabling the video drivers. I mention this since you said the pc works in safe mode. That signals to me video driver or double nics (unusual) or some other device.

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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #8 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 1:21pm

Quote:

The problem coincides (more or less) with the recent update to the Windows Update Client discussed elsewhere on the WindowsBBS.

I'm concerned about your approach to manually download updates and then apply them to another different system. It's possible that windows update is confused or that your updates weren't applied in the right order (prerequisites). Of course Windows Update "shouldn't" get confused, but it could take a long time for it to determine which updates are needed when you enable automatic checking.

Also, I am assuming you have checked the website for your Gigabyte motherboard to be certain you have the latest bios updates for it?

At some point you have to decide how much time you want to devote to *fixing* the problem vs. reformatting and clean install. And which alternative will give you confidence that the pc is working reliably and correctly. If you like to tinker, tinker on. If it is a client's business computer, I would reformat, disable the 2nd nic, and only use automatic updates.

In fact I might be tempted to disable BOTH nic's via the bios, and install a separate Linksys pci nic (very cheap now).

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Christer

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #9 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 4:02pm

Ghost4me,

Quote:

Go into the bios when the compuer starts up, and disable one of the on-board nics.

I haven't checked the BIOS for those options but I have disabled (in Device Manager) each NIC in turn but no difference.

Quote:

Also, if cntrl-alt-delete won't bring up the task manager then it is likely an issue with either hardware or device driver, such as video or nic maybe driver that has the pc locked.

I have uninstalled and reinstalled the most recent drivers for chipset, 2xNIC and video card but no difference.

Quote:

In your case you can also set the video to vga mode (essentially like safe mode) except that you are just disabling the video drivers. I mention this since you said the pc works in safe mode. That signals to me video driver or double nics (unusual) or some other device.

I have yet to try that approach. I too lean towards conflicting drivers (WU and something else).

Quote:

I'm concerned about your approach to manually download updates and then apply them to another different system. It's possible that windows update is confused or that your updates weren't applied in the right order (prerequisites). Of course Windows Update "shouldn't" get confused, but it could take a long time for it to determine which updates are needed when you enable automatic checking.

I have downloaded updates and burnt to CD for years and installed on other computers. Never a sign of problems. I might miss updates that are specific to what is installed (e.g. WMP9 or WMP10) but the installer never installs an update not intended for the system. You can install in any order but I always install in the order of release date. There is one exception, Windows Installer always goes in first with a reboot before I continue.

Quote:

Also, I am assuming you have checked the website for your Gigabyte motherboard to be certain you have the latest bios updates for it?

No. not yet. It is now on my list. (There is always a degree of risk when updating BIOS and I always regard that as the last option.)

Quote:

At some point you have to decide how much time you want to devote to *fixing* the problem vs. reformatting and clean install.

I have restored the first Ghost Image of the system with XP SP2 only installed, updated to March 2005. No difference. At that time, too, the updates were installed manually from CD and the computer had never seen the internet. No matter what, it has worked flawlessly for over two years until the updated Windows Update Client was released in July 2007 (more on that). Taking it to square one with a reformat and clean installation is the next step. Will do that as time permits (early next week).

Christer

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Christer

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #10 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 4:15pm

More on the updated Windows Update Client:

I have compared my system with the other system prior to connecting to the internet and letting Windows Update connect and after letting WU connect. A number of files in C:\Windows\system32\ get changed. On my system:

cdm.dll
wuapi.dll
wuapi.dll.mui
wuauclt.exe
wuaucpl.cpl
wuaucpl.cpl.mui
wuaueng.dll
wuaueng.dll.mui
wucltui.dll
wucltui.dll.mui
wups.dll
wups2.dll
wuweb.dll

All these files are time stamped July 30 2007 and the version is 7.0.6000.381.

On the other system, one file fails to install - wups.dll is still the previous version. My conclusion is that something interferes with the installation of the updated Windows Update Client.

Christer

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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #11 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 4:19pm

Quote:

Quote:
Go into the bios when the computer starts up, and disable one of the on-board nics.
I haven't checked the BIOS for those options but I have disabled (in Device Manager) each NIC in turn but no difference.

It's not quite the same thing because unless you physically remove a network card or disable it in the BIOS, it is still available and could be affecting it. By disabling it in the BIOS, Windows XP never sees it at all; as if it were removed. I'm not saying it is the nic but I am surprised to see to nic's on a motherboard. Although something *should* work, sometimes it doesn't.

Setting the video card resolution to vga makes it hard to operate on the screen, but effectively removes the video code. When updating video drivers, often the manufacturer's procedure is to set to vga mode, then uninstall old driver, then install new driver.

Interesting problem. I'm staying tuned...

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John.

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #12 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 4:23pm

Christer wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 4:15pm:

More on the updated Windows Update Client:

I think you can uninstall/remove the Windows Update client. The new one (introduced maybe 6 months ago) searches for updates for Microsoft Office etc and other Microsoft products, not just XP. It's a good feature.

Maybe try to uninstall the Windows Update, reboot and then enable updates and see if Microsfoft installs the new one correctly. I usually use the "custom" (and not express mode) so I can select myself. Also, I update to the latest one, the one that includes office etc.

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Christer

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Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #13 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 5:25pm

Ghost4me,

Quote:

I think you can uninstall/remove the Windows Update client.

I will look into tat option prior to reformating/reinstalling.

In a previous post you wrote:

Quote:

At some point you have to decide how much time you want to devote to *fixing* the problem vs. reformatting and clean install.

I am more or less out of the fixing mode and into the "find out what beat Ghost" mode. I simply want to know!

Christer

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	Re: Windows Update locks up computer Reply #14 - Sep 21^st, 2007 at 7:10pm Christer wrote on Sep 21^st, 2007 at 5:25pm: I am more or less out of the fixing mode and into the "find out what beat Ghost" mode. I simply want to know! I agree it's good to know. Else, the same problem could resurface again.
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