Radified Community Forums - Windows Update locks up computer

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #15 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 9:20am

Christer

Quote:

I have investigated the updated Windows Update Client.

I have compared my system with the other system prior to connecting to the internet and letting Windows Update connect and after letting WU connect. A number of files in C:\Windows\system32\ get changed. On my system:

cdm.dll
wuapi.dll
wuapi.dll.mui
wuauclt.exe
wuaucpl.cpl
wuaucpl.cpl.mui
wuaueng.dll
wuaueng.dll.mui
wucltui.dll
wucltui.dll.mui
wups.dll
wups2.dll
wuweb.dll

All these files are time stamped July 30 2007 and the version is 7.0.6000.381.

On the other system, one file fails to install - wups.dll is still the previous version. My conclusion is that something interferes with the installation of the updated Windows Update Client.

Quote:

The system has worked well as configured in March 2005. Only recently did this issue develop. There was a new release of the Windows Update Client itself in July 2007 and this coincides with the problem but I don't know if there is a connection and if so, which.

Based on your troubleshooting, it looks like a conflict with the newer Windows Update software, and the basic hardware of this system.

Have you done a *Google* search on this motherboard and issues of locking up when using WinXP...or more specifically Windows Update...especially on or after the release of the new Windows Update software?

Can you manually substitute the newer version *wups.dll* file from your system to the problem system--does that solve the problem?

Can you rename all the Windows update files to *old*, and let Windows re-install those system files with the real original *old* files for Windows Update--I forget...does Windows automatically scan system files and alert you if it finds missing files...or is there a system command you have to run to validate that the system files are all there...and if not, they will be reinstalled. I think there is a *system backup folder* that holds those original files. I can't remember if this is available--or just wishful thinking Wink

!

Or, alternatively, find those original files on the installation CD and copy them over to the problem system after the renaming of the newer files.

If the old original files for Windows Update do not cause the lockup, then you would want to configure Update not to allow those newer Update files to downloaded and be installed--I think you do that by removing the check marks from the boxes from the specific updates when you use Update manually--Update then asks if you want to *permanently* disallow those updates you have unchecked--and you can indicate *Yes* at that point.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #16 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 10:41am

Ghost4me,

Quote:

I agree it's good to know. Else, the same problem could resurface again.

The thing is that I don't remember if or which hardware drivers I installed. There is an icon in the Notification Area for the motherboard which indicates that chipset drivers have been installed. When I reformat/reinstall from square one, I will install nothing at all except XP SP2 (slipstreamed). If WU works, I will blame the Gigabyte drivers.

NightOwl,

Quote:

Based on your troubleshooting, it looks like a conflict with the newer Windows Update software, and the basic hardware of this system.

Yes, either the hardware itself or any hardware drivers that have been installed (I don't remember if or which were installed).

Quote:

Have you done a *Google* search on this motherboard and issues of locking up when using WinXP...or more specifically Windows Update...especially on or after the release of the new Windows Update software?

That's next on my "to do list".

Quote:

Can you manually substitute the newer version *wups.dll* file from your system to the problem system--does that solve the problem?

I didn't think that "Windows File Protection" (or whatever it is called) would let me do that but I tried. I had to stop the Automatic Update Service to do it and everything installed with the exception of wups.dll (it was in use). The computer locked up immediately.

I restored the Ghost Image and rebooted into Safe Mode. All files were succesfully installed. When rebooting into Normal Mode ... Wink

... it locked up.

Maybe wups.dll is not the offending file but another one that gets installed before wups.dll. When these files get installed automatically, the installer probably has to shut down the service and restart it. I can't figure it out and am lost.

Quote:

Can you rename all the Windows update files to *old*, and let Windows re-install those system files with the real original *old* files for Windows Update--I forget...does Windows automatically scan system files and alert you if it finds missing files...or is there a system command you have to run to validate that the system files are all there...and if not, they will be reinstalled. I think there is a *system backup folder* that holds those original files. I can't remember if this is available--or just wishful thinking !

I might try that too ... Lips Sealed

... one restored Ghost Image more or less makes no difference.

Quote:

If the old original files for Windows Update do not cause the lockup, then you would want to configure Update not to allow those newer Update files to downloaded and be installed--I think you do that by removing the check marks from the boxes from the specific updates when you use Update manually--Update then asks if you want to *permanently* disallow those updates you have unchecked--and you can indicate *Yes* at that point.

It is not at that stage the new Windows Update Client gets installed. When going to Windows Update for a manual session, I always choose "custom" (or whatever it is called in englsih). There is a prompt to install an ActiveX control (the yellow bar at the top) and when that one has been accepted, a new popup prompting for the installation of new update software. When accepted, it counts percent of the download and/or percent of the installation. When that is done, I am back at the choice of "express" or "custom". It is now that it usually locks up but I have on a few occasions managed to get the WGA thingy as well.

All users have the update, there is no possibility to refuse it. It gets installed silently without any notification, either when doing a manual update at Windows Update or an automatic update. Check your system, my bet is that you have it!

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #17 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 10:53am

Christer

Okay...I thought about it and finally understand what you have been saying--you are restoring an image of about two years ago, and that image has the old original Windows Update software in it...so the restore takes Windows Update back to that original software...have I now got that right?!

So, the hardware and the software is back to that two year ago status--but running Windows Update locks it up.

The only two things that could be different...that I can think of for the moment...is some setting in the BIOS has been changed--something enabled or disabled that was not the case two years ago--talk with the owner!!!!

Or...could this be a Master Boot Record (MBR) virus????? The normal restore of a Ghost image restores the data on the partitions, updates the Master Partition Table in the Master Boot Record (only data in absolute sector 0--sectors 1 thru 62 are left untouched!!!)--but the rest of the MBR is left untouched!!!

You could try to restore the Ghost image after starting Ghost with the switch *-ib* to see if that will cause the MBR to be overwritten by the MBR recorded by Ghost in the image--but that switch may only work if you used it in the first place to make a copy of the entire boot region when you originally created the image!

Alternatively, use Gdisk or MBRWizard to zero the MBR before you restore the image--then Ghost by default will write a necessary MBR to the HDD because it doesn't have one when you restore the image--must use *Image > to Disk* and not *Image > to Partition*.

Basically, you need to use some utility that will destroy the whole boot region--sectors 0 thru 62--and then restore the image and recreate the MBR!

Worth a try???

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #18 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 11:15am

NightOwl,

Quote:

--you are restoring an image of about two years ago, and that image has the old original Windows Update software in it...so the restore takes Windows Update back to that original software...have I now got that right?!

Yes, that's correct! I create several Ghost Images during the installation. The first one is XP SP2 only, updated to current. (I install the updates from CD to avoid connecting to the internet without FW and AV.) I have restored that Image but it too locks up.

Quote:

So, the hardware and the software is back to that two year ago status--but running Windows Update locks it up.

Correct!

Quote:

The only two things that could be different...that I can think of for the moment...is some setting in the BIOS has been changed--something enabled or disabled that was not the case two years ago--talk with the owner!!!!

The owner is not computer savvy. He doesn't even know how to get into BIOS and mess things up. When this situation arose, I had to talk him through restoring the Ghost Image on the phone. To be sure, I'll ask him anyway!

Quote:

You could try to restore the Ghost image after starting Ghost with the switch *-ib* to see if that will cause the MBR to be overwritten by the MBR recorded by Ghost in the image--but that switch may only work if you used it in the first place to make a copy of the entire boot region when you originally created the image!

I didn't use the -ib switch. The only switches I use are -split=650 and -auto (to be able to burn to CD's if necessary and to autoname the spans).

Quote:

Basically, you need to use some utility that will destroy the whole boot region--sectors 0 thru 62--and then restore the image and recreate the MBR!

I assume that reformatting/reinstalling will rebuild the MBR, right? If so, I will fix the MBR that way. If WU works with the clean installation, we have made some progress. I will then restore an Image of the system and see what happens.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #19 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 1:44pm

Situation report:

I think that I mentioned an icon in the Notification Area for the Motherboard. Well, there is an icon but it is for the Video Card which I think indicates that video drivers have been installed. I was not able to roll back in Device Manager so, I'm not sure.

I went into BIOS and everything seems to be normal.

I have not yet tried all suggestions but if any of them makes a difference, I'll let you know!

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

	Re: Windows Update locks up computer Reply #20 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 4:07pm I found an old PCI-NIC in my closet. I wasted some more time in BIOS, disabling the integrated NICs, installed the PCI-NIC and crossed my fingers. Same results ... ... ! Christer
	Old chinese proverb: If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #21 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 8:45pm

Christer

Quote:

I assume that reformatting/reinstalling will rebuild the MBR, right? If so, I will fix the MBR that way.

Unfortunately--what we think makes sense and will happen--doesn't. Once you create the MBR--most programs will no longer touch it.

Even clearing all the existing partitions on a HDD and creating all new ones and formatting the partitions will only effect the Master Partition Table which is in the absolute 0 first sector of the HDD--the rest of the boot region, which is sectors 0 thru 62 will be unaffected--unless you use a utility that has the ability to edit, wipe or restore a backup of that part of the HDD.

Actually, Ghost only makes a copy of and restores the absolute 0 first sector, modifying the Master Partition Table as needed--unless you have used the *-ib* (image boot) switch--Ghost will then make a backup of all sectors 0 thru 62!

GDisk--Ghost's partitioning and formatting tool can be used to wipe the MBR. You can read about it in the User Guide: Ghost 2003 User Guide

MBRWizard can also be used to wipe sectors 0-62--MBRWizard - The MBR utility you've been looking for!

You do not have a HDD back to its *fresh from the factory* state until the MBR is all *zeros*!

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

John.

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 2072

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #22 - Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 10:49pm

Christer wrote on Sep 22^nd, 2007 at 4:07pm:

I found an old PCI-NIC in my closet. I wasted some more time in BIOS, disabling the integrated NICs, installed the PCI-NIC and crossed my fingers. Same results

At this point you've eliminated the onboard nics. Other suspects for complete lockups are usually video drivers, because they interact with the video card itself, the video card itself, or possibly bios firmware bugs. Sometimes other software drivers cause complete lockups, but not normally.

I had one case where the video card fan quit working and after running for awhile the pc would lockup. Cause was video card overheating and then locking the entire pc.

You've also determined that it is not just Windows update using 100% cpu, but a true hardware lockup.

Ghost4me Ghost 9, 10, 12, 14, 15. Windows XP, Vista, Windows 7

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #23 - Sep 23^rd, 2007 at 1:48am

NightOwl,

In the old Win98 days, you could run a command from the Start Disk, FDISK /MBR. I guess that GDISK has a similar command. I will look into that.

Ghost4me,

It seems to me that I have eliminated everything ... Lips Sealed

... more or less. Since I usually restore a Ghost Image, prior to installing the monthly batch of updates, this update of the Windows Update Client happens regularly on my system. I took a look into C:\WINDOWS\WindowsUpdate.log and found "Setup: Checking whether self-update is required" which seems to be performed on each run of Windows Update. On the other computer, I will let it lock up and next, reboot into Safe Mode to copy the file. The comparison will be interesting.

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #24 - Sep 23^rd, 2007 at 8:54am

Christer

FDISK /MBR rewrites the Master Boot Record

I wish Microsoft would be more informative--it would be nice if they simply said *fdisk /mbr* will over-write absolute sectors 0 through 62 and create a new MBR without effecting the partition(s) or data contained therein.

From reading the description--it sounds like that is what will happen--but, it is never said explicitly!

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #25 - Sep 23^rd, 2007 at 10:44am

Christer

Switches: GDisk

Switches: GDisk and GDisk32 for Norton Ghost 2003

Put Gdisk on a floppy. Boot to DOS prompt. Place floppy with Gdisk in drive. Change to A:\ DOS prompt and run Gdisk.

It's not clear if the */wipe* command just wipes absolute sector 0, or if it's the whole boot region of 0 thru 62--but the description implies that the whole region is wiped when you use the *gdisk /mbr* command--but the Master Partition Table is preserved in sector 0, unless you also use */wipe* switch. Being as you are planning on restoring an image of the HDD, I'd use this command:

gdisk /mbr /wipe

If you want to look at the data in sectors 0 thru 62, you can use a disk editor to open and view each sector: Download PTS Disk Editor here:

Sector 0 should have the boot data and Master Partition Table. Unless a virus or special program that uses the boot region for its code, then sectors 1-61 should be zeroes. And sector 62 should have Ghost's *fingerprint* and disk ID code listed there.

____________________________________________________________________________________________

No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are Wink

!

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

	Re: Windows Update locks up computer Reply #26 - Sep 23^rd, 2007 at 10:46am I have prompted the user to buy a BackUp HDD that I can install (and use) as a precaution. Until that happens, nothing much to do but analyzing the WindowsUpdate.log files. Christer
	Old chinese proverb: If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #27 - Sep 23^rd, 2007 at 3:50pm

I compared the WindowsUpdate.log files. I have cut out the "not interesting" parts and the additional word in the respective file name, LockUp and NoLock, indicates which file is which. Both state "Success - Content Install - Installation Successful: Windows successfully installed the following update: Automatiska uppdateringar" but in the computer that locks up, either wups.dll or wups2.dll or both do not get updated (I did several tests with differing results).

The computer locks up after "AU finished delayed initialization" but I don't know why. The next entry in the computer that does not lock up is "Created new random SusClientId". Could it be a registry problem?

(I found no way to attach files to this post but you can get them at http://www.windowsbbs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2131&d=1190580079 and http://www.windowsbbs.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2132&d=1190580086 respectively.)

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

Christer

Übermensch

Offline

Posts: 1360
Sweden

Back to top

Re: Windows Update locks up computer
Reply #28 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 8:29am

I updated BIOS to the most recent revision. I had set all RAID-functions to "disabled" (boots quicker) but some RAID functions were set back to "enabled" with the BIOS update. I also noticed that the previously missing information on memory mode (dual or single channel) appeared. I let the BIOS settings be as default and connected to the web.

Windows Automatic Update does not seem to install the new Client. I waited for fifteen minutes, until well after wuauclt.exe went away from TaskManager.

When I did a manual update session at Windows Update, the new Client was installed but like previously, it locked up the computer and the file wups.dll was not copied to C:\Windows\System32.

Things left to try are the MBR fix and a reinstallation. For some reason, I doubt that it will be successful... Undecided

... !

(All RAID-functions have been set back to "disabled".)

Christer

Old chinese proverb:
If I hear - I forget, If I see - I remember, If I do - I understand

IP Logged

NightOwl

Radministrator

Offline

"I tought I saw a puddy
tat..."

Posts: 5826
Olympia, WA--Puget Sound--USA

Back to top

	Re: Windows Update locks up computer Reply #29 - Sep 26^th, 2007 at 8:36am Christer Quote: Things left to try are the MBR fix and a reinstallation. Short of that--have you tried any anti-virus scans to see if any MBR virus is detected?
	____________________________________________________________________________________________ No question is stupid ... but, possibly the answers are ! IP Logged

	Welcome, Guest. Please Login