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Windows as Secure as Linux (Read 63463 times)
MrMagoo
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #45 - Jun 27th, 2007 at 9:07pm
 
Mandatory controls are the most important part of security, so yeah, by itself it isn't enough but on top of a good OS, its good stuff.

My source is a conversation with an SE Linux developer in a class I took taught by Red Hat.  Your source is some dude on digg.  So, I guess its all just he said she said stuff, but I like my source better.
 
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #46 - Jun 28th, 2007 at 9:20am
 
MrMagoo, it is difficult, I agree, to determine the truth of what operating systems the NSA uses in which departments.  I’m not sure I would place a “high” degree of credibility in either of the sources we have referenced.  If you search the NSA website, though, you’ll find many references to Windows, suggesting (but not proving) that the Windows platform has a substantial role in the NSA.

Additionally, the NSA publishes a number of Operating Systems Guides.  It is noteworthy that Windows is included in this list - but not Linux (although Sun Solaris is present).

Building upon the prior collection of posts, can we now say with certainty that the “Linux is more secure than Windows” situation is uncertain?  Really, that is the core of my point:  the Linux advocates could be correct, but (to me) the body of contradictory evidence suggests that a more humble stance (e.g., “Linux may be more secure than Windows”) would be more appropriate.

(Hubris is unbecoming.)

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #47 - Jul 2nd, 2007 at 10:18am
 
Quote:
"Gartner's research indicates that all of the mainstream operating systems, in the personal and the mid-range server environments, are roughly similar in terms of the level of security assured by the OS in a default installation.  This includes Windows, Mac, and Linux.  Accordingly, it is not correct to assert that Linux is inherently more or less secure than any other mainstream operating system," said Walls {research director for Gartner’s Security}.
Source:  Security Beefed Up for Linux (2 JUL 2007)

If you are not familiar with the company, note that Gartner is widely recognized and acknowledged as the most prestigious, independent source of technology information available.

Quote:
Gartner, Inc. (NYSE: IT) is the world’s leading information technology research and advisory company.  We deliver the technology-related insight necessary for our clients to make the right decisions, every day.  From CIOs and senior IT leaders in corporations and government agencies, to business leaders in high-tech and telecom enterprises and professional services firms, to technology investors, we are the indispensable partner to 60,000 clients in 10,000 distinct organizations.  Through the resources of Gartner Research, Gartner Consulting and Gartner Events, we work with every client to research, analyze and interpret the business of IT within the context of their individual role.  Founded in 1979, Gartner is headquartered in Stamford, Connecticut, U.S.A., and has 3,800 associates, including 1,200 research analysts and consultants in 75 countries.
Source:  About Gartner

The position of Gartner is not just “opinion” - it is informed, independent analysis from industry experts.
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #48 - Aug 4th, 2007 at 4:27pm
 
Readers of this thread may find the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report to be of interest.

While a comparison over only six months is a short duration, the report suggests that Windows Vista may have succeeded in delivering an improved security vulnerability profile, both relative to Windows XP and relative to Linux (Red Hat, Ubuntu, Novell) over equivalent durations.
 

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MrMagoo
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #49 - Aug 4th, 2007 at 6:12pm
 
There were several problems with the 6 month vulnerability report, beginning with the fact that it compared Vista with versions of Linux that were much older than Vista.  RHEL 4 was used, when 5 has been on the market for some time.  Ubuntu 6.06 was used, when both 6.10 and 7.04 are both out (although 7.04 isn't quite 6 months old yet.)  SUSE 10 was used, when both 10.1 and 10.2 have been on the market for a while. 

The report is very one-sided, as you should expect from a Microsoft researcher.  There are several problems with the way the number of vulnerbilities were counted, some of which are described here:

http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2007/Jun/0528.html

You've posted several quotes from impartial industry experts out of your own research that indicate that no OS is more secure than others, so we should be just as skeptical when we find information that says Windows is more secure than Linux as we have been when we find information that points the other way - especially when the report is written by Microsoft.
 
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #50 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 10:18am
 
MrMagoo, I wasn’t using the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report to argue that Vista is more/less secure than Linux, but rather only as a data point suggesting that “Vista may have succeeded in delivering an improved security vulnerability profile” (Reply #48).  As we discussed previously, vulnerabilities do not equate to exploits.

Your insights about the report are intriguing.  I wonder why the researcher did not use the most recent versions of RHEL and Ubuntu (assuming that each version has been available for at least 6-months)?  More importantly, I wonder whether doing so would make any difference in the analysis.  Do you have any reason to believe that the pattern of results would be meaningfully different had the most recent versions of RHEL and Ubuntu been used?

The report 6 Month Vista Vuln Report, Debunked referenced in Reply #49 is hardly an “analysis” of the situation, but more of a “rant”.  In fact, there is not a single number in the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report that this author re-computes and shows to be incorrect.  Stated differently, if there is a problem with the way that vulnerabilities are counted, then why doesn’t this author do a re-count and share the results rather than simply offering unsubstantiated and generalized criticisms?

Is the “report is very one-sided”?  Unless it can be shown that the research has a fundamental flaw or was structured so as to purposely skew the outcome, then it may be difficult to argue that it is “one-sided.”   All data used to construct the analyses in the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report come from public sources.  Anyone is free to check the numbers or summarize them in a way that they believe to be more appropriate.  Wouldn’t that be a much more productive path forward and shed more “light” than “heat” on the topic?  Honestly, I wish that someone from the Linux community would do this task so that a more informed discussion may occur on the theme.
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #51 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 1:10pm
 
I don't know that calling it a rant is very fair.  He discusses several of the issues I have brought up here as far as the difficulty of comparing open source bug reports with closed source ones.  He also points out that several of the bugs listed for the Linux distributions are not necessarily bugs in Linux but bugs in software that doesn't even come installed in the default installation.  Listing a bug in MySQL as an RHEL 4 vulnerability is the same as listing a bug in Photoshop as a WinXP vulnerability.  He does provide the number of these "extranous vulnerbilities" as 100+.  It is true that he doesn't rework the numbers and redo all the math, but that is not at all the point.  The point is that what we have in the 6 Month Vulnerbility Report is as much marketing as security research, which is very typical of Microsoft.
 
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #52 - Aug 6th, 2007 at 3:23pm
 
RE:  “I don't know that calling it a rant is very fair”

Yes, in retrospect, I agree that the use of the word “rant” was an overstatement.  But, in comparing the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report to the posting 6 Month Vista Vuln Report, Debunked, I hope you will agree that there can be little doubt which is more professional, more thorough, more factual (i.e., data-based), and of higher quality.  One is a systematic examination of a problem; the other, in contrast, is informal commentary.


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RE:  “...Ubuntu 6.06 was used, when both 6.10 and 7.04 are both out...”

The researcher explains that version 6.06 was used because “So far, Ubuntu has only committed to long term support for 6.06 and not later releases.”  See footnote 4 on page 7 in Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report.


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RE:  “... several of the bugs listed for the Linux distributions are not necessarily bugs in Linux but bugs in software that doesn't even come installed in the default installation”

Quote:
Red Hat and other Linux distribution vendors add value to their workstation distributions by including and supporting many applications that don’t have a comparable component on a Microsoft Windows operating system.  It is a common objection to any Windows and Linux comparison that counting the “optional” applications against the Linux distribution is unfair, so I’ve completed an extra level of analysis to exclude component vulnerabilities that do not have comparable functionality shipping with a Windows OS.
Source:  Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report (page 6)

The comparison of Windows (Vista/XP) to the reduced Linux builds still shows the same pattern of results:  Windows had considerably fewer vulnerabilities in its first 6 months as compared to the reduced Linux builds, whether all fixed/unfixed vulnerabilities are examined or whether the analysis is restricted to high severity vulnerabilities only (see Figure 3 and 4 in the report).


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RE:  The Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report “is as much marketing as security research”

If the research report has limitations, then let’s discuss each one in turn.  But, dismissing the merit of the content as “marketing” is, really, not much more than childlike “name calling” -- it doesn’t add substance to the interchange.

What, specifically, do you see in the report that is unsubstantiated and not fact-based?

If the report were only “marketing,” wouldn’t you expect to find derogatory statements about Linux contained in it?  I don’t see a single instance of such a comment - do you?  


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The Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report closes with the encouragement to readers “to challenge ... assumptions, analysis and conclusions and provide critical feedback – but asks for equal (or better) rigor in methodology and analysis to support the challenges, as opposed to enthusiastic espousal of unsupported evangelistic fervor.”  A very reasonable request, is it not?

Hopefully, the Linux community will respond with “rigor in methodology and analysis” and not “enthusiastic espousal of unsupported evangelistic fervor.”  Hopefully, the wait will not be long . . . .

Wink
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #53 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 11:33am
 
Concerning whether the author of the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report is “biased” or not . . .

Quote:
I’ve expected that as soon as we get into any meaty and interesting discussions, my current place of employment (Microsoft) will come into play, combined by assertions that I must be biased.  It is fairly predictable, so I thought it might be interesting to just pre-empt it and open the question myself.

I’ve been a Director at Microsoft for a little over four years now, in the security group that works to drive security improvement across the company.  For that alone, some may condemn me, so let’s dig into it.

In the engineering program at Purdue University, we all used Unix accounts and to this day, my fingers remember the key “vi” editing commands.  My workstation and development platform for my first four years of work was a Sun workstation.  Working from home after that, I used Slackware Linux as my primary workstation for two years starting in 1994.  When we turned the TISFirewall Toolkit into the Gauntlet firewall, we did it on the BSD/OS.  ... Basically, I’ve used and done security analysis on most common operating systems over the past 20 years – even some uncommon and interesting proprietary ones by Unisys, Tandem and HP.  In fact, over 75% of my security career came before Microsoft.

How did I end up at Microsoft?  Let’s go back in time five years.  At that point, it was commonly accepted by most people that Microsoft had some security problems.  In contrast, most folks thought the Unix and Linux community (and vendors) historically had a better approach to security and would build on that.  Around that time, I got a call from a respected former colleague (Steve Lipner), who convinced me that Microsoft management was committed to improving security across the company and was taking real steps to do it.  I was skeptical, but ultimately convinced enough to join – where better to have real impact in computer security?

Still, I like to be practical about security.  Does your team have deep Unix skills and no experience on Windows?  If so, your risk will be better managed on some sort of Unix system, regardless of whether Microsoft security is better, worse or indifferent.

So, I’ve been around security a while and in the past four years I’ve personally participated in steps at Microsoft that, in my mind, are resulting in improved security for customers.  Is it perfect?  No.  Are the products much better than predecessors?  Certainly so.  Is security improvement happening on Linux and Unix?  Definitely.  Who is doing better?  Ah, that brings us back to the question doesn’t it – by what metric?

Am I biased?  I do not think so, but let’s just all keep assuming I am, because I don’t mind.  If I make comparisons, I’ll lay out my metrics.  I’ll lay out my assumptions.  I’ll describe the methodology.  Then, if you want to dispute the results, debate the assumptions, or critique the methodology, I’ll ask the same of you.  Regardless of the outcome, all sides will get presented, progress is made and that’s a win for interested readers.
Source:  Exactly how biased am I?

Sure doesn't sound biased to me.  Your perspective?
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #54 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 11:51am
 
It is worthwhile to note these comments from the author of the Windows Vista 6-Month Vulnerability Report . . . .

Quote:
I am not asserting that my vulnerability analysis demonstrates that Windows is more secure.  Rather, I frequently hear and read Linux advocates making unsupported assertions to the opposite that Linux is inherently more secure than Windows.  The "unsupported" part of that bothers me, so I check for myself.  What I keep finding is that Linux distributions have more vulnerabilities, more serious vulnerabilities and the data does not support the assertions of security superiority for Linux and Open Source software.
Source:  Apples, Oranges and Vulnerability Metrics

Couldn’t have said it better myself.  Like this author, I too am disappointed by the continuous cacophony of Linux fans asserting that Linux is more secure than Windows, despite the apparently complete lack of supporting data.  As indicated many times previously in this thread, I believe the more justifiable position is that “Linux may be more secure than Windows, but the certainty of that superiority is quite questionable.”  Isn’t that a more appropriate (and humble) position, given the evidence in hand?

P.S.:  It is ironic that Unix has it roots in academia, a community in which unsupported assertions are poorly tolerated.

Smiley
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #55 - Aug 7th, 2007 at 10:39pm
 
Pleonasm wrote on Aug 7th, 2007 at 11:51am:
P.S.:  It is ironic that Unix has it roots in academia, a community in which unsupported assertions are poorly tolerated.
Yikes.  Now you are making it personal, and I don't feel continuing down this path would have any academic value for readers of this thread.  My assertions that Linux is more secure are founded on actual personal and professional experience with both operating systems, and I've provided supporting documentation along the way.  I take (slight) offense to you implying that anything I've said is completely unfounded.  Thanks for a great discussion, but we've obviously hit the limit now.
 
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #56 - Aug 9th, 2007 at 9:28pm
 
Pleonasm wrote on Aug 7th, 2007 at 11:51am:
I too am disappointed by the continuous cacophony of Linux fans asserting that Linux is more secure than Windows, despite the apparently complete lack of supporting data.

To be fair Pleo, this isn't really surprising and not unique to them. Even quite serious and dedicated groups of people fall prey to reasoning errors like groupthink and confirmation bias, and that's without the kind of self-selection dynamics in communities like that around Linux (and there are several quite distinct communities - there is no one "the" Linux community).

Really, much of the "language wars" kind of thing that programmers tended to engage in is the same; people want to come up with post-facto "rational" justifications for decisions they have made for other reasons. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong, or that their decisions are bad - emotion is, as I've said elsewhere, a useful part of our cognitive toolbox - just that the backward-looking search for justification tends to produce a lot of just so stories.

Another example of a case of this was in evolutionary biology; some years ago it was a real problem where the "selfish gene" concept was spreading rapidly, and biologists having decided that the theory was right went looking at unusual features of organisms in light of this new viewpoint. The result was an awful lot of circular reasoning, where biologists went around imagining untestable "benefits" for things to explain why they had been selected for, resulting in lots of "just so stories". It took quite some time before the standard of scholarship recovered from this.

Pleonasm wrote on Aug 7th, 2007 at 11:51am:
P.S.:  It is ironic that Unix has it roots in academia, a community in which unsupported assertions are poorly tolerated.

That's a little oversold, unless you were referring to the Standford/MIT axis with its influence on so much of the entire software world (and they also being deeply involved in MULTICS). Otherwise, I'd consider UNIX to be a classic product (like Smalltalk) of the 70's industrial laboratories that are now a thing of the past.

The main contributions of universities to UNIX itself was just exposing students to it. The work at Berkeley resulted in a lot of extremely useful code and tweaks to implementations, especially measured against the Sixth Edition, but it terms of real design ideas there is surprisingly little that I can really point to if you compare BSD to say, the Eighth Edition.

In fact, the only real revolution in ideas (at least, technical ones - social ideas being something else entirely) to affect UNIX itself that came from academia that I can think of came from Rick Rashid's work on Mach. And Mach's impact is, well... complicated and full of ironies, especially since it had such a big impact on Windows too.
 
 
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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #57 - Aug 10th, 2007 at 11:06am
 
Gee, I created a bit more of a controversy with a single “P.S.” parenthetical comment than was anticipated!

There is no legitimate place in this forum for inappropriate attacks, and - to the extent that MrMagoo perceived my “P.S.” as such - then I sincerely do apologize.  Certainly, I didn’t intend it personally - but I do understand that my “pithy” writing style could, unfortunately, be read that way.


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To the substance of this thread, though, I must say that I have reviewed all of the posts that argue in favor of a security advantage of Linux - and, unless I am overlooking something - I still do not see any verifiable evidence referenced herein that would convincingly support the assertion that Linux is more secure than Windows.  Correspondingly, I also do not see any evidence that is sufficiently strong, in my opinion, to argue the opposite.  Therefore, from my perspective, the assertion that “Linux is more secure than Windows” as a general statement of fact is at least quite questionable.  As I have attempted to convey many times, whether that assertion is true or not seems to be indeterminate at this time, thus suggesting that a more modest and humble viewpoint by the Linux community is warranted.

One has to wonder:  If Linux is so “obviously” more secure than Windows, then shouldn’t there exist an overabundance of evidence to support this blatantly apparent fact?  Shouldn’t it be exceedingly easy to empirically demonstrate that superiority?  Shouldn’t that security advantage have practical consequences that are readily observable and quantifiable?

I myself wouldn’t use the word “arrogance” and “Linux” in the same sentence, but others are not so cautious (see Linux Supporters Arrogant?  You Be The Judge).  As I noted in long ago in Reply #18:

Quote:
Under these conditions of uncertainty, the only thing that is certain is the uncertainty itself.  In other words, it is no longer tenable (in my opinion) to assert that “Linux is more secure than Windows” with a high level of confidence.  A more arguable position, I believe, is the moderate assertion that the “assumed security superiority of Linux over Windows is questionable.”

Uncertainty ought to beget humility.


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Quote:
To be fair Pleo, this isn't really surprising and not unique to them.  Even quite serious and dedicated groups of people fall prey to reasoning errors like groupthink and confirmation bias, and that's without the kind of self-selection dynamics in communities like that around Linux (and there are several quite distinct communities - there is no one "the" Linux community).

Really, much of the "language wars" kind of thing that programmers tended to engage in is the same; people want to come up with post-facto "rational" justifications for decisions they have made for other reasons. That doesn't mean that they are necessarily wrong, or that their decisions are bad - emotion is, as I've said elsewhere, a useful part of our cognitive toolbox...

Yes, I do agree - the ex post facto approach to justifying one’s decision is not at all unique to users of Linux.  The underlying psychological mechanism is often cognitive dissonance, in which an individual modifies her or his perception of the world to match their beliefs.  If I may be so bold, I suspect that many Linux advocates hold the belief that "Linux is more secure than Windows” so deeply that any discussion that might cause them to question that belief is met with severe resistance and dissonance, hindering their ability to probe the issue objectively.

In the spirit of self-disclosure, I must admit that I too have fallen prey to the same problem on other topics at other times . . . .


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Quote:
That's a little oversold, unless you were referring to the Stanford/MIT axis...

Yes, I had in mind the early influence of MIT and the University of California at Berkeley upon Unix.

In more general terms, the reference to academia was intended to simply highlight the fact that within institutes of higher education, almost any viewpoint is well tolerated and welcome - provided, however, that the advocate can politely defend the position with verifiable evidence.  Stating a personal or professional viewpoint may be “free speech” or "practical advice," but it doesn’t rise to the level that is expected in academic arguments.

Best wishes to all,
Pleonasm

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #58 - Aug 10th, 2007 at 2:00pm
 
In fairness, some Linux advocates are open to the possibility that Linux may not be more secure than Windows.

Quote:
A Linux enthusiast at the RSA Conference in San Francisco has reluctantly concluded that Microsoft produces more secure code than its open source rivals.

In an academic study due to be released next month Dr Richard Ford, from the Florida Institute of Technology, and Dr Herbert Thompson, from application security firm Security Innovation, analysed vulnerabilities and patching and were forced to conclude that Windows Server 2003 is more secure than Red Hat Linux.

"Vulnerability counts are much higher with Red Hat than with Microsoft," said Dr Ford. "I am a huge Linux fan, and I have a Linux server in my basement.  The first time I saw the statistics I thought someone had mucked about with my database."

The pair examined the number of vulnerabilities reported in both systems and the actual and average time it took to issue patches.  In all three cases Windows Server 2003 came out ahead, with an average of 30 "days of risk" between a vulnerability being identified and patched compared to 71 from Red Hat.
Source:  Linux fan concedes Microsoft is more secure

This research paper (while not beyond criticism) is just yet another example of what the Linux advocates need to “explain away” in order to maintain their belief that Linux is more secure than Windows.  Where are the corresponding empirical counter-examples that support the Linux point-of-view?  Why doesn’t someone from the Linux community update and replicate this study?

By the way, I personally hope that Linux succeeds in the marketplace, because competition is good - and Microsoft needs more of it.  The rivalry of products and ideas ultimately benefits all users.
 

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Re: Windows as Secure as Linux
Reply #59 - Aug 21st, 2007 at 11:45am
 
. . . And the data continue to show substantially higher quantities of vulnerabilities for Linux (see July 2007 - Operating System Vulnerability Scorecard).

The pattern holds whether the comparison is 2007 year-to-date, or May-July 2007 only, or when subdivided by low/medium/high levels of vulnerabilities, or whether only a ‘reduced Linux set’ is considered, or whether the comparison is for workstations versus servers.
 

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