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SATA Versus SCSI (Read 35842 times)
Pleonasm
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #30 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 4:08pm
 
Impressive credentials for the Cheetah . . .

Quote:
The Cheetah 15K.5 is the fastest 3.5” hard drive we’ve ever seen.  Seagate claims up to 125 MB/s transfer rates, which our benchmark results confirm.  We measured 128.6 MB/s as the maximum for sequential reads, which is a world record off the medium.
Source:  The Best in Enterprise Hard Drives (April, 2007)
 

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El_Pescador
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #31 - Apr 19th, 2007 at 6:42pm
 
Pleonasm wrote on Apr 19th, 2007 at 3:45pm:
"... Have you now purchased and tested the Raptor?  What is your perspective?..."

I do indeed dream about having a pair of Raptor X HDDs.  However, when I awaken I find that I am still living
in a dwelling far from recovered due to Hurricane Katrina.  So, to be quite candid, I must declare that these
Radified Community Forums boards constitute for me a most rewarding diversion and an escape from dreary
reality.  The various computers and gear you have seen mentioned in my posts during the last year or so
belong to friends and relatives who bring them to me for repairs and renovation.  I return them ASAP due
to very limited workbench 'real estate'.

My first-line PCs and most of my ancillary computer gear remain in deep storage.  The only rig I have actually
up and running since the storm is the Dell Dimension 8100 salvaged from the floodwaters and a 19-inch Samsung
CRT monitor that remained safely elevated.  Some of my computer gear, software and peripherals were elevated in advance on makeshift scaffolding that somehow overturned in the floodwaters.  This revolting development was compounded by the fact that we had no flood insurance, and disgustingly the Allstate Premium Homeowners Policy that we had maintained for over thirty years at the same location was rendered impotent because we suffered
no wind and hail damage to the structure itself.

You will know when a degree of 'First-World' America has returned to the stricken coastal areas of Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Texas battered by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita in 2005 whenever the 'crying smiley'
no longer tags along behind my initials.

EP
Cry
 

...
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Pleonasm
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #32 - Apr 21st, 2007 at 12:26pm
 
El_Pescador, best wishes for you and yours to awaken from your 'nightmare' in order to live your dreams.
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #33 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 10:17am
 
For those interested in the hard disk cooling fan discussion, the conversation is continued in this thread: 
Hard Disk Cooling Fan
.
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #34 - Apr 29th, 2007 at 9:53am
 
StorageReview is quite adamant that its benchmarks are valid:

Quote:
If one is to contest the SR Desktop DriveMarks, one must do so on the grounds that the application usage selected for recording is not representative of the majority of users, another topic entirely.  What we would bet, however, is that the majority of diehards who refuse to accept that ATA drives have a place in the world even discounting the cost factor would be hard-pressed to capture a non-multi-user trace that places SCSI drives as head-and-shoulders above ATA drives as they'd like to believe is the case.
Source:  Testbed3: Auditing IPEAK SPT

However, there is sufficient confusion about the benchmarks related to Cheetah drives specifically so as to cause one to pause and at least consider the possibility that these benchmarks are suspicious.

Confusion #1:  Concerning the reported benchmark performance of the Cheetah 15K.5 by StorageReview, note the contradictory information that is provided:  “When testing the previous generation of Seagate's SCSI drives (Savvio 10K.1, Cheetah 10K.7, and Cheetah 15K.5), StorageReview uncovered significant performance differences when these drives were set to different predefined cache segmentation strategies through Seagate's Seatools Enterprise utility.  The Cheetah 15K.5, however, returns the same scores regardless of whether the utility's ‘Performance Mode’ setting is toggled on or off” (see Seagate Cheetah 15K.5).

So, does the Cheetah 15K.5 show “significant performance differences when these drives were set to different predefined cache segmentation strategies” (desktop versus server mode), or does the Cheetah 15K.5 return “the same scores regardless of whether the utility's ‘Performance Mode’ setting is toggled on or off”?   If the latter, then one of two facts must be true: either (1) Seagate - a company known for its technical expertise - isn’t properly optimizing the operation of the firmware for either the server or desktop modes; or (2) the StorageReview benchmarks are not properly reflecting desktop versus server usage pattern differences.

Confusion #2:  The StorageReview benchmark methodology is described in this article:  The 2006 Desktop DriveMarks.  Note especially the graph “Relative Change from 2002 to 2006 DriveMark (Office)” that shows a dramatic decline (-24%) in performance by the Cheetah 15K.4 in desktop mode from 2002 to 2006.  In other words, something about the newer version of the benchmark has had the greatest negative impact upon the Cheetah drive specifically.  If there is that much change in the StorageReview benchmarks when the hardware is constant, can the benchmarks be trusted?

Confusion #3:  Additionally, the graph “StorageReview High-End DriveMark 2006” shows that a Cheetah 15K.4 in desktop mode outperforms a Raptor.

Conclusion:  Thus, I am less than confident in the information reported on the StorageReview website concerning the Cheetah drive.  Using this information to argue against the superiority of SCSI versus SATA (as I did in prior posts) may not be wise.
 

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Rad
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #35 - Apr 29th, 2007 at 7:17pm
 
hi pleo.

excellent research you've done there.

i want to reiterate my point that eugene at sr has long been anti-scsi, and that you have to understand he accepts advertsing dollars from sponsors who sell hard disk drives, which raises questions. or perhaps it's a case of sour grapes. i dunno.

i also want to reiterate that i feel if you were to use a system run by one of these 15K-rpm beasts, your eyebrows would raise.

in all my computing endeavors (and there have been many), i've only had 4 "wow" experiences

1. first 3dfx 3d pci add-on gfx card (playing quake 2 .. the gfx made my eye-balls pop out .. 800x600)
2. adding 2nd 3dfx pci add-on gfx card (in sli configuration .. even better .. 1024x768 rez)
3. first scsi drive (10k-rpm)
4. 2nd scsi drive (15k-rpm)

we can run benchmarks all day long, but a wow is a wow, regardless of what benchmarks say.

ps nice gesture to pesky. well said.
 
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #36 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 12:38pm
 
Rad, I think you have summarized the situation well.  I cannot comment upon the “integrity” of the StorageReview benchmarks, but something seems amiss.  What constitutes that “something” will probably remain unknown.

Another consideration, though, is that the hard disk performance information reported by other websites (e.g., Tom’s Hardware Guide) is based upon publicly available benchmarks (e.g., PCMark05) that anyone could use to confirm/refute the assertion.  However, with StorageReview the benchmarks are proprietary and are based upon a “playback of a trace file that captured 30 minutes of typical PC use by yours truly” (i.e., by the StorageReview author in the case of Office DriveMark 2002).  Thus, the StorageReview data is not subject to public scrutiny – an unfortunate condition that lessens its credibility, in my opinion.
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #37 - Apr 30th, 2007 at 4:12pm
 
Readers of this thread may be interested in the following articles related to benchmarking hard disk drives:

    Lies, Damned Lies and Benchmarks
    A Brief History of the Hard Disk Drive (page 49+)
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #38 - May 8th, 2007 at 12:26pm
 
Concerning the issue of reliability, a study by Carnegie Mellon University of 100,000 hard disk drives over five years found “little difference” in replacement rates between SCSI and SATA drives.

See:  Disk failures in the real world
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #39 - May 13th, 2007 at 11:53pm
 
great links, pleo.

saw this article. thot of you:

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/05/11/20OPstorinside_1.html

Quote:
Speaking of controversy, disk vendors have been under some criticism lately, mainly about the reliability of disk drives. A study published early this year at FAST (File and Storage Technologies) reached the conclusion that vendor-provided numbers on disk drive reliability could be somewhat inflated. You can find a PDF of the study here.


regarding scsi vs sata, if you think about it, they're saying a drive which spins slower and is slower getting to the data performs better or as good as one that spins faster and jumps on data. common sense should throw up a red flag.
 
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #40 - May 14th, 2007 at 1:20pm
 
Rad, the study referenced in the InfoWorld article (Reply #39) is the same Carnegie Mellon University research cited in Reply #38.

This research doesn’t say that SATA “performs better or as good as” SCSI (e.g., in terms of sustained transfer rates) – rather, it says that the reliability of the two are essentially the same.  Somewhat counterintuitive, yes; but, data are data, no?
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #41 - May 14th, 2007 at 6:18pm
 
I was talking about SR when I mentioned performance. Shoulda been more clear.

As we mentioned, "data are data" comes from (artificial) benchmarks and I think you'd find 15K-rpm SCSI "feels" faster .. given two otherwise identical systems.
 
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #42 - May 14th, 2007 at 6:43pm
 
By "SR," I think you were referencing the StorageReview website benchmarks.  In contrast, the Carnegie Mellon University research doesn't assert the claim that SATA is faster than SCSI (or the opposite); rather, it makes the observation that the reliability of SATA and SCSI hard disk drives are about the same.  In other words, this research is not about performance – but about reliability (i.e., the inverse of failure).

Additionally, the Carnegie Mellon University research does not involve "benchmark" comparisons.  They are based upon tabulations of the failure rate of 100,000 actual hard disk drives in use.

I do agree, though, that a 15K SCSI hard disk drive will – under most circumstances – outperform a 10K SCSI or a 10K SATA hard disk drive, although the latter two appear to have nearly the same performance characteristics, as far as I can determine, in a non-server environment.  Is that your understanding, too?
 

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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #43 - May 14th, 2007 at 11:27pm
 
yeah.

i have no hard data in front of me, but from past experience & research, i'd expect the 10K SCSI to have the edge in server-use, with 10K SATA having the edge in desktop systems, .. due to cache that's optimized for desktop apps.

my friends, who i visited on cinco de mayo have a 15K SCSI-based system, which I built for them (specifically to edit video with Avid Xpress Pro + Mojo hardware acceleration).

Even tho the system is now 4 years old, every time I get on it, I *still* get a little "wow'ed" by how RERSPONSIVE it is. Then I remember the SCSI boot/system drive.

I feel that, even tho 10K SATA drives may "perform" well, they still aren't gonna have that level of *responsiveness* that is available with a 15K-rpm SCSI boot/system drive.

http://blogs.radified.com/2007/05/cinco_de_mayo_laguna_beach.html

did you notice new rad server is running scsi raid?

http://blogs.radified.com/2007/05/website_move_new_server_mysql.html
 
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Re: SATA Versus SCSI
Reply #44 - May 15th, 2007 at 5:59pm
 
Concerning the 10K SATA versus 10K SCSI comparison, the manufacturer specifications of the Western Digital Raptor (WD1500AD) versus the Seagate Cheetah 10K.7 (ST3146707) support both of our perspectives:
    Average latency (msec):  Raptor=3.0, Cheetah=3.0
    Random read seek time (msec):  Raptor=4.6, Cheetah=4.7
    Random write seek time (msec):  Raptor=5.2, Cheetah=5.3
Note that the Raptor is slightly faster than the Cheetah for read/write seek times, but on balance they are "the same."
 

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